Webinar Proposal for Ellis & All BTC Members

[Guest]

OK-- Steve is weighing in on this now --- Sorry for not being part of this before. Having focused on so much training and creating materials, I have not kept up with the forum posts....

First. Guided practice in LIVE shoes is always the best. If you have attended any of my seminars or boot camps, this is the foundation of how I teach. We take live -online shoes and play them. I guide a discussion that helps players gain insight into how to make decisions and how to apply the concepts. So in part, what has been proposed is already happening. Just not to the degree you have expressed. That can be remedied.

2nd -- I am more than happy to create a workshop to accommodate whatever the needs of the players are. The most important component is to learn to apply the concepts. You cannot do that on your own because no one is there to guide you when you get stuck. So, please email me your wants and needs and I am happy to create a training program to accommodate --- and YES-- IT WILL INCLUDE LOTS OF PRACTICE!!!!!!

3rd - In this kind of format - I would also include a follow up session where players take a week to practice.(with a live online -- no money being bet-- scene) We then return for a session to debrief on how you applied what you learned to the game.

4th -- give me a breakdown of exactly where you are stuck and I can focus on those particular issues.

5th--- I would even be into doing such a seminar online for 2 sessions followed by a weekend of live play in Vegas or here in LA.... We could all go to the casino and apply it to a real time game. You can watch us play and play yourself. Moreover, I would want you to play with one of us at your shoulder. (Nothing like learning to drive behind the wheel)-- we can coach you play by play.... (this may be more doable here in LA than in Vegas)

and finally--- Yes-- I agree that unless you have a hands on experience --- make mistakes that you can then debrief === and have some insight into the compelling "Why the hell did he do that?" -- there will be confusion..... So let me know your thoughts and let me know how I can accommodate your needs---- all of us-- Keith, Ellis and I want to give you every opportunity to win. We will work together to help you anyway we can. Since my specialty is in the teaching and training aspects, am happy to take this on. Just send me your thoughts and ideas, give me a week or so,.. we will confer --- and I will respond with a solution to get you to the next level and gain the confidence and skills you want.

[Bobby]

Hi Chief,

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I'm just saying this is how the method/systems should have been taught in the first place when initially paying and joining the forum. Just giving a person a manual is not enough. It's good to have for a reference like a student has a text book for his/her math or science class but most importantly you also need the teacher/prof to teach you with examples step by step how to use such things as equations or to solve certain problems. I guess that's what this thread is about. Thanks Chief.

Hi Bobby,

I'm just a player here - like you. I joined about six months before you, and I work in the legal field. I never once got the impression that I was paying for what was being proposed here with the "Accelerated Learning Program" (Great name Oz!).

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but please don't think that you're missing out on 'what should have been taught in the first place'.

I've found my fellow players on this forum to be open, honest, supportive and inspiring. Yes sometimes we get frustrated with each other, but this forum is a rare opportunity to communicate and learn with like-minded players, combined with the guidance of Ellis - whom I have acknowledged to be a genius in this field, and a resource and man I am privileged to interact with.

I can't speak for the adminstrators/management of the site, but if you feel that you're not getting the support you need, you are welcome to message me and I will do my utmost to bring you up to speed. We're all in this together.

Chief

[speculator9]

To all interested BTC Members

First of all, Chief and Oz, I appreciate your comments and I am glad that you, and others can see the value of the experience I am trying to create for all those who interested. Chief, for what it's worth, I consider your original post brilliant.

Second, I apologize for being absent from the ongoing discussion that have happened on this thread. I have been having a PM exchange with Ellis and Steve, trying to make this work, without much luck. And Oz, I feel your previous pain. Trying to get them to understand what this member, and I think other members, desire, is like trying to herd a bunch of big horn sheep. Climbing up and down the mountains gets tiring real fast.

That being said, currently, I do NOT support the ideas that either Ellis or Steve have posted on the thread. I have been trying to create an "Out of the Box" experience for everyone, and all I get back in "BTC Business as Usual." The title I proposed for the webinar to Ellis was: ANALYZING A SHOE IN PLAY: How to Diagnose and Handle Changing and Losing Shoes and that is what I was looking for. I can't seem to get that across to the powers that be in the Forum.

I am only one member, and other interested parties may have different views. But I am tired of "Guided Practice" or Realistic Casino Conditions." (Actually, right now, both those terms make me shudder.) I have attended almost every BTC Baccarat seminar/webinar ever since I joined in 2011, and I am have had enough of that type of experience I am trying to create something completely different. What I, personally want to see created is a Baccarat version of a Philosophy course, where we get to view as spectators, and Chief puts it, a genius at work. Consider it like watching the final table to the World Poker Championships, except with narration from the "greatest" player as to how he is viewing every bet and deciding to respond.

I am not trying to "force" my will on the forum or on any other member. I simply have a very clear idea of what I am looking for and that does NOT include "Guided Practice" or "Realistic Casino Conditions." For those who have taken any Philosophy course, in College or Secondary School, your class probably started out with the question (or something similar) "If a tree falls in a forest, and no one hears it, does it make a sound?" Is that question realistic, of course not. But it is the start of a course that is trying to teach "Thinking", not "Doing." The only real difference would be instead of students discussing their thought process, this webinar would be all about Ellis's thinking process as the most unrealistic shoes, for a previous preselected system, unfolds.

I am willing to keep continuing to work on it with Ellis and Steve, and I am more than willing to see the concept, fleshed out by other members, revised to fit in different concepts. However, please remember the old saw: "Too Many Cooks Spoil The Broth." Hopefully, we can come up with something. Unfortunately, I can honestly say I am not particularly hopeful. Perhaps, and no insult meant to Ellis, perhaps you really can't teach an old dog new tricks.

If there is a webinar posted by Steve and Ellis, I will have only one comment to make on it. If it fits the parameters of the experience I am looking for, then I will announce that I have paid and will be attending. However, if it does not, I will also post that I will not pay for or attend the webinar.

We will all, individually, have to decide if the webinar is worth it to them to pay for and attend. And I am not expecting my decision, one way or the other, to be particularly influential. But, since I am the one who proposed this whole concept, it would do all the other members a disservice, and would be leaving them, twisting in the wind, so to speak, if I "voted with my feet" and did not attend, but other members thought that the webinar met my parameters and that I would be a paying attendee.

[ChiefAurelius]

Hi Spec,

I heartily concur. I get exactly where you're coming from.

If I may throw in my two cents worth again, perhaps we can flesh it out into something more tangible.

First off, may I say, whilst the internet and technology enables us – miraculously - to even be participating in conversations such as this, it is still a digital (on/off) medium. The challenge is that communication is more art than science, and written communication (such as this) is ripe for misunderstanding. I believe that such an awareness and the effort from us all to stay aware of this often significant limitation is critical to the success of any forum.

Secondly, I spent a significant amount of time studying NLP. In NLP, there is a process called 'Modelling'. That process relates to a belief that as we are all humans with two arms, two legs and one brain (although politicians may be exempt from this definition) therefore what one individual can achieve must be a result of how they organise themselves mentally/neurologically (no one has extra neurons or two brains with which to outflank everybody else).

Without getting too technical, if you wish to learn how one person achieves something that is outstanding in their field, part of the key is to understand their neurological coding.

All great students of great masters eventually learn this neurological coding through time and calibration of the master. HOWEVER, there are two difficulties. First, we are not face to face with Ellis on a daily basis. Secondly, we don't have the twenty plus years to dedicate to potentially achieve an emulation of how Ellis thinks and how he approaches his skillset.

To my understanding, what Spec is proposing, whilst seeming existential, is a far higher level type of understanding of what makes Ellis a great, great player.

For example, a great Karate black belt might instruct you as to how to break a block of wood. By stating "(a) make a knife with your hand, ( make it solid, © strike in one continuous downward motion without hesitation" he will have given you a blow by blow account of the specific 'how to' of breaking wood. If you try that, I bet you fail. At the very least, you may have to bruise your hand thousands upon thousands of times before you realise that there is a mental mindset that the master had that they had not yet conveyed. By adding to his instruction, "one must imagine that the end point of the karate chop is two inches below the actual surface of the wood" the student is able to take on the mental/neurological distinction that will lift his performance and save a lot of bruises (if he didn't simply give up in pain and frustration).

I believe that what Spec is hoping to foster is epistemology. That simply means how we think about what we think about. That is why the class would be particularly useful for seasoned players who understand and are intimately familiar with all the systems. That's what makes it advanced. They know 'what' to do to break the wood, they need finer distinction in 'how' to approach it.

The ultimate master wants his students to become masters, and knows that mastery comes from the thinking not the doing.

What the seminar might kick off in our minds is primarily to change the way we think about Bacc and becoming a great player. Secondly, it might cut twenty years of study down to ten, five or two.

Stephen, I appreciate your position within the BTC organisation and your keenness to provide a seminar. With respect, I think something was lost in translation. Spec, I believe, is not saying DON'T do the types of seminars you mentioned. He seems to have said, though, that he has indeed experienced first hand MANY of them and has not found in them what he's looking for. Hence this very advanced concept. I think that there is considerable space for the seminars that you're speaking of - although once again I'll instil my objection that such seminars are of diminished value for those of us that are spread across different corners of the world. The seminars proposed might well be of significant value to beginners, those of moderate expertise and those wishing to practice amongst expert coaching. However, Spec has clearly identified that there will come a time when the advanced player who wishes to truly master Bacc will say "I need something more".

Does the forum lose anything by having a consultation committee of 3 or 5 of the best players? I would imagine that such a committee would be a great boon for the forum as they can propose things that only the consumer/member of the forum is thinking. I would have loved for NormA to have been a part of such a guidance group. Their very first project could be to assist to deliver specifications/wishes for this very seminar/training that Spec is proposing. Then, Stephen, it would be over to you to project manage it to fruition.

Everybody's happy.

This small group (Spec's right again about 'too many cooks') might meet over Skype, and provide a fount of new ideas and concepts that might well take this forum to the next level.

Also, final thought for Keith and Ellis, if Spec's idea of presenting a way to train out the model of how a genius like Ellis approaches the game (and the same thing could and should be done for BJ!!!) is successful - mindful that this is not guaranteed - such a model in book form would be ridiculously profitable.

Time for someone else to weigh in.

Thanks for taking your time to read my verrrrry lengthy post.

Chief

[Guest]

Ha, well with all that being said, I agree with all of it. But I think some are missing the point.

Look, all of the instruction here is based on real shoes in real casinos under real conditions. Every thing I do in a casino is designed to beat the casino strategy - whatever it happens to be.

We let the shoe tell us what to do. Sound familiar?

I can't instruct if the approach is decided before we see the shoe.

So, OK, we can't do a tote board canvass before we play a shoe in a webinar. We also can't do table selection. We can't pick the most biased table to play.

But we CAN at the very least play real shoes and let the shoe at hand tell us what to do, what approach to use, what system to play. where to start and where to get out, what mode to play and when to switch. What do I look at? What are my triggers? What is SAP telling me? What is PvB telling me. Generally what is the shoe telling me? That is how we ACTUALLY play for real for money. THAT is what we need to duplicate for any instruction to be valid.

Therefore, the shoes can't come from me. They must be real shoes from real players.

All I want to know is the same things I would automatically know playing for real.

Believe it or not, when I play for real I know what casino I'm in. I know what kind of cards they are dealing. I know what play number we are at. It is right there on the tote board. I never decide what I'm going to play before I see the shoe. Ever heard that before? THEN I let the shoe tell me what to do. Everything I teach is based on those factors. I can't instruct if I'm limited to an approach before I ever see the shoe. No such instruction would be the least bit valid - like bluetri said - useless.

So, here's what we do. A member picks a shoe. He tells me what casino it's from either real or on line, how many plays he recorded. regular or preshuffled cards - stuff I would automatically know playing for real. He reads the shoe to us one play at a time. Nobody knows the next play except him. Then I can tell you what I would do and why.

Guys, I can't teach with my hands tied. I play what I see. So don't be telling me what to play before I see the shoe. Let me decide what to play from the shoe itself. Let's make it as real world as we possibly can. That's all I'm saying. Isn't that what you want to see me do?

[ECD]

Therefore, the shoes can't come from me. They must be real shoes from real players.

So, here's what we do. A member picks a shoe. He tells me what casino it's from either real or on line, how many plays he recorded. regular or preshuffled cards - stuff I would automatically know playing for real. He reads the shoe to us one play at a time. Nobody knows the next play except him. Then I can tell you what I would do and why.

This seems like a good approach to me. Will be just like watching Ellis play in the casino, except he can stop the deal and explain what he is doing. This is how you learn from the master. We no shortage of real casino games for this.

[speculator9]

Wow, Chief, that was one hell of an erudite post. And, I have to say, you hit the essence of what I have been trying to accomplish a lot better than I ever possible could.

Unfortunately, that being said, it looks like all the effort will go for naught. My wife tells me I am stubborn, but like any mule, if you get hit between the eyes with a sledgehammer enough times you eventually get the idea. Based on Ellis's recent final blow, I now officially give up and bow out of this effort.

What will turn out to be my final PM exchange with Ellis indicates that is unable or unwilling to grasp what I have proposed (and Chief so eloquently explained) and is in the process of creating something that, he thinks based solely on his opinions, the members want. That is, of course, ignoring completely what at least a few of the members have been trying to tell him.

You have seen his new post about the only way he is willing to do this and I am sure the advertising hype will make it sound awesome, but, unfortunately, like most other BTC things it will be, to me, contrived and not a particularly good learning experience. The most informative experiences I've have ever had, and I think a lot of people would agree, tend to be based on the times when you are on losing, at anything, not winning. Back when I traded futures on the CBOE and CMT, another trader who made more money than any of us can dream about told me one day; "The worst thing that can happen to a trader is winning his first trades. He will learn nothing from that."

Other members may be willing to pay to attend, to be shown what is "right" rather than trying to understand how to handle the times when everything goes "wrong." I referenced the Poker Championships in my last post for a simple, but I think very good reason. The greatest players rarely ever win the bracelet. That's because the "Luck of the Draw" is against them even in game based mostly on skill. I don't care if you look for table biases, shuffle patterns, shoe histories, etc. When you sit down to play, nobody and I mean nobody (except maybe the Almighty, who I am sure does not care), knows what is going to be dealt from a shoe next. Each member will have to decide whether his approach will turn out to be right or not, and I wish him. and everyone else the best.

I know I will not pay for or attend the Ellis's proposed version of the webinar, since I now almost irrevocably believe that Ellis, for all his Baccarat brilliance, cannot embrace any new teaching concepts. Ellis's view of what the BTC members want is based on, (to crib from Patrick Swayze,) "It's either my way or the highway" It's only my opinion, but I feel webinar he is working on will be just another repetitive version of something BTC has done many times before, and not the brand new experience I was hoping to see created. But, for every interested member that may choose to attend, I hope it will turn out to be worthwhile.

Thanks for the support, but I am done wasting my time and breath (typing actually). I wish it could have ended differently but, for now, I am going back to concentrating on my actual Baccarat play with the information I already acquired. Best of Luck to everyone at the tables. Sayonara.

[ECD]

Hey Spec,

Understand your frustration, but I am mildly optomistic this could be a good learning experience for many players, even if it doesn't perfectly line up with what you are looking for.

Most importantly, focusing on your bac play represents the highest and best use of your time and effort. You have already discovered how MDB+ can and does win -- and you already know it WELL. Go forth and win! I'd welcome the chance to play with you again in Vegas! You will be playing black before you know it!

[BronxAl]

I fully concur...

I also fully realise that not everyone is in the same situation...but for me...$200 for several hours of teaching directly from the "Best there has ever been" is cheap as chips (no pun intended)

Let's get this in perspective...I paid $50/hour for several years to get my daughter tutored...I pay $80/hour to get my grass slashed...my damn plumber charges $80 call out fee before he gets out of his van and then $80/hour (we won't talk about travelling time GRRR) ... my solicitor charges $180/hour to keep me out of gaol (for most likely me murdering my plumber)...my accountant (who never leaves his house) $120/hour (and I still cop direct calls from the Tax Department)...and even a damn painter wants to charge me $70/hour to paint my house (approx 8 weeks work when he bothers to turn up)

So...what's it gonna cost us for the benefit of several hours of Ellis's time?...effectively $20 - $40/hour...GO FIGURE!

If you don't believe it will benefit you personally to utilise this teaching tool, then that's fair enough (I am sort of in that boat...but I can't be sure and for the sake of the price of a half decent meal in a restaurant, I am not prepared to risk missing out on what might be a vital piece of missing information to further improve my play)

But if it's the cost alone....then seriously...you should scrap any thoughts of playing Baccarat as a professional and consider playing Bingo at your local church hall

Just my 2 cents worth

Oz

That is cheap my damn plumber charges $140 call out fee. What's worse is my electrician @160/hr.

$200 for several hours of teaching from Ellis is reasonable. The return on investment is well worth it.

[Guest]

eehheemmm--- excuse me -- but -- isn't this sort of what we have been doing all along in the NOR and MDB Boot Camps? Only using live shoes?

[Guest]

Sorry-- but I gotta add one more thing -- hey spec--- I think Ellis has given a lot to help us all. I personally find it offensive the way you are referring to him. Your antagonism is not appreciated nor in anyway professional. He is only a phone call away and makes himself available to you. We have many seminars that have proven to be extremely helpful to players and our forums are filled with helpful people. So to hear this kind of language and posture towards Ellis is something I personally take issue with and will not tolerate. It is disrespectful to the great people in our forums as well as to Ellis.

[ECD]

OK-- Steve is weighing in on this now --- Sorry for not being part of this before. Having focused on so much training and creating materials, I have not kept up with the forum posts....

First. Guided practice in LIVE shoes is always the best. If you have attended any of my seminars or boot camps, this is the foundation of how I teach. We take live -online shoes and play them. I guide a discussion that helps players gain insight into how to make decisions and how to apply the concepts. So in part, what has been proposed is already happening. Just not to the degree you have expressed. That can be remedied.

2nd -- I am more than happy to create a workshop to accommodate whatever the needs of the players are. The most important component is to learn to apply the concepts. You cannot do that on your own because no one is there to guide you when you get stuck. So, please email me your wants and needs and I am happy to create a training program to accommodate --- and YES-- IT WILL INCLUDE LOTS OF PRACTICE!!!!!!

3rd - In this kind of format - I would also include a follow up session where players take a week to practice.(with a live online -- no money being bet-- scene) We then return for a session to debrief on how you applied what you learned to the game.

4th -- give me a breakdown of exactly where you are stuck and I can focus on those particular issues.

5th--- I would even be into doing such a seminar online for 2 sessions followed by a weekend of live play in Vegas or here in LA.... We could all go to the casino and apply it to a real time game. You can watch us play and play yourself. Moreover, I would want you to play with one of us at your shoulder. (Nothing like learning to drive behind the wheel)-- we can coach you play by play.... (this may be more doable here in LA than in Vegas)

and finally--- Yes-- I agree that unless you have a hands on experience --- make mistakes that you can then debrief === and have some insight into the compelling "Why the hell did he do that?" -- there will be confusion..... So let me know your thoughts and let me know how I can accommodate your needs---- all of us-- Keith, Ellis and I want to give you every opportunity to win. We will work together to help you anyway we can. Since my specialty is in the teaching and training aspects, am happy to take this on. Just send me your thoughts and ideas, give me a week or so,.. we will confer --- and I will respond with a solution to get you to the next level and gain the confidence and skills you want.

It seems to me Steve that you are missing the point here...It's Ellis's head that we want to get inside...not yours

For all your undoubted abilities and teaching experience ...Ellis is still "The Man"

With due respect...there will only ever be one Ellis.

[Guest]

I agree-- Ellis is the only "Ellis." My suggestion would be that Ellis handle the live play. After we cover any theory and make sure people understand the concepts, we would have Ellis do exactly what we do in our training sessions. That is, have live play where he talks us through the thinking process of each hand. Also, perhaps we should have a "live play" session every few weeks where he does just that---- we boot up a live game and he moderates it for us. Then we can get his thoughts and ideas in a live situation......That being said,,,, please know that everything I do and teach is directly from Ellis and Keith. But again--- if people need reinforcement on the ideas, this is a great way to better learn the concepts and practice them with Ellis as the final coach......

[ChiefAurelius]

Sorry-- but I gotta add one more thing -- hey spec--- I think Ellis has given a lot to help us all. I personally find it offensive the way you are referring to him. Your antagonism is not appreciated nor in anyway professional. He is only a phone call away and makes himself available to you. We have many seminars that have proven to be extremely helpful to players and our forums are filled with helpful people. So to hear this kind of language and posture towards Ellis is something I personally take issue with and will not tolerate. It is disrespectful to the great people in our forums as well as to Ellis.

Hi Stephen,

I think that Spec is just frustrated. He did say that he has attended a large amount of the seminars and Vegas trips and was seeking something more advanced. That seems to mean that he's not randomly or arbitrarily expressing frustration. It's simply the case that having been a loyal customer and supporter (according to his statements) he feels the need for something else to advance us all in our baccarat quest. We've all seen plenty uninformed and disgruntled members or guests that clearly have not done the work, the reading or the practice, throwing around barbed insults that are disrespectful and malicious. I'm sure that in review he wouldn't intend to disrespect Ellis and the monumental effort that Ellis puts in to this forum and us as players.

(And might I add by way of the above, that (Ellis this is to you) there is certainly not enough that we can do to thank you for the hours and hours that you put into our development. I know that there are a million other things that you could be doing but am eternally grateful that you spend many of your days listening to our frustrations and reviewing how some nasty casino handed our hat to us. Thanks a million Big E.)

To be honest I think Spec was simply stating that he wanted to understand more of the mental framework of where Ellis' thought processes were coming from. I'm sure that we all can understand that the limited nature of written posts do sometimes lead words to not fully portray our feelings and thoughts. It's not the same as sitting around the coffee table where someone's gestures and tone of voice can easily illustrate the difference between frustration, the feeling of being misunderstood, and anger/contempt.

I think that we all need to appreciate that intent can be misinterpreted in any forum. It's a limitation that comes with the method of communication.

Having said that, I think that you, Stephen, have added a significant corollary concept to this debate. Having a 'Live Play' session every few weeks is a collossal idea. I think that that is a significant step forward and a way to further refine the play of the advanced players on the forum. Excellent idea. That alone could take this forum to the next level.

Chief

[Gil]

ozscouser1,

I agree with your statement. I also want to get inside Ellis' mind. It would take some miniaturization like what done in the 1966 movie "Fantastic Voyage" with Raquel Welch and Stephen Boyd.

Gil