MDB 2Hi Net Bet - Ellis

[Guest]

TJFILES and myself have asked Ellis , or anyone else , a couple of times as to where the progress is with MDB 2 Hi .

Not even a simple responce from Ellis ? Such as, "still working on" ! Maybe he has not seen us asking , sometimes this thread is backgrounded by other MDB postings . Looks like this potential method , like others , that have started out looking great , just disappear and never addressed again ! One that comes to mind ....Internet Play....nothing on that lately ! It was hot and heavy there for awhile........than no further discussion !!

Maybe its just me ? Or do others agree ?

thanks

It is a simple system but a very complex design like all 2Hi systems - full of entrapments. And it is catching me at a time when a lot of other stuff is demanding my attention along with health issues. These designs don't come off the top of my head you know.

Here is what I know:

Each side should wait for a circle to start.

We need two modes - a chop mode and a streak mode

We start every shoe in the chop mode.

The chop mode has both entries every play - no open blanks.

While I started with a 1234 with no mandarory 2 for the chop mode. I don't like it.

It loses too much on the first 4+ and evey shoe has a first 4+.

I'm thinking the chop progression needs to be 123123 With a mandatory 2.

That only gets in trouble if the shoe produces a 6 before it produces a 4 or 5 which is quite rare.

But I'm also looking at a 123 with a mandatory 2. That usually loses 1 unit to every 3 at the point of the 3rd circle, breaks even at the point of a 4th circle and makes money on a 5 or more.

A 4th circle is our streak mode trigger. Once in the streak mode, we make money on ALL runs because we only have 1 entry against a run following a 2+ (half of all runs) and 2 entries against a run following a 1 (the other half)

I'm thinking the streak mode prog need only be 123 with a mandatory 2.

It would be simplest if we could make both progs the same - but would that be best?

Our goal is +6 which is a high goal for a 2Hi system but I think doable.

Some (choppy) shoes we will hit our +6 while still in the starting chop mode.

Most, we hit our +6 in the initial streak mode.

Picture a 4iar following a 2 for instance: Our entries against the 5 are usually 1. Our entries ON the 5 are usually 21212. So we make 5 units on the 5 at the point of the 5th circle. So any 5+ will usually put us over the top if we hit it in the streak mode.

But what if after an initial run or two, the shoe goes back to chop BEFORE we hit +6.

See, so we need a signal to go back to Chop Mode.

I'm thinking a CONFIRMED 1,2 or a 2,1 or a 2,2 is our signal to go back to Chop mode - while our streak mode signal remains any 4th circle in a row.

Depending on exactly how we treat mandatory 2s both modes make 1 unit on 1 iars = +18

As well as 2 units on 2iars which brings us to +36.

Now it would seem that all we need do is keep from losing more than 28 units on 3 or mores.

Well we don't lose any money on 3+s that we hit while in the streak mode.

And we make money on chop while in the streak mode.

So it seems that we only incur losses when we hit a streak while in chop mode.

So I'm thinking, is there some trick we could pull to eliminate the chop mode altogether.

Something like only initiating a mandatory 2 after a run has gone 3???

Guys are having enough trouble getting MDB+ right and it is completely mechanical with NO modes.

I'd like to eliminate modes altogether if we can do this and still win most shoes???

Maybe I'll call it the Excederin system.

[Guest]

You know, I think we were very close to the Ultimate Net Bet system under the existing Ultimate rules.

As one player put it: it wins a lot of shoes.

Maybe that is the right staring point. It wouldn't take much to make it 2Hi.

Just thinking out loud.

[bighorn]

Thank you for the update!

[Guest]

Thank you for the update!

Ha, such as it was. I immediately got calls from two testers. One said I was much better off when I was betting twice under a 1, 3 times under a 2 and once under 3+s.

I think he's right! I'm going to take a second look at that. All we lose to is a 2 followed by a 3+. The odds of that are 9/4. But, at least I only have one problem to deal with. Maybe I can fix it???

It wins money fast and in most cases we are already out of the shoe when it comes up. Besides, we don't lose enough on it to worry about.

[PurpleInk]

Picture a 4iar following a 2 for instance: Our entries against the 5 are usually 1. Our entries ON the 5 are usually 21212. So we make 5 units on the 5 at the point of the 5th circle. So any 5+ will usually put us over the top if we hit it in the streak mode.

Could someone post a visual if possible showing how it this uses the stated rules. I believe I have pieces of this correct but I m not sure. Thanks for the update and for posting.

[johnnycs1]

Thanks for the updates !! Looking good !

Thanks ELLIS !

[trbfla]

Hey Guys,

Been looking at this new system of play and testing a few things on paper. This new system works fine on almost any type of shoe except when a lot of 2's are together. So maybe a good trigger to switch to OTB4L is when there has been 2 confirmed 2's. Then maybe switching back to Ultimate when 2 other events are confirmed.

Also, I'm thinking that 1-1-2-3 progression may work well and looking at least a +10 units as a goal. I will continue to test this with the shoes I have to see the results I get. If anyone wishes to also try this and comment, it would help.

Let me know what you guys think.

Master p what is this new method you are talking about? Where are the rules

Thank you

[MasterP]

Master p what is this new method you are talking about? Where are the rules

Thank you

Hi trbfla,

The rules that I have been using for testing are as follows :

1. Only start betting entries on a side under a circle.

2. Anytime losing 2 entries under a sporadic 1 or last 1 in a ZZ, STOP entries on that side until it produces a 2iar.

3. Anytime losing 1 entry under a 2+, STOP entries on that side until it produces a entry on that side.

4. Use 1-1-2-3 progression with a goal of 10 units ( a goal of 5 units is probably more reasonable ). When you win in the progression go back to start of progression.

These were the key rules for betting. I had wanted to add switching to OTB4L with 2 confirmed 2's and then back to Ultimate Net Betting with 2 other confirmed events, but I have not tested this part yet. Also, looking at some of the other comments on this thread, I like Ellis's idea of keeping the net betting system simple. Switching to another system like OTB4L and coming back also adds complexity.

I will work on the a 2Hi progression once the Ultimate Net betting Rules are solid. This way the only thing that could change is the unit goal amount.

Hope this helps.

[johnnycs1]

Ellis or Anyone.....

Any Ultimate Net Betting rules using the 2 Hi Progression as yet ?

Could it be the ultimate method of all time !

Thank You .

[ddbcinti]

Will someone please post 2 or 3 shoes played with this method. This would be so helpful. I want to see if I am understanding the rules correctly before I start testing some of my shoes. Thanks!

[SteveO]

Will someone please post 2 or 3 shoes played with this method. This would be so helpful. I want to see if I am understanding the rules correctly before I start testing some of my shoes. Thanks!

Just to be sure, I went back and READ every message in this thread. This particular method has not been released yet.

[BronxAl]

Ellis or Anyone.....

Any Ultimate Net Betting rules using the 2 Hi Progression as yet ?

Could it be the ultimate method of all time !

Thank You .

Ultimate Net Betting does win a lot of shoes. This weekend I'll be at the Tampa Hard Rock and I am going to use an up as you win 3-step, 2 Hi Progression 1-2-2 on repeats only and 1-2 on chops.

This progression only loses after five attempts on repeats before completing the series.

After winning and completing the 3-step series you're up 5 units. Then, you start the series over again.

If you win the first 1-2 units and lose the third 2-unit bet you gained 1-unit. You then, start over again.

Keep in mind you follow the Ultimate Net Betting rules with one major change, (ANYTIME YOU LOSE (1 BET) to a CHOP And an (OT) PATTERN APPEARS TWICE. THEN, BET (OT) UNTIL IT LOSES (2 BETS) using the 3-step series, OTHERWISE BET REPEATS.

NOTE: PLAYER and BANKER will be independent of each other using the 3-step series.

I have been using this method with online casinos having great success averaging 10+ units but, not in a brick and mortar casino.

I feel confident this method will work and report on results.

[trillion]

FrontAl, would you please post some shoes with explanations of how you are placing your bets according to the rules? Pertaining to the shoes that you see this weekend @ the Hard Rock Casino in Tampa.

Thanks and best of luck with this approach!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ultimate Net Betting does win a lot of shoes. This weekend I'll be at the Tampa Hard Rock and I am going to use an up as you win 3-step, 2 Hi Progression 1-2-2 on repeats only and 1-2 on chops.

This progression only loses after five attempts on repeats before completing the series.

After winning and completing the 3-step series you're up 5 units. Then, you start the series over again.

If you win the first 1-2 units and lose the third 2-unit bet you gained 1-unit. You then, start over again.

Keep in mind you follow the Ultimate Net Betting rules with one major change, (ANYTIME YOU LOSE (1 BET) to a CHOP And an (OT) PATTERN APPEARS TWICE. THEN, BET (OT) UNTIL IT LOSES (2 BETS) using the 3-step series, OTHERWISE BET REPEATS.

NOTE: PLAYER and BANKER will be independent of each other using the 3-step series.

I have been using this method with online casinos having great success averaging 10+ units but, not in a brick and mortar casino.

I feel confident this method will work and report on results.

[trbfla]

Ultimate Net Betting does win a lot of shoes. This weekend I'll be at the Tampa Hard Rock and I am going to use an up as you win 3-step, 2 Hi Progression 1-2-2 on repeats only and 1-2 on chops.

After winning and completing the 3-step series you're up 5 units. Then, you start the series over again.

If you win the first 1-2 units and lose the third 2-unit bet you gained 1-unit. You then, start over again.

Hi FrontAl and everyone- just curious does anyone know using a 3 step up as you win progression 1-2-2 , what do we do if we win the 1 and loss the first 2? Thanks, I'm just curious how to best use this.

[Jim Files]

Note to ellis,

Please post whatever you have so far and let us all try to test and work out any changes that might be needed. We are all patiently (or not) waiting for any updates or ideas that you are working on but please throw us a bone and give us more information about what you have so far, even if it isn't a totally finished and perfected method. We can all work on it together if you give us something more to go on. What do you say?

Best regards,

Jim

[ECD]

Note to ellis,

Please post whatever you have so far and let us all try to test and work out any changes that might be needed. We are all patiently (or not) waiting for any updates or ideas that you are working on but please throw us a bone and give us more information about what you have so far, even if it isn't a totally finished and perfected method. We can all work on it together if you give us something more to go on. What do you say?

Best regards,

Jim

Hi Jim,

I have been testing some ideas from Ellis and have made a few modifications. As soon as I can I will post some rules and results from live casino play this past weekend.

Way

[Jim Files]

Hi Jim,

I have been testing some ideas from Ellis and have made a few modifications. As soon as I can I will post some rules and results from live casino play this past weekend.

Way

Thanks Way!

That would be Great! And very much appreciated by all of us!

Best Regards,

Jim

[BronxAl]

Hi FrontAl and everyone- just curious does anyone know using a 3 step up as you win progression 1-2-2 , what do we do if we win the 1 and loss the first 2? Thanks, I'm just curious how to best use this.

Start over at 1. The 1-2-2 progression loses after five attempts before completing the series.

If your hit rate is greater than 5 attempts, then you need to re-evaluate your bet decisions.

After winning and completing the 3-step series you're up 5 units, minus all of your 1 loses.

Note: After playing this weekend at the Tampa Hard Rock I changed from PLAYER and BANKER NOT being independent of each other using the 3-step series. It did not work. Also, I reverted back to OT as explained by Ellis in his OT posts.

Sorry, my Idea did not show good results even though the online casinos show good results. However, I still like the 3-step series (1-2-2) up as you win.

[trbfla]

thanks al for the reply and the update on the method you used...much appreciated....

[Guest]

Well, while we are waiting for way2fast, yes we have much to be excited about.

John did give me a preview of his results. 4 live casino shoes at a California Factory preshuffled cards casino. $200 units.

He played both MDB+ and NB2Hi at the same time.

MDB+ won 24 out of 24 progressions - therefore a 100% progression win rate, producing 24 units averaging 6 units per shoe.

In the same 4 shoes NB2Hi produced 26 units averaging an additional 6.5 units per shoe.

The 2 systems together averaged 12.5 units per shoe totalling a profit of 50 units over 4 shoes less commission.

These are extremely good results especially considering that one system is a 4Hi and the other is a 2hi.

So you might be thinking that played together the maximum bet could be 6.

Well yes, we will have very occasional 5 and 6 bets when playing both systems together.

Look, up to now we have an extremely high hit rate on the 3rd bets of MDB+ - something over 80%.

John can give us a more precise MDB+ 3rd bet hit rate

Therefore it seems to me that it would be very questionable to ever subtract the NB2Hi bet from the MDB+ bet when the two systems disagree at the point of the MDB+ 3rd bet. We should simply forego the NB bet and bet 4 units.

BUT, when the 2 systems are betting the SAME side at the point of the MDB+ 3rd bet we should go ahead and add the 2 bets together and bet either 5 or 6, whichever is called for.

I don't see how we can be betting too much on a bet with an 80% hit rate!

In fact, let's also investigate how well a 345 prog would have done with the MDB+ bets.

Now recognize that I'm strictly talking factory preshuffled cards here. THAT is when our MDB+ 3rd bet hit rate is so high.

I'm hoping that with regular cards whether prepped at the table or in secret, NB2Hi will out perform MDB+ so there would be little point in playing both systems together against regular cards.

See, NOR plays against the bias of unequal SAP counts.

MDB+ plays against the bias of SAP counts that are TOO equal - more equal than randomly possible.

But NB2Hi does not have a predesignated bias. It simply plays against whatever the shoe decides to do.

So I'm hoping that NB2Hi will do well against ANY shoe type - including on line casinos and random generators AND factory preshuffled.

No NB2Hi has not been released as yet. We are still testing different variations to determine the best.

But once way2fast lists his NB2Hi rules, we can all join in on the testing.

The concept of NB2Hi is when a shoe is streaky we make money on the runs and break even on the chop.

But whenever a shoe is choppy we want the system to make money on the chop while breaking even on the runs.

But that is a whole lot easier said than done!

John, if you are having any trouble posting shoes, just email them to me and I'll post them.

BTW, one of the members said that Bee is producing all the factory preshuffled cards for the whole world.

I would like to get any confirmation of that anybody might have.

It would be neat to know that we can always beat Bee cards!

[ECD]

Ellis,

I posted the rules a couple days ago in a new thread.

To be clear, I played NB2Hi at a different unit size than MDB+. I would rather not say what level I am now at for MDB+, but for this testing I took the MDB+ bets down to 500, so the NB2Hi was played at 100. You can do the math on the results.

When playing the games together, when a MDB+ bet is called for I make only that bet. I do not consider what is going on with NB2Hi for that bet. I hear you about netting the two or adding them together, and I don't want to say it's a bad idea, but just not the way I play it. I am basically playing to win using MDB+. NB2Hi, I hope, will turn out to be a fun and profitable way to pass the time while waiting for those awesome MDB+ bets.

As far as a 3,4,5 progression, I'm not sure that is the best for MDB+. The third bet in the series has the highest winning bet percentage. With a 345 you lose 2 units every time you "win" a progression with the third bet. Of course, you do win 3 units every time you win the first bet in the progression, but that is also the bet with the lowest winning percentage. Probably Needs more thought and analysis.

Way

[Pando]

BTW, one of the members said that Bee is producing all the factory preshuffled cards for the whole world.

I would like to get any confirmation of that anybody might have.

It would be neat to know that we can always beat Bee cards!

In New Zealand they use both Bee (USA) and Angel (Japan) cards

I have seen them. Apparently they are switching solely to Angel.

My information is that Singapore uses only Angel cards

There is some change happening as there are new models of shoes which

read the cards as they are dealt (to reduce fraud), and I doubt that the cards

from one company will be read by the other companies shoe reader.

[brad01]

How did you find out so much info about the cards Pando?

Did you ask somebody at the casino?

It prompted me to do some research and found a post that ties in with what you said about your casino being exactly correct:

Jaye Woo

Croupier at SkyCity Entertainment

The recent procedure change at Auckland made it so that Bee and Angel 8-deck preshuffled cards are used straight from the box for Midi-Bac, with a single riffle or chemmy if requested by the player. Saves time, but it's one more thing the dealer and supervisor has to look out for, just in case cards start coming out in sequence and the shoe needs to be swapped.

Brad

[Pando]

Hey Brad

I just make my own observations - Bee cards have Bee written on the

Ace of Spades, so easy to spot

I also chit chat with the dealers between shoes, they often give little

bits of information but I don't press them too much

Everything Ellis told us about cards and their preparation is totally correct

cheers

Pando