What happens when there is no more Ellis?

[ECD]

So, I'll ask again.

Is this simply an illustration of THE QUICK and THE DEAD ?

( 1995 movie...have a look)

Or, were we all just 2Hi to " get it" ?

Shouldn't we be collectively finding a way to preserve all that is, before it's too late?

I totally agree that we should be preserving Ellis's teachings...but me not being a "GEEK"...I have no idea where we go from here.

Any suggestions?

[brad01]

You know I knew this was going to come up again because we never answered it a few months ago.

What about we all meet up in Vegas every year and compare play methods?

I have no idea what Katchatz1 is thinking of but I had to put something out there to get him to reveal the next cards!

[kachatz1]

I totally agree that we should be preserving Ellis's teachings...but me not being a "GEEK"...I have no idea where we go from here.

Any suggestions?

Pretty simple, I think.

Ellis has come up with so, so many " systems", helpful hints, betting progressions, etc. for baccarat....and they are all contained here in this forum.

And this just goes back to 2007!

Sure, just look through thousands of posts, and figure it out ....each one for themselves, right?

But what happens if the Internet goes Dark, or this forum is shut down?

Pretty soon, no amount of simple search is going to uncover how Twister worked, or why AD1 was once in vogue, or SAP ( killed off, then resurrected as part of MDB...

And countless others....

Ever notice how the work of many artists and famous people is NOT widely known until they are no longer painting, or no longer acting?

Or, no longer publishing....

Seems while we still have the maestro, it would be nice to put all the basic rules for all the systems in one place....maybe an EBook....which we could have at our fingertips for years to come....

A couple of pages per " chapter" would suffice....

A couple of pages on each system, each betting strategy which could be referenced each time a player wanted to enter a casino...

I have to believe IT ALL WORKS, some of the time....8 deck box card order washed early am, preshuffled, etc....these systems and strategies relate to precious systems and strategies , some of which were developed 100's of years ago!

We have the inventor.

We have the historian.

We have a person like Steve that could help put this into plain English.

I'm just saying....likely there are other ideas...

BUT WOULDNT T.H.A.T. Be worth something???

( Before its too late)

Before the party is over...

[brad01]

That would be good but how would you stop it getting into the hands of non members?

All it would take is someone to print a hard copy of have it on a pdf and it would be all over the internet.

When that baccaratguy was on here posting he 'lost' his login I checked out another site and there's actually a thread about MDB and people asking for anyone with copies to supply them for free.

But yes the bible or ebook sounds like a must - could it be offered at a price for Steves or whoevers time that gets put into producing it

I have also thought about a flowchart for how to win at baccarat to show when to use what approach in right situations - if strong bias - NOR , if no bias MDB etc etc right down to which system and mode to use in what situation?

[kachatz1]

That would be good but how would you stop it getting into the hands of non members?

All it would take is someone to print a hard copy of have it on a pdf and it would be all over the internet.

When that baccaratguy was on here posting he 'lost' his login I checked out another site and there's actually a thread about MDB and people asking for anyone with copies to supply them for free.

But yes the bible or ebook sounds like a must - could it be offered at a price for Steves or whoevers time that gets put into producing it

I have also thought about a flowchart for how to win at baccarat to show when to use what approach in right situations - if strong bias - NOR , if no bias MDB etc etc right down to which system and mode to use in what situation?

Brad

You make a good point about PPP

(Probability of Potential Piracy)

Or is it BBB?

( Beware the Banker Boogeyman )

Couldn't resist...you'd think by now I'd just stop...

Your flow chart idea is an excellent one...got me to thinking further on the topic...

I am not a programmer, an artist or the" go-to" person for whatever replaced PowerPoint presentations....

But I do know this:

We have before us a once-in-a -generation opportunity to put what is likely the best-in-class and most workable ideas regarding the game into a

" single place", authored by likely the single most sincere and devoted master of the game.

And this opportunity will expire, unless we collectively contribute to its place in the Baccarat Museum.

Hmmmmn...there's an idea...

I'm really serious, here...and issues of Piracy and Boogeymen aside, you-me-and like-minded others could indeed spearhead an effort to ensure we help to immortalize what BTC is all about

And who better than StarFleet Commander ECD to captain this effort, before the Baccarat Klingons even catch on...

Hey, Pirates and Boogeymen will always-and-forever exist....they have for centuries, since the game was invented, they do now, and they won't go away. We cannot stop that, nor is it our job to do so.

But I think we owe it to Ellis and Keith to weigh in on this topic, which IS REALLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!

[LOU30]

I understand what your talking about and you are RIGHT as usual the show must go on!

Yes I totally agree with you we do have the best of the best here at BTC and its a privilege to be able to study and learn with great instructors and like minded players all of whom are so willing give up their time to help each other.

But!!! The way the forum is going at the moment it just won,t work,we are on the brink of becoming... WELL we actually are a divided community already with the private SUB forums of Nor players, MDB players and now the U2 Hi players and the SSShhh he hasn't paid for this system or that system culture that's creeping in!!!

What,s happened to US the Baccarat players!

The place where we are altogether the place we we're all pals ,all helping each other and swapping ideas and thoughts, we visit daily,PM each other just to ask how you are and how are you doing...

Now...Some of us are here,some of us are there and the rest of us are in that one ...THAT'S not a community and there's no future in that!

I know some might think well just pay for the system and your in! But that's not the answer!

We all know the forum needs money to survive now and long after Ellis has gone (sorry Ellis I know this sounds bad...Its just the title of the post)Lol,BUT the forum can not and will not survive on Ellis and the team trying to make up a new system every now and then to try to make ends meet and cover the costs of running this place.

Yes books and charts will help and the idea of a super book,a Baccarat Bible is a fantastic idea and would be great but we also need a forum,one for all of us ,one just like we have got now Without sub divisions!!!

Where we have access to all the information.

So what's the answer,what are our options! There,s not many...

1.Ellis keeps making systems.

2.We fold and turn to books.

3.We subscribe to monthly subscriptions and keep the forum running. (Keith)

I know it sounds serious but what do YOU,s think!

Will...

happen when there is no more Ellis?

Guys...

[vinfong318]

Hi,

I do agree to what you mentioned.

Forum is for members to interact, most importantly learn something from each other so to improve our game.

NOR itself created much confusion about what to use, most of the member do realized that they use the wrong system only after the game.

Baccarat outcome changes all the time and no one are able to predict what is next to come.

Keep on creating system after system is of no use. Its only for marketing , for those who are loss , its another hope when a new system being created.

No matter what system you use , there is only Banker and Player, Win or loss.

Most importantly in this game is to use only 1 set of system and be persistent to it. If your system came out most of the time you win , if it does not then you will lose. Accept that you lose and come back the next day.

People here need encouragement, motivation so to win more and lose less, accept losses , cut lose and leave.

Remembering those days when we only have s40 single weapon, the game seems so simple and easy to win .

Then people start to lose a few round they get worried and discourage, as you must remember you cant be winning all the time right ?

Then people tend to shift to other system. Good time for system sellers to sell some new method.

There is no Holy Grail for Baccarat. Be consistent and persistent with your methods and your rules for money management , others really depend on God.

I have to say this because I played in the casino consistently for a few months ,daily . I am just sharing my thoughts.

[kachatz1]

Pretty simple, I think.

Ellis has come up with so, so many " systems", helpful hints, betting progressions, etc. for baccarat....and they are all contained here in this forum.

And this just goes back to 2007!

Sure, just look through thousands of posts, and figure it out ....each one for themselves, right?

But what happens if the Internet goes Dark, or this forum is shut down?

Pretty soon, no amount of simple search is going to uncover how Twister worked, or why AD1 was once in vogue, or SAP ( killed off, then resurrected as part of MDB...

And countless others....

Ever notice how the work of many artists and famous people is NOT widely known until they are no longer painting, or no longer acting?

Or, no longer publishing....

Seems while we still have the maestro, it would be nice to put all the basic rules for all the systems in one place....maybe an EBook....which we could have at our fingertips for years to come....

A couple of pages per " chapter" would suffice....

A couple of pages on each system, each betting strategy which could be referenced each time a player wanted to enter a casino...

I have to believe IT ALL WORKS, some of the time....8 deck box card order washed early am, preshuffled, etc....these systems and strategies relate to precious systems and strategies , some of which were developed 100's of years ago!

We have the inventor.

We have the historian.

We have a person like Steve that could help put this into plain English.

I'm just saying....likely there are other ideas...

BUT WOULDNT T.H.A.T. Be worth something???

( Before its too late)

Before the party is over...

oh.

The party is so close to being over, I hate to be the bearer of bad news.

You've all been given your chance to send Ellis your money for THE FINAL CHAPTER.

Do it today, if you want my advice.

There is something like about the 4th of July, something about releasing THE BIGGEST DISASTER MOVIES OF THE YEAR that weekend...

This year, its THE TERMINATOR GENYSIS.

and yes, Arnold is in it.

Call me whatever you want, but a few days, a few weeks, or ( if you are really lucky), a few months from now this information may no longer be available...

and the forum will go dark.

last 28 years, I have been "invested/in-business/partners with" a whole bunch of people.

You, too may have been.

You, too have experienced what a wonderful partnership Keith and Ellis have enjoyed.

And this is no more than a "wish", from thousands worldwide, existing and potential customers alike, that they will continue.

Tell them how much you value their relationship.

Ask them to continue.

or...

[kachatz1]

oh.

The party is so close to being over, I hate to be the bearer of bad news.

You've all been given your chance to send Ellis your money for THE FINAL CHAPTER.

Do it today, if you want my advice.

There is something like about the 4th of July, something about releasing THE BIGGEST DISASTER MOVIES OF THE YEAR that weekend...

This year, its THE TERMINATOR GENYSIS.

and yes, Arnold is in it.

Call me whatever you want, but a few days, a few weeks, or ( if you are really lucky), a few months from now this information may no longer be available...

and the forum will go dark.

last 28 years, I have been "invested/in-business/partners with" a whole bunch of people.

You, too may have been.

You, too have experienced what a wonderful partnership Keith and Ellis have enjoyed.

And this is no more than a "wish", from thousands worldwide, existing and potential customers alike, that they will continue.

Tell them how much you value their relationship.

Ask them to continue.

or...

KEITH and ELLIS

let me be the first to pulleeze, pulleeze ask you guys to stick together!

I understand you need to make a living.

WE ALL understand this.

Your dysfunctions, if any, relate not to content.

They relate to "getting out the word"...to conversion of your disciples to TRUE BELIEVERS , which means they will spread the word for you...

Both of you have been too proud to call me.

Ever.

And yet the answer to your dreams lays right in front of you.

Arrange a conference call between the 3 of us.

everything to gain. nothing to lose...

Kevin

850-687-3128

[Keith Smith]

I have made my decision and look forward to working with new players and restructuring the players forum. You only get one reputation. I want this place to be the place to come for gamblers and gaming information. I have made many mistakes but believe me, my intentions are to protect my clients and long time members and give them value for their money.

This forum pays the bills by offering seminars and recruiting new players, teaching what we know collectively. We bring players together as a club to talk about Baccarat Blackjack and more. We have lost part of that and I want to bring it back. I was talking to a player last night and I mentioned that even a bad idea may trigger someone else to think differently. That's what I want.

Again if you want to talk to Ellis and want his new manual give him a call, after all he posted call him directly anyway. I won't sell it or anything more on Baccarat approaches as manuals and new systems. We have all (at least for now) there is nothing more to know at this point - just to set the record straight. I didn't demand a new product which should be obvious by the way it was offered. Use what we have. It's pretty good stuff all made collectively by the insights of many.

There be no more manuals and new approaches all are just different ways to bet. All the variables that may look valid are not statistically significant, it is basic statistics. If you cannot identify assignable cause variation by card prep or casino manipulation the game is random.

We have two approaches one that play best against random one that plays best against cards that may not be random. That's it. There is nothing else. Tweak what we have after all that's what a new approach is anyway, a tweak. When do you change from opposite to repeat. Every approach tries to do the same thing. For example System 40 bet opposites until you lose 1 in a row, 2 in a row, or 3 in a row. ( Modes). All you did was use a statistic to decide when to change -1 repeat 2 repeats or 3.

We have enough information on Baccarat and I think we have covered every possible senario one could think of. It's pretty basic stuff it's either an opposite or a repeat. Look we can always learn more but the basics are covered.

The party is not over I have made this forum in 1995 as a mailing list and plan to continue. Sure we will lose some but we have yet to meet some of the best players in the world. They just haven't found us yet.

I will restructure the forums and condense some and rebrand what we have. We have too many forums I think. I am open to feedback and thoughtful suggestions please email them to me or PM me.

Keith

[LOU30]

Thanks Keith,

As always your continued help and support is recognized and appreciated.

Best Regards Lou.

[Rich333]

I have made my decision and look forward to working with new players and restructuring the players forum. You only get one reputation. I want this place to be the place to come for gamblers and gaming information. I have made many mistakes but believe me, my intentions are to protect my clients and long time members and give them value for their money.

This forum pays the bills by offering seminars and recruiting new players, teaching what we know collectively. We bring players together as a club to talk about Baccarat Blackjack and more. We have lost part of that and I want to bring it back. I was talking to a player last night and I mentioned that even a bad idea may trigger someone else to think differently. That's what I want.

Again if you want to talk to Ellis and want his new manual give him a call, after all he posted call him directly anyway. I won't sell it or anything more on Baccarat approaches as manuals and new systems. We have all (at least for now) there is nothing more to know at this point - just to set the record straight. I didn't demand a new product which should be obvious by the way it was offered. Use what we have. It's pretty good stuff all made collectively by the insights of many.

There be no more manuals and new approaches all are just different ways to bet. All the variables that may look valid are not statistically significant, it is basic statistics. If you cannot identify assignable cause variation by card prep or casino manipulation the game is random.

We have two approaches one that play best against random one that plays best against cards that may not be random. That's it. There is nothing else. Tweak what we have after all that's what a new approach is anyway, a tweak. When do you change from opposite to repeat. Every approach tries to do the same thing. For example System 40 bet opposites until you lose 1 in a row, 2 in a row, or 3 in a row. ( Modes). All you did was use a statistic to decide when to change -1 repeat 2 repeats or 3.

We have enough information on Baccarat and I think we have covered every possible senario one could think of. It's pretty basic stuff it's either an opposite or a repeat. Look we can always learn more but the basics are covered.

The party is not over I have made this forum in 1995 as a mailing list and plan to continue. Sure we will lose some but we have yet to meet some of the best players in the world. They just haven't found us yet.

I will restructure the forums and condense some and rebrand what we have. We have too many forums I think. I am open to feedback and thoughtful suggestions please email them to me or PM me.

Keith

Keith, are you saying Ellis is no longer a part of BTC? If so than WHY? Please explain somewhere in the forum including the public forum.

[brad01]

Its true from what Keith wrote. Decisions been made

I hate to say it but partnerships never last in business long term from my experience

We are all different and in time don't see eye to eye and go in different directions

When that happens there's usually no turning back.

I for one wish it could be worked out and we could go back to having both Keith and Ellis doing what they do but if that's it then we have to move forward.

Sad day as only been a member a short time and just starting to get it all together and build up some wins and now what got me there has changed but glad the forums still gonna continue and a lot of what Keith says makes sense to me.

Just trying to come to terms with it and move forward and continue doing what we do.

[Keith Smith]

Keith, are you saying Ellis is no longer a part of BTC? If so than WHY? Please explain somewhere in the forum including the public forum.

Correct. I made a business decision based on two of his posts that he no longer can be a part of this forum.

It''s very simple and I wont get into a bashing contest. I am going to revamp the forum with new teachers and hope you all stick around.

And a fresh outlook.

Keith

[trillion]

Is the revamped forum going to concentrate on Baccarat only?

Or is the other Forum topics like horse racing, free stuff, roulette, poker room, blackjack or sports betting ETC, ETC going away?

I am just interested in learning how to become a winning baccarat PLAYER, none of the other stuff I have no interest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Correct. I made a business decision based on two of his posts that he no longer can be a part of this forum.

It''s very simple and I wont get into a bashing contest. I am going to revamp the forum with new teachers and hope you all stick around.

And a fresh outlook.

Keith

[brad01]

I hope it stays around. Although Bac is so popular now and easier to learn how to win faster than BJ who knows whats gonna happen in the future?

5 - 10 yesrs ago bac was not as popular and there was next to no tables on main floor where I am.

We got Carlos there an expert on BJ and we got Ruebel giving out 100% hit on his sports picks.

That is valuable stuff

[kachatz1]

All-

I've got Good news and Bad news.

First, the Bad news.

Ellis is gone, and sooner than my Custer/Benjamin Franklin/Steve Jobs analogy post earlier in this thread might have been foreseen...even by me.

Now for the Good news.

I spoke at length with Keith today...in fact I spoke with 8 members who play NOR, and /or MDB as well...

Keith owns the forum. Plain and Simple.

BUT, WE ARE A COMMUNITY of like-minded individuals whose sole desire ,once we enter a casino, is to exit as a WINNER.

Again, Plain and simple.

And, Everybody I talked to today, or has posted about this situation ,( including me) wants the same thing.

For this forum to go on for a long, long time.

Simply too much " good stuff" we have all come to appreciate to let it go by the wayside...

There's no one person likely to be "replacing" Ellis.

No "stepping into his shoes" and "filling them"

That would make for a foolhardy promise, with naysayers right-and-left just waiting for failure.

And who could possibly write the job description?

Ellis himself frequently referred to other players, other " gambling gurus"/ " system provocateurs" ( did I just say that?) from " back in the day" like Kenny Upton and Jerry Patterson, to name a few...

And they all had a different approach to things. And in their own way, they were all "successful" by virtually any measure...at least until they tried to stretch things too thin...

And I'm sure with Ellis out of the BTC picture, things here will likely "be different" here @ BTC as well.

How soon, how fast, or when? I'm not sure...but thinking out loud:

Not so many new systems

More focus on what players are able to understand and implement.

Continual updates and discussion of " what's working, what's not", and how to tweak an existing system to adapt to localized current "casino conditions"

More organization, so easier to find the answers to those FAQ's we all have.

And hopefully " Broadcast to all", not buried somewhere hard to find it if you haven't tuned in for awhile...

Maybe could even entail more encouragement to all to talk about what's going on here in Las Vegas, and where YOU play.

( I play all over, so hoping Keith can re-organize the forum to address this!)

This forum is important to me, so I have offered to help, address what I can, stictly from a player's perspective.

Ellis was important to Keith, too, so I'm sure he wishes him well. They worked together a long time...

Not sure exactly what FORM the forum will take, but after talking to Keith, I'm feeling a whole lot better!

Expect some changes.

Hopefully, simplification.

Hopefully, in all our best interests.

And most importantly, more focused on " tweaking" existing systems, rather than frequent overhauls to learn new systems and procedures all the time.

Not sure what else to say for now, but you know how to reach me if I can help.

Wishing you all the best.

BE PATIENT , And KEEP THE FAITH!

I'll update you if I learn more...

Kevin

[johnnycs1]

So , thats it ?

No more Ellis ?

Is he not allowed to post on the forum , ever again ?

johnny

[kachatz1]

G

So , thats it ?

No more Ellis ?

Is he not allowed to post on the forum , ever again ?

johnny

Never

Ever

Is a long time

Hope we are " collectively" focusing on your next casino outing... And not much more...

We win, " that" it's all good,..

We win again, it's even Better.

This forum is about showing you the best possibilities to win.

But they are just mathematical possibilities.

Shoe is " trending" NOR, bet it.

Shoe is " trending " MDB, bet it.

You want to put the two together?

You might surmise , it couldn't be done.

I get it.

( but it could be)

And will.....

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water..

( Actually? More common is " I can't figure this out...HELP!"

( or is it Yelp???)

Help is where we help each other solve the puzzle.

Yelp is where you are free to comment on same.

So, which one are you interested in?