The 4S Manual Questions Thread

[Guest]

OK, place your questions and comments here. Don't be shy, I don't bite. Usually.

[Fedda]

Hi! I've been waiting for this. It's perfect because I'm a new member and need to get to the bottom with your methods and learn from the start. Since a came here I've been trying to read as much as I can in all type of threads but it's alot of info to take in..

I've "one" question for now, do you mean that the "4s-system" stands for 4 different systems that are combinated and system 40 is one of them?

I don't want to rush this but which are included? Is it systems you can read about in this forum?

Thanks

/FF

[ECD]

Hi! I've been waiting for this. It's perfect because I'm a new member and need to get to the bottom with your methods and learn from the start. Since a came here I've been trying to read as much as I can in all type of threads but it's alot of info to take in..

I've "one" question for now, do you mean that the "4s-system" stands for 4 different systems that are combinated and system 40 is one of them?

I don't want to rush this but which are included? Is it systems you can read about in this forum?

Thanks

/FF

Correct Fred, system 40 is the first of 4 systems. The other 3 are F2, RD1, and OTB4L. Yes, you can review the other threads covering those systems But each will be repeated in the 4S manual as it proceeds so everything is in one place. Also this gives me a better opportunity to explain how these systems relate to each other and when and why we would switch from one to the other. It simplifies studying as much as possible.

[ECD]

Having played this game very technically for 30 years I sometimes forget what it was like on my first day.

"What the hell do you mean tens don't count anything! I think you are making up the rules as you go!"

[ECD]

That reminds me! If you don't know the hit rules you WILL get cheated. Learn them! Every casino has a Baccarat rules card you can keep. I can post them if you like. I must have them around here someplace. Haven't looked at them in 25 years. But they have never changed.

[ECD]

And that reminds me. I can teach you a simple way to cheat. But if you get caught, don't mention my name. What the hell, THEY cheat! I'll also teach you all the ways THEY cheat. It pays to know.

Oh, you think casinos would never cheat? Silly you.

[ECD]

Here you go Ellis.

Player's third-card-rule

• If either the player or the bank have a total of 8 or 9 on the first two cards no further cards are

drawn. The resulting hand is called a natural and the hand is over.

• If the player's total is less than or equal to 5 the player's hand draws a third card.

• If the player does not draw a third card, then the bank's hand stands on 6 or more and takes a

third card on a total of 5 or less. If the player does take a third card then the Bank's third-card-rule

below will determine if the bank takes a third card.

Bank's third-card-rule

• If the bank's total is 2 or less then bank draws a card, regardless of what the players third card is.

• If the banks total is 3 then the bank draws a third card unless the players third card was an 8.

• If the banks total is 4 then the bank draws a third card unless the players third card was a 0, 1, 8,

or 9.

• If the banks total is 5 then the bank draws a third card if the players third card was 4, 5, 6, or 7.

• If the banks total is 6 then the bank draws a third card if the players third card was a 6 or 7.

• If the banks total is 7 then the bank stands.

PJ

[ECD]

What? You want to know how to cheat first? OK

At a full table you are sitting at first base - the extreme left hand of the dealer. You bet P. B wins. The dealer takes your money first. But then the dealer is tied up with commissions. She pays third base first - the other end of the table, and works her way back to you. Meanwhile you put up your next bet on B. She finally gets to you, sees your bet up and pays you off for the hand you actually just lost. Act oblivious. Try that on a tired, overworked dealer at a full table. Just don't do it every hand. If she catches you just say WHOOPS, I got a little too impatient. But some dealers never catch you. So, would I do that? What, you think I'm a low down cheat? Of course I would!

[ECD]

Thanks PJ! There you have it guys. The rules. Copy those or get a casino card and study them frequently.

[ECD]

Also, look guys, there is no such thing as a dumb question on this forum. This is YOUR thread. Don't be embarrased to use it.

[ECD]

Ellis requested that I post up a Standard SAP type scorecard. I added an O/R count.

Here is a link to download the xls file:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zf61lt3jyx8x6ei

PJ

Edited August 20, 2010 by ECD

[aaron0900]

Hello Master Ellis

When we got the O/R count, then how we place our bet? How to look for a good trigger point?

What i will learn on the next step?

aaron0900

[ECD]

The manual has just begun Aaron. Let's take it one step at a time. The worst thing we can do is start betting before we know what is going on. The OR count only tells us which system to start with. Let's get that down pat first. I'll try to cover that in the manual this morning.

[jerseyslim]

Ellis...............Being new here and not understanding what the advantage of having 4 systems to consider, my question is why would it be necessary to consider 4 separate systems when a shoe is pretty much either streaky or choppy. If it's streaky it would seem RD1 would be the mode to be in and if it's choppy, system 40 should handle the chop. Isn't more really too much. It would seem that fine tuning to 4 systems might be an over kill and only make cause for more adjustments on the run. As I say, I'm new here and new to the various systems so I could be way off base on my conclusions.

[ECD]

HI Master Ellis

The following was one of the real game from Casino. I am practicing my O/R count, pls correct me if i am wrong.

PPPPPPP BBB PP T BBB P BBB TT PPP BB P B P BBB PP B PP B P BBBBB

-1-2-3-4-5-6 +1-1-2 +1-1 +1-1-2 +1 +2-1-2 +1-1-2 +1-1 +1 +2 +3 +4-1-2 +1-1 +1 +2-1 +1 +2 +3-1-2-3-4

Will the "T" affect the results ?

If i got the O/R count all correct, what should i do on the next step ? This shoe appear this way,will you consider it is a good shoe?

Best regards

hllim

I can see you are trying hard hllim. You'll have these basics down in no time.

First, we don't record ties on our card at all. We completely ignore them as if the play never happened. They have no effect on the game and ties are a sucker bet with horrible odds. We are pros. Only rank amateurs bet ties. It you must record them just put a T in the margin but don't interrupt your score card because they will screw up your 20 plays per column.

Next, you would post your 42 plays this way:

P7323131

P221113212113

B2 = -7 OR count

The P or B tells us which side each col. begins with. Note the 20 plays per col. and note I didn't record the ties.

Your OR count is -7 at play 42, a very streaky shoe.

When I say we keep a RUNNING OR count I mean that starting at play 2 we either add 1 or subtract 1 to our total each play. Your OR count up to play 7 was correct at -6 but then at play 8 you simply add 1 for the opposite making your count at play 8 -5 then -6 -7 -6 -7 -6- 7 -8 -7 -6 etc to a total of -7 at play 42.

BTW, since this shoe is very streaky, had we played RD 2 as I recommended since 1's are low meaning that we wait for the 2nd 1 in a row to bet twice under a 1, our score at play 42 would be +17 down from a high of +18 with a high bet of 5 betting U1D2 M2 giving us a 20% Player Advantage. This compares to the 0.5% PA card counters strive to attain but never do. +17 for a half a shoe is pretty darn good. I tell you this now only to give you some idea of where this 4S manual is going. With the close attention you pay, It won't be long before you are attaining such wins in the casino. It is all a question of playing the right system in the right shoe. That is exactly what I'm teaching you. I'm just giving you a little preview here using your own shoe as an example of what can be accomplished. Hang in there. All this stuff will start making sense soon.

Edited August 22, 2010 by ECD

[ECD]

Ellis...............Being new here and not understanding what the advantage of having 4 systems to consider, my question is why would it be necessary to consider 4 separate systems when a shoe is pretty much either streaky or choppy. If it's streaky it would seem RD1 would be the mode to be in and if it's choppy, system 40 should handle the chop. Isn't more really too much. It would seem that fine tuning to 4 systems might be an over kill and only make cause for more adjustments on the run. As I say, I'm new here and new to the various systems so I could be way off base on my conclusions.

New or old, Jersey, this is a very intelligent question! What we are really doing with 4S is concentrating your study on only 4 systems rather than the 20 or so that we have covered thus far. What's more is that the manual is designed so that a student can stop at any point if he wishes. For instance, A student could elect to stop once he knows only the 4 ways of playing System 40. Let's name them System 42,43, 44 and System 40N for system 40 Net bet. 43 means 3s are culprit. 44 means 4's are culprit. Those two alone are the very best ways to play CHOP shoes. 40N covers Neutral shos and 42 covers Streaky shoes since it is exactly the same as TB4L. So you can cover ALL bases with just System 40. You have the BEST way of playing the half of all shoes that favor chop. You also have a GOOD way of playing Streak and Neutral but not necessarily the BEST way.

So, you can elect to stop after System 40 only.

Or you can elect to go one step further and stop after System 40 and RD 1,2

Or you can elect to go all the way with all 4 systems.

My point is this: You can learn to play perfectly with only these 4 base systems. They are our best systems and they meld together perfectly to give you the BEST way to play any shoe type. So why confuse the issue with 16 more systems when these 4 do the job best?

So my job though as you can see is tough enough with just these 4 systems but close to impossible with more than 4.

Now my job becomes "Which version of which system is BEST for the shoe at hand and how do we know when to switch and what do we switch to? That's tough enough but doable. I think anything further does more harm than good.

[ECD]

Hllim et al, Note that PJ was smart enough to add a link right below his score card below so you can download it right there. That scorecard design is perfect for 4S. My advice is to download it, adjust to the size you want and make copies.

But also 8.5 X 11 1/4 ' grid pads are available in 3 packs at WallMart for next to nothing. While you are in that isle pick up a couple packs of Pilot G2 07 or 05 red and black pens. Those pads are perfect for cheap home practice cards. The pens are perfect for home or casino.

Hllim, I doubt they have WalMarts in Singapore yet but I'm sure they have something equivalent.

Hmm, maybe WalMartsan or whatever.

Now PJ used to have scorecard books available to everyone at his cost. But I don't know if PJ wants to get involved with that again. PJ?

Edited August 22, 2010 by ECD

[ECD]

For the sharpies: It just occurred to me that once we make RD1 a choice between

RD 1 = betiing twice under a single 1 and

RD 2 = betting twice under a double 1

that if we add

RD3 = betting twive under a triple 1

that:

RD and 40 become exact opposites

that:

when Mark was saying bet anti RD 1, he was actually saying play System 40.

that:

when we Net bet System 40 against itself

we are actually net betting Sys 40 against RD

Now how we can get some advantage out of that revelation?

I don't know yet but it is certainly food for thought.

My first thought is this:

If we can make SYSTEM 40 near perfect by making LC the culprit

Then why can't we make RD near perfect by making LC the culprit???

See, that's what a good night's sleep can do for ya. That should get your brain fired up.

[aaron0900]

Hi Master Ellis

My count is -6 on 42 hand. I can't get -7.

When u start the betting ? How to decide using RD2 ? RD2 stand for ? How you get +17 ? Can show me the step to get +17 ?

Thank you.

hllim

[aaron0900]

Hi Master Ellis

Yes. I had doweload the score card. Thank you. and PapaJoe.

hllim

[ECD]

Hi Master Ellis

My count is -6 on 42 hand. I can't get -7.

When u start the betting ? How to decide using RD2 ? RD2 stand for ? How you get +17 ? Can show me the step to get +17 ?

Thank you.

hllim

First make sure I posted your shoe correctly. If so the count is -7. Check again. But at least you are getting a lot closer.

[Pamela Conkey]

Hello everyone, I would like to comment on what I noticed in Vegas a couple of weeks ago. After the games would break up the dealers would always erase the tote board and shuffel the cards so when you came upon a table with no players you always had to start blind. I was playing with my wife so we just net bet player and bank till we had enough hands to start Maveric. If your playing alone it will make it a little tougher to table search if there are no players. Just curious if this is going on any place else. It's not the end of the world but, it looks like Vegas doesn't want us to see whats going on before we sit down. And if Vegas is doing it it wont be long before they all start doing it. Thanks, Brian.

[aaron0900]

Hi Brian

We can bet on both player and banker at the same time. If banker win we pay the 5% commission, if player win we save the com. So we can get what we want for our recording. This is allow in Singapore.

aaron0900

[aaron0900]

First make sure I posted your shoe correctly. If so the count is -7. Check again. But at least you are getting a lot closer.

Hi Master Ellis

How to get +17 ?

[MVSeahog]

For the sharpies: RD and 40 become exact opposites

that:

when Mark was saying bet anti RD 1, he was actually saying play System 40.

You know, I thought that RD1/H and Sys40 were eerily similar in execution. In fact, I went back and they are very, very close to each other.

MVS