Million Dollar Webinar!

[BigVic]

I'm just wondering what comes after the million dollar baccarat, 1 billion? Now that I'd pay to see.

[CdnChamer]

i'm just wondering what comes after the million dollar baccarat, 1 billion? Now that i'd pay to see.

dream on !

cc

[Guest]

I won't be alive by then.

[CdnChamer]

I don't want to start an argument, this is Ellis’ world, I'm just a visitor in it. I paid for NOR, I've won Baccarat playing NOR, more than enough to cover the cost. I posted about it last year. I believe in NOR.

But...my opinion, and it's just that, an opinion, is that +5 is not a new system, it is mostly just an adjustment to NOR betting, with a few tweaks about modes and betting ATR or OTR. That's it. It follows the same three systems S40, OTB4L, F(SS/S40M1) as NOR. You are just changing the betting progression and calling it BaS40, etc.... I get that you don't agree, but I'm guessing that most NOR members on here following the +5 discussion would agree with most of what I've stated.

And as far as I'm concerned, preshuffled cards are nothing that hasn't been talked about on the NOR forums by you extensively and how to play NOR against them with smaller win expectations than against regular cards.

Your statement below about NOR soon being obsolete is not very encouraging, especially since I've been a NOR member for less than a year. I really feel sorry for anyone thinking about purchasing NOR. Wouldn't that be something. Pay for what you think will be a successful approach to Baccarat and then find out its creator thinks it will be obsolete soon. Ouch! Maybe they'll get started soon enough to win their cost back like me.

None of what I said should take away from the great instruction and discussion I get in the forum currently. I think it's great.

What I've said, in this post and the last one I posted, are just my small gripes with the idea of charging current NOR members for the +5. I'm happy to pay for a webinar for additional instruction on the +5, just not happy to pay more to get access to something that I feel I've already paid for. I’ll see how things play out in the next week or so on this and then make a decision.

SAVE YOUR MONEY, YOU HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION ALREADY, WHY PAY MORE? You don't need too.

CC

[Action Mike]

I am having a hard time swallowing this thread. Really. We discuss betting $25 to $100 and some people $200 to $5000 per HAND, (less than 2 minutes) and someone mentions $10 bucks a month and people don't jump all over it. WOW. I spent $900 to learn NOR and get access to the forum. Money I made back the day of the lesson. I can't understand not investing in more training and knowledge moving forward. Keeping people interested to teach new information and coach us is very valuable. Ellis can't do it for free. I wouldn't either, however I consider my feedback here part of my "classroom" discussion. Ellis doesn't need us to teach him. Its the other way around. Some people really need to get their cheap asses on the program.

<end of rant!>

[Keith Smith]

Here's my answer and make my word I mean it:

Ellis,

I started this project to get you up and out again and to keep my promise to your wife Kathy to make sure you get him out and about. No one played together more than me and you over the years especially in the early 90s. I did the best I could, and I knew you had a lot to offer the gaming world. While at times I must admit I thought your ego got in the way a bit and was a bit quirky I thought it would work out.

This business model of lifetime membership does not work. It gets interpreted as, from this day forward anything you write or come up with must be given for free to all members. At least as far as I can see. Trying to generate revenue to support the forum, pay you for your time and spending countless hours marketing just does not pay any dividends to the business not to mention all the other costs associated with it. The only benefit is being able to expense out a trip here or there.

It seems all roads lead to some sort of ridicule for offering up different ideas not only by members but by me, or someone wants to claim the novelty for themselves instead of the group concept of continuous improvement. If no one can afford or wants to contribute to the ongoing support of the forum for whatever reason it cannot stay healthy and is doomed. We have members who joined in 06 at $500 as Norm always said, you do the math. We are endlessly trying to extract money for the business from current members just so the business survives (we have 377 NOR members) and it is a battle that is no longer worth it to me, quite honestly it never was. It doesn’t take any business experience or a degree to see that.

So you write about NOR and whatever else you see fit to but know that it will be for the love of the game only. Know that I will not offer any more seminars through BeatTheCasino.com. I’m done. I will not market it to try to get new members nor (no pun intended) will I do anything to support or otherwise enhance it. And most important I will not open myself up to this scorn trying to make a few bucks, so you aren’t getting paid unless we get new members or someone buys a BJ manual. Perhaps they will pay you directly with a donation for your time. If you feel like writing for hours daily, be my guest while everyone claims rights to everything we know or will come up collectively or individually.

I am so sick and tired of being threaten to be sued, (it’s an LLC by the way with no money but a few grand operating cash in it) constantly worrying daily if I can get two new members this month to send an old guy in AR a few bucks for his time cause his legs hurt so bad he can’t move or do anything else. Hesitantly trying to explain that yes we can do a seminar but when you have 10 -15 people at $250 sign up and it’s in Vegas we are operating it at a loss.

Begging people to refer people and not give them passwords to our videos and manuals (and by the way the statistics of the videos and file downloads prove this is rampant).

What we are guilty of is a stupid business model and there is nothing I can do to correct it. The asset of clients depreciating instead of appreciating as they will buy very little more due to perception of entitlement. There is no upsell possibility with the majority of members and that will not work. You need monthly income from members if you are supporting them on an ongoing basis. You cannot sustain that with new business only. If anyone else can come up with a solution let me know you can buy the place from me.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Keith Smith

[BronxAl]

Everyone please let’s have some respect, discipline and patients!

Realize that Ellis and Keith can abandon us at will; they are the only ones left that can help us advance above the 95% of losers. We all lost NormA, when he passed, a good friend who can stand shoulder to shoulder with Ellis and Keith. SO LET’S NOT CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WE MAY REGRET.

Leadership faces a lot of pressure. You cannot please everyone all the time. I agree the 4D Seminar was a failure for the price of entry. The failure lies with the participants having not prepared themselves properly with the knowledge of BASIC NOR, NOR+ and NET BETTING. Maybe, there should have been an exam qualifying the participants before attending. This is a suggestion for future Seminars.

Yes, Ellis and Keith might have been guilty of greed, by accepting Preschool Level Attendees to take a Post Graduate Course. However, that is spilled milk now under the bridge, lesson learned.

In the last few months before NormA passed, he told me Baccarat is starting to change due to Preshuffled Cards, I never got the chance to explore any further on that subject with him.

So everyone lets remain professional. Recouping our money can easily be achieved and sustained with the cost of learning and the cost of doing business. Ellis and Keith have need to charge us for their services rendered, and then take us on a journey of mastering preshuffled cards playing Baccarat.

Remaining loyal,

FrontAl

[newbacplayer]

I'm not entirely sure what went so sour on this thread, but the civility I've expected and always found on the site was certainly lost. I greatly appreciate Keith and Ellis, and especially the newer higher technical quality videos of recent. I'm still learning, but it is obvious that the casinos will always attempt to adjust play to their advantage so any plan of a perfect system that lasts forever is obviously a fantasy. As Ellis, Keith, and others devise ways of staying ahead of the casinos, we should expect additional costs over the course time to continue learning these pearls of wisdom. In any other business model, any of us would expect to have routine costs for new skills and new expertise, and it seems odd that such deep anger would arise when Keith and Ellis suggest some cost for learning a new system or a newly honed subset of a system. Given the amount of money being discussed as potential profit, the pittance suggested to go towards costs would seem to me to pretty reasonable, either in the form of making the presentation and/or video cost higher to cover the website or to have some ongoing fees for website access. It's certainly fine if someone disagrees with me, but I would at least hope that disagreement could be expressed in a manner short of the seething anger noted in the last couple of days. We all want to win, so let's work together, learn, share, and make the most of the information.

[Guest]

I agreee , everyone needs to take a few deep breaths . Very long ones at that .

For me . I look at my entry fee as being for the manual and B.T.C. web site ... ( ex: new computer ). Paid for , and all the support is there from many people ..to learn how to use this computer ... Along the way i may need to pay for some up grades . Thats just life ... i want my computer running the best it can be ... and with that upgrade i also learn a few more things to use , or not on my computer ...or it helps me in something i thought i knew but diden't . (webinars and training c.d.'s ). The last training C.D. helped me . Seen a live example instead of reading an example ... Night and day differance for one issue i had .. all cleared up now ...

Hence , preshuffled cards coming down the pike , as the say .

My computer is starting to go on the fritzzz... What to do ???? .

I get a discount rate from where i paid for my last one ... And a whole new computer with newer technology , up to a point , some things will always be the same ..But it's a better more durable computer . For whatever you use on it ... And i still have the knowledge of the old computer to use , (older technology),if i happen to need it at any given time ...Which will happen from time to time ....

So for me , I'll take the training seminar or C.D. when it comes out then pay my monthly maint. fee .. if i don't like it . I can always cancel .... I look at it as general maint. on a car to keep it in tip top running condition .... The reason i say that is because eventualy all things change . Like it or not . It's a fact of life . And no full coverage is full coverage . At one time or another you wind up by paying for something .... That's a fact of life .....

[gman72]

I'm not entirely sure what went so sour on this thread, but the civility I've expected and always found on the site was certainly lost.

I'm not sure what you're taking about. Except for that crazy rant post by CC, I think all the discussion in this thread has been civil. The reply by Keith was eye opening to say the least. We see where we all stand with him. -just depreciating assets.

[BigVic]

The answer to all Keith's and Ellis's problems are staring them right in the face! I think the two founders of "Beat The Casino" who want to sell a product called "Million Dollar Webinar" should lead by example and individually go out, spend the next 30 days and each make 1 million dollars playing baccarat exactly the way they teach it in the webinar.

That would serve two purposes.

First: Prove beyond a doubt that what they are selling works for the baccarat game currently being dealt.

Second: NO MORE MONEY WORRIES FOR THE FORUM!

Simple really.

Excuses to follow.....

[CdnChamer]

The answer to all Keith's and Ellis's problems are staring them right in the face! I think the two founders of "Beat The Casino" who want to sell a product called "Million Dollar Webinar" should lead by example and individually go out, spend the next 30 days and each make 1 million dollars playing baccarat exactly the way they teach it in the webinar.

That would serve two purposes.

First: Prove beyond a doubt that what they are selling works for the baccarat game currently being dealt.

Second: NO MORE MONEY WORRIES FOR THE FORUM!

Simple really.

Excuses to follow.....

You know what BigVic? That the best thing I've seen you post all day!

I sent Keith a referral via pm perhaps that may help?

But hey, if they both proved that the million $ plan will work.... They can endorse it completely, otherwise it's just a hypothetical formula that has not been proven yet. Remember Jerry McGuire? "Show me the money!"

Honestly.... It wasn't me who peed in Keith's Corn Flakes... Heck I don't even live close to him.

CC

[BronxAl]

Right on!

Keep in mind something for nothing is worth nothing.

[Guest]

The answer to all Keith's and Ellis's problems are staring them right in the face! I think the two founders of "Beat The Casino" who want to sell a product called "Million Dollar Webinar" should lead by example and individually go out, spend the next 30 days and each make 1 million dollars playing baccarat exactly the way they teach it in the webinar.

That would serve two purposes.

First: Prove beyond a doubt that what they are selling works for the baccarat game currently being dealt.

Second: NO MORE MONEY WORRIES FOR THE FORUM!

Simple really.

Excuses to follow.....

Hmm Vic, for once we are thinking alike. Maybe I should just play. That worked well for 30 years. Plus, I can mix Bac with BJ.

It shouldn't take a high IQ to recognize that to survive BTC needs to make money. For the first time in 20 years, given the current climate, I don't see that happening. BTW, Making a million dollars is just a function of averaging +5. If you can average +5 you can make a million dollars. +4 would take you a little longer. That's just 4th grade Arithmetic. Are you maybe suggesting I can't average +5? Ha, I did a whole lot better than that for 30 years - much closer to +12.

As I mentioned before, the +5 approach, although we didn't call it that back then, was played successfully for about 10 years. The manual sold hundreds of copies at $3000 per copy - Nearly $700,000 the first two weeks after release. My playing partner, Ann, and I played this system for many years all over the US, Canada, The Bahamas, and the Canaries along with hundreds of our members back then. We always played it with double blacks which is more than equivalent to $1000 units today.

The two of us didn't play it quite the same. I always played the 9 bet progression ON the run. Ann would play either ON or AGAINST the run depending on the overall choppiness or streakiness of the shoe. It turned out that she was right and I was wrong. Because one day I got all the way to the 8 bet. This means my prog was 121 122 123 125 128. I finally won the 8 bet after losing 14 bets and won the shoe. But Ann had been out of the shoe with her +10 much earlier. I learned my lesson. It's best to go by the OR count the way she played it. So THAT is the way I teach it now.

So how could I possibly win the shoe after losing a 121 122 123 125 12 ? Mike, pay attention here. Well, that's third grade arithmetic. Add up my losses (-26). BaS40 wins 1 unit on every 1 and 1 unit on every 2. That is an average of +28, plus I won the 8 bet. That makes +36 vs -26. So I won the shoe with +10. No problem. That shoe had no 4s or 4+s until late in the last column - something so rare you are likely to never see it in your whole life and certainly NEVER in preshuffled cards - but I won the shoe anyway.

So what went wrong? Nothing. The players just got bored with +5. They wanted to win more.

The beauty of this system is it doesn't depend on biases. It depends solely on the extreme unliklihood of losing a 9 bet progression W/O hitting +5 along the way. And even if you ever should, you can make it a 12 bet prog or even a 15 bet prog like I did and still win the shoe like I did. That one time was the only time I ever lost the 9 bet prog - but I still won the shoe.

That's the same system we were playing at Stardust when the "Pro" started teasing us for not always betting OTR. We won every shoe. He lost every shoe.

This system likes random cards. Therefore I think it is ideal for "preshuffled" cards - especially after adding the OTB4L base and the S40M1 base - both highly effective.

But back to your point about playing instead of teaching. I like to play Goldstrike, Tunica. Went 3 years there full time without a losing session playing new cards in the morning which is my favorite time to play. Almost W/O a losing shoe.

So rather than teach for free 8 hours a day 7 days a week, I'm considering going back to playing full time. Tunica is only 2 hours away in my Z3. Ann would like to play too. She's getting sick and tired of me spending all our time on the computer. She has a life too and she is a top player.

Of course if I decide in that direction, I'll have no further use of the forum. It was just a hobby anyway. But hobbies are only good as long as they are fun. When your hobby turns on you it's time to find a new hobby. Guys that can't grasp that the forum needs to make money to exist aren't smart enough to play Baccarat anyway. And guys that are overly concerned about $150 to learn what I've learned over 30 years don't have the money to play anyway.

But guys that expect me to teach them everything I've learned over 30 years of successful play for free, and then demand that I teach them a whole new approach for free? Not likely. Prove it? I've already proved it over 30 years in front of hundreds of spectators. You weren't there? That's hardly my fault.

Most of the guys here are adult and both fun and dedicated and understand basic business principles. Others are purely antagonists. Right now the antagonists are winning the day. But if they win, everybody loses. The good guys need to make their voices heard. Don't let the antagonists win. Drown them out!

"something for nothing is worth nothing." FrontAl

Or said mathematically:

"1,000,000 X 0 is still 0" ECD

[Quizzical1]

Everyone please let’s have some respect, discipline and patients!

Realize that Ellis and Keith can abandon us at will; they are the only ones left that can help us advance above the 95% of losers. We all lost NormA, when he passed, a good friend who can stand shoulder to shoulder with Ellis and Keith. SO LET’S NOT CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WE MAY REGRET.

Leadership faces a lot of pressure. You cannot please everyone all the time. I agree the 4D Seminar was a failure for the price of entry. The failure lies with the participants having not prepared themselves properly with the knowledge of BASIC NOR, NOR+ and NET BETTING. Maybe, there should have been an exam qualifying the participants before attending. This is a suggestion for future Seminars.

Yes, Ellis and Keith might have been guilty of greed, by accepting Preschool Level Attendees to take a Post Graduate Course. However, that is spilled milk now under the bridge, lesson learned.

In the last few months before NormA passed, he told me Baccarat is starting to change due to Preshuffled Cards, I never got the chance to explore any further on that subject with him.

So everyone lets remain professional. Recouping our money can easily be achieved and sustained with the cost of learning and the cost of doing business. Ellis and Keith have need to charge us for their services rendered, and then take us on a journey of mastering preshuffled cards playing Baccarat.

Remaining loyal,

FrontAl

Not sure what anyone else's b!tch is here, but as for me it's solely the 4D Seminar video I paid $350 for that did not deliver. I agree - lesson learned - but why does it have to be at MY expense?

Ellis is 100% correct - it doesn't take a high IQ to figure out that this site needs income to maintain expenses, but it would take Kreskin to figure out whether a seminar is worth it before he bought it.

That's why I proposed a remedy that anyone who bought the 4D seminar video should get a free pass to this one to make up for the loss. Simple...BTC's bad for selling something that wasn't good - let's credit the ones who bought it with this one and move on. Only fair, don't you think?

I'm also not opposed to a monthly fee of $10 or so - AS LONG AS THE CONTENT IS WORTH IT!

I know some of the other members feel that they are contributing to a discussion - not as much as Ellis, possibly - but still contributing none the less to where it's significant. Once a membership fee is introduced the assumption becomes - "teach me"....exactly like signing up for a college course - you go into it knowing nothing and expect the teacher to impart the knowledge.

If it goes into membership mode, I'd expect the 3 ingredients from what I wrote in previous threads:

1. A teacher

2. A Manual

3. Plenty of example shoes

Standard for any college level course - and what BTC has always lacked (except for NOR).

[CdnChamer]

Not sure what anyone else's b!tch is here, but as for me it's solely the 4D Seminar I paid for that did not deliver. I agree - lesson learned - but why does it have to be at MY expense?

Ellis is 100% correct - it doesn't take a high IQ to figure out that this site needs income to maintain expenses, but it would take Kreskin to figure out whether a seminar is worth it before he bought it...

That's why I proposed a remedy that anyone who bought the 4D seminar should get a free pass to this one to make up for the loss. Simple...BTC's bad for selling something that wasn't good - let's credit the ones who bought it with this one and move on. Only fair, don't you think?

I'm also not opposed to a monthly fee of $10 or so - AS LONG AS THE CONTENT IS WORTH IT!

I know some of the other members feel that they are contributing to a discussion - not as much as Ellis, possibly - but still contributing non the less to where it's significant. Once a membership fee is introduced the assumption becomes - "teach me"....exactly like signing up for a college course - you go into it knowing nothing and expect the teacher to impart the knowledge.

If it goes into membership mode, I'd expect what I wrote in previous threads:

1. A teacher

2. A Manual

3. Plenty of example shoes

Standard for any college level course.

Hey Quiz... I agree that the attendees at the 4D seminar didn't get a fair shake as per what happened there, thank goodness I I cancelled in time as I saved myself money and grief.

As for a membership fee, I know at least 6 members who are not prepared to stay if this were to happen, one of them is a recent NOR member and there is another very smart cookie that will be missed from the forum. As for me, I found a way to beat pre -shuffled cards so it's not a biggie for me who was granted lifetime membership.... By Mr. Davis himself. But Keith has just posted his excuses about this and has told us he is "done". See his posting from yesterday addressed to Ellis.

I thought Vegas was a place for marriages to flourish, but I see a "Smith" vs. "Davis" divorce in the making.

Has Mr. Smith opened his mouth once again too soon before the brain did the thinking?

Perhaps.... But this couple needs each other. Perhaps some counselling is in order or shall we let the children (members) take sides? The members are the children of the divorcing couple and Fido too. Who gets what?

C'mon Keith.... Lighten up will ya? The kitchen might not be the best place for you as you don't seem to take the heat that well. Ellis is the master chef here along with a few ingredients thrown in by the children.

It sounds like NOR may not be on the menu much longer as like buddy holly songs won't play in American Pie, so there goes dessert as well.

It sounds as tho a minced version of NOR may be in the mix to be the next "winner winner, chicken dinner" to get +5 units. The item that is so difficult to make has vanished the menu?... "4D" with all it's 4 secret ingredients of selected herbs and spices. Yet if only the chef could serve this well... It would be worth a price greater than Steak & lobster.

As for the drinks, there is scotch for those who need and can't for get about whine that comes along with hiccups that happen along the way.

BTW.... That will be an extra charge please, along with a new monthly excise tax.

After your meal is completed, you are ready to go back to the casino.... Not to worry if you lose... BTC will be open 24/7 to serve up another special recipe to fill your appetite as long as you are a paying customer.

While there are other establishments out there that are under new management with new and different menus.

If you feel that you have not received proper service at BTC, there's always a safety net.... "ObamaCare"

Bon appetite'

CC

[moneybac]

"Obama care",now that's a system, tax collection,LOL

[PurpleInk]

Everyone here on this forum has benefitted from its existence. That is why we come back so often. This site is like no other. Even if Ellis was not the first to utter OTB4L. He put forward his time to perfect it and implement it. What Ellis gave back to Kramden and CC was 4D to which they improved to a point that they say they can win 100% of their shoes. So ultimately everyone benefits.

Many businesses with good ideas end up going out of business. Ellis and Keith put an immense amount of time and energy into this site. As they are on the forefront of what it takes to run this site. I have no issue with compensating them if that is what it takes to keep this site going. Ellis's mentorship, guidance, knowledge, insight and history of the game is worth it.

For the cost of one bet or the fraction of the cost of one bet we can continue this forum. This goose (Beatthecasino.com) has shown that it can lay golden eggs lets not kill it. We've seen what other baccarat sites have to offer that is why we are here.

[gman72]

Guys that can't grasp that the forum needs to make money to exist aren't smart enough to play Baccarat anyway. And guys that are overly concerned about $150 to learn what I've learned over 30 years don't have the money to play anyway.

But guys that expect me to teach them everything I've learned over 30 years of successful play for free, and then demand that I teach them a whole new approach for free? Not likely.

Who new paying $600 was asking for something for free? Oh well, no big deal. I've got the money and interest to learn the "new approach" so I've got my $150 ready to go. Let's move forward.

[trbfla]

Why do members continue to post negativity when they already have it figured out but don't want to help others?

Hooray your system works...why not go play it and leave the forum and take all your negative trash with you so those of us who wanna learn can do so without all your propaganda bs.

If you have a beef with Ellis handle it like a man....spewing your filthy laundry is akin to 4th graders.

You don't wanna contribute fine your perogative but don't clog up forums

I'm not saying don't pm me ha so don't even ask!!!!

That line is worth 10 a month

[Sport]

Oh,just like that i got my $150 so lets move on.you started the ball rolling on 4\10\2014 with your i'm unregistering comment.look every one who took a negative swing at keith and ellis needs to publicly apologize for their stupid remarks.when your working your ass off and its just not good enough,what else can you do but quit and walk away.last week it was loud mouth kramden,who i still can't figure what he was so pissed about.now its cc,another one who talks about lawsuits,i guess your part of the kramden posse too.my point is,before we go forward every apologizes for there negative comments[including kramden]and this shit doesn't belong here.like i said last week if your not happy go and start your own site.who the hell knew the economy was going to crash in 2006,this idea about all inclusive worked back then,it doesn't now.i love this site!!!!!!!!!!!

[CdnChamer]

Why do members continue to post negativity when they already have it figured out but don't want to help others?

Hooray your system works...why not go play it and leave the forum and take all your negative trash with you so those of us who wanna learn can do so without all your propaganda bs.

If you have a beef with Ellis handle it like a man....spewing your filthy laundry is akin to 4th graders.

You don't wanna contribute fine your perogative but don't clog up forums

I'm not saying don't pm me ha so don't even ask!!!!

That line is worth 10 a month

Would you really want me to post your pm's about how badly you play and how you have asked me for help over the past few months trbfla???

Ya... I think you fall in the category of a member with more money than brains and join your friend Ruebel and gman7 now there's a real winner who doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about.

We all paid for what's inclusive to the NOR content... A lifetime membership and yet you guys just brush it off like it was nothing.

You guys are so weak. Pitiful followers who need help.

What I said was all FACTs but you can't handle the truth, that's why you are responding in such a manner as above.

BTW, thank you to all those members with their supportive comment in my pm box over the past 48 hrs. Especially about the member who purchased Twister and got burnt badly.

CC

[Guest]

Who new paying $600 was asking for something for free? Oh well, no big deal. I've got the money and interest to learn the "new approach" so I've got my $150 ready to go. Let's move forward.

Yeah correct! The mistake was ours - Me and Keith. "Membership for life". We should have explained that a whole lot better. No question that was dumb.

We should have defined that as "NOR" membership that included any NOR changes - which there have been. We should have explained better that this did NOT include other forums or other products. That was definitely our fault. We live in an entitlement society. We should have anticipated the reaction

We did think from past history that our new member rate would be several times what is esp with our commission program.

I'm just not getting why Asian teaching programs are so greatly outpacing us at $7000 per student. And all they get is a seminar on Martingales or Baccarat Spirits or some such tomfoolery. They don't get a forum. 2 hours - $7000!

And we certainly don't have any competition that I know of on any other Bac forum.

What the hell are we doing wrong? Anybody have a clue?

I don't know what happened in that 4D seminar either??? I'm always familiar with all the user names at every seminar - except that one. More than half the user names I'd never heard before nor since. How the heck did these people even get wind of the seminar? These were just general public people.

On a different lighter front I have this other nagging problem. The letters and numbers keep wearing off my keyboard. I keep having to buy new keyboards. I guess I'm a heavy hitter. Is there a keyboard out there that doesn't fade? OR can you get pasties for your key board? Maybe in large print? If there isn't such a product maybe we should invent it and get a patent and sell it to Microsoft or H.P. or whoever - the highest bidder. Anybody?

[Action Mike]

I think the reality is that Keith and Ellis started a "business" here which was really a hobby. Nowadays the "hobby" appeal is gone and the "business" isn't profitable. I was once down this road. Because I love what I do as well, I looked at it as a business, changed my pricing model to something that worked, and today I have a staff of 5 instead of a 10 hour a week hobby. Most of my customers pay 5x what they used to pay. One or two of them left. The remainder realized what I realize here. The original "hobby" was undervalued, and we now have to pay what it is really worth. BTC needs to be run as a subscription based service with a monthly fee per user, regular scheduled webinars and the occasional classroom. I'm about a week away from getting off my ass and making Keith an offer. I'd rather not, because I have my hands full already, but I value this forum and if I have to carry it on my back to keep it going then I just might. We'll see what happens in my next 2 Vegas trips.

[Quizzical1]

Yeah correct! The mistake was ours - Me and Keith. "Membership for life". We should have explained that a whole lot better. No question that was dumb.

We should have defined that as "NOR" membership that included any NOR changes - which there have been. We should have explained better that this did NOT include other forums or other products. That was definitely our fault. We live in an entitlement society. We should have anticipated the reaction

We did think from past history that our new member rate would be several times what is esp with our commission program.

I'm just not getting why Asian teaching programs are so greatly outpacing us at $7000 per student. And all they get is a seminar on Martingales or Baccarat Spirits or some such tomfoolery. They don't get a forum. 2 hours - $7000!

And we certainly don't have any competition that I know of on any other Bac forum.

What the hell are we doing wrong? Anybody have a clue?

I don't know what happened in that 4D seminar either??? I'm always familiar with all the user names at every seminar - except that one. More than half the user names I'd never heard before nor since. How the heck did these people even get wind of the seminar? These were just general public people.

On a different lighter front I have this other nagging problem. The letters and numbers keep wearing off my keyboard. I keep having to buy new keyboards. I guess I'm a heavy hitter. Is there a keyboard out there that doesn't fade? OR can you get pasties for your key board? Maybe in large print? If there isn't such a product maybe we should invent it and get a patent and sell it to Microsoft or H.P. or whoever - the highest bidder. Anybody?

Ellis,

You could try one of these:

http://www.brookstone.com/laser-projection-virtual-keyboard

That will never wear out....;o]

Speaking for myself what I've found to be the main issue is organization of the site. Particularly what I mentioned in my previous post (Teacher, Manual and Sample shoes) and a standardized location for all so that newbies can access using a common sense table of contents or the like.

When I joined my 1st impression was the site appeared to be hap-hazardly arranged. Other than the initial NOR manual all other questions had to be "dug up" by reading multiple threads. And the appearance of the ADOT, RD1 etc systems only added to the confusion. Are they viable systems still? if not why not archive them in an aptly named folder. If they can be incorporated into the latest systems, fine too. Same goes for the 2-2-1 Gaming Approach - is it something that can add value to the latest methods?

Lastly, I'm not blaming you for the way the 4D seminar turned out - I just really don't get how someone could have reviewed the final video cut and honestly say it was worthy of selling - as a 4D video. Yes, you covered Net Betting excellently, but with all the distractions / mistakes the 4D never got off the ground. I had such high hopes....