5D another perspective

[avion]

I have been wanting to share this for awhile, but I wasn't able to due to home improvement repairs and and unexpected transmission rebuild on my car.  Now, that I am able to share this, there are several points to make clear from the very beginning.

1.  I did not create any of the columns and must give credit to others who did.  10 years ago, I simply complied them together.  I had no knowledge at the time that there was anything that was called 5D, so for the sake of communication I will call it that, and include "another perspective".

2.  After using this "data" for several thousand shoes, I certainly understand it will not be to everyones liking.  Nor should it be.  At casino speed, it has be practiced diligently to be able to chart without mistakes.  For an entire month I timed myself with a stop watch, on every single hand, and was able to chart it consistently with no mistakes in 5-7 seconds for each hand.  Then of course, you need the time to "read" each column, and know how they interact with each other, and select what and why you will bet on.  I will suggest that with the spread sheet, and the speed that it provides, it is good to use in online play, even though I personally believe online play is only good for practice.  Online play is not regulated, and with "electronic glitches" of live streaming, internet disconnections, and lack of knowledgeable dealers that make constant mistakes, with little to no supervision, and a host of other reasons too numerous to mention.

3.  Since I am merely sharing this, I won't be teaching it, as you can use the data from the score sheet to determine on your own what strategy, approach you want to use.  Most everyone here already knows what PB, OR, OTB/TBL is.  The additional perspectives of M1/M2 and O/E, I will clearly explain.

4.  For the spread sheet included, I did not create it.  The credit for it goes to someone else, who wants to remain anonymous, simply due to the amount of the work the individual does in making a living.  

5.  You can do this as you want, and use any or several of the columns as you want to.  Example....you may like using PB, M1, M2, and OE.  You may like using PB, OTB/TBL, M1/M2.  Simply you can make it into a 2D, 3D, 4D, etc using what you like and you feel is the most effective for you.  

6.  I will ask, that you do not share this in the public forum, simply because this is for MEMBERS of BTC, and as my contribution to BTC in gratitude for everyone and for Keith who has kept BTC alive and for the direction that he has chosen to take it.  

7.  There will be several posts that I will continue on here, and I apologize in advance, that I do not have the knowledge nor skills to put it in a pdf format, or instructional book form. If someone does have the knowledge and skills to do so, please feel free to do so and post it accordingly.

5D v8.xlsx

[avion]

Numbering viewpoint on the spread sheet.  

You will notice (example Player Banker chart and the other charts also)  in number the decisions...after either side loses, the next time that decision side comes on in, it comes in as a 1 to possibly help in being able to see how many on each side goes to, regarding 1s, 2s, 3s, and more in a row.  

You will also notice there is a "overall count" for each column, (player banker for example) that gives you a viewpoint of there being a strong side, weak side, or running close to neutral.  

[avion]

Using the spread sheet.

Notice from left to right on the spread sheet.

1.  The first column is for the creation of the spread sheet....numbering the cells and you don't need to do anything with it, so just leave it as it is.

2.  Next column Hand...has already been filled in to help you with your hand designation numbers, for your reference use.

3.  Next column Bet.....You will enter P OR B....and you do that in CAPS or in lower case for what your decision on the bet you are making.  Even if you are designating your bet on the data of another column, it must be reflected in terms of P or B, accordingly.  

4. Next column U.....means unit.  You can leave it blank and it is automatically set for a 1 unit bet.  If you want to bet more than 1 unit....you will need to enter that number in the U column.

5. Next column.....is BLANK.  Accordingly to where you place the bet and the unit or units....it will automatically add or deduct your running bet total.

6. Next column.....ACTUAL OUTCOME.  This is what decision actually took place in the shoe......so you enter a P or B......UPPER or LOWER case, either will work. The result of that decision and all subsequent entries, will automatically be added to the rest of the columns.

7.  You will notice after the O/E column there is a traditional Sap chart for your reference and it is automatically counted for you.

8.  Next you will notice a WIN......LOSE.....and % column that will automatically figure your number of wins, losses, and percentage.

9.  The next columns are not to be changed as they deal strictly with the programming of the spread sheet.  

10.  At the bottom left of the spread, you will see the tabs, analyzer, info, drop down list, and graphs.  The analyzer is the portion of the spread that you will use to record the hands of the shoe.  The info tab is simply for any notes you want to enter to remember.  The drop down list is not to be written in.  And if you like line graphs of the shoe, you will find them in that tab.  

11.  Please make a copy of the spread sheet to file away, and then make working copies of the spread sheet to use.  It is easy to make a mistake in the entries, and sometimes corrupt the spread sheet through making errors.  By making copies of the spread sheet and KEEPING the original in a safe place, if you corrupt a spread sheet.....you will always have a non-corrupted spread sheet to use.  

 

[avion]

PB, OR, OTB/TBL

Most everyone should know what these columns represent, and if not, then of course please ask.  So I don't need to elaborate further on this.

[avion]

M1/M2

This is a valid perspective to use.  I can certainly understand a person might consider it otherwise, until they understand the way it is designed, and what it does and doesn't do.

Originally, everything in recorded as M1 was done with a red pen, and M2 a blue pen.  I chose to simplify that on the spread sheet for M1 in the color red, and leaving M2 in black. It was done strictly as a "visual aid".

First off, even if you don't understand how M1/M2 is charted...the spread sheet will do that for you automatically.

Here is the instructions on how M1/M2 is charted.

On the very first hand of the hand...it is neither M1 nor M2.

It is ONLY after the 1st hand, that M1 is the first to be charted.  M1 goes OPPOSITE of the 1st hand in the shoe ALWAYS.  Let's say the 1st hand is a player.  Then, M1 would be charted on BANKER.  So let's say Banker was the second hand of the shoe.....the second hand would then be a M1.  Now for example....let's say player is the 1st of the shoe....M1 is to be charted on banker....BUT....the second hand of the shoe is also a player.  M1 did not come in......so the M1 chart would still be blank.  

M1 then goes to player on the 3rd hand.  SIMPLY....for M1....it goes OPPOSITE THE 1st hand of the shoe and then continues THROUGH THE ENTIRE SHOE in a zig-zag manner regardless of the decision of player or banker.  So for this example......player was the 1st hand......M1 on the second goes to banker....then player, then banker, then player......for the rest of the shoe.

M2 ALWAYS starts after the 2nd hand of the shoe.  So player was the 1st hand, and banker was the second hand.  M2 ALWAYS goes OPPOSITE OF M1 through the entire shoe in the same zig zag manner.  I understand this may be confusing at first until you see and understand how it works.  So, just get the spread sheet and enter some player and banker decisions and you will see....that M2 ALWAYS goes opposite where M1 is designated.  

Remember....M2 does not start until the 3rd hand of the shoe, and goes opposite of M1.  

Once you see how M1/M2 is charted and you understand it......you will see another "interesting perspective" in charting a shoe, and it is a valid one.

[avion]

O/E

O represents ODD and E represents EVEN.

I have received comments in the past, that ODD and EVEN are for roulette.  No doubt that is absolutely true.  And yet, the "perspective" of odd and even can also be applied to baccarat decisions in a another valid manner.  

The basis....1,3,5,7,9,11, etc are odd numbers.  2,4,6,8,10 etc are even numbers.

Using ODD and EVEN in a baccarat shoe.  The 1st hand in a shoe, is always NEITHER ODD or EVEN.  I don't want to go into the concepts of a "Closed Universe and Open Universe" here, regarding the start of a shoe.  So, for this, just simply accept that the 1st hand of the shoe is neither odd or even.

ONLY THE SECOND HAND IN THE SHOE.....becomes ODD OR EVEN....and then continues throughout the entire shoe.

With the preceding in mind.....and the 1st hand of the shoe being player.  The second hand of the shoe is a banker for example.  That SECOND HAND would be an ODD.  Now, let's say the 1st hand again was a player, and the second hand of the shoe is also a player.  That second player becomes a EVEN.  

Review.....1st hand...is player.......2nd hand is banker......banker is a ODD.....because it is a 1.

Review......1st hand is player......2nd hand is player.....player is a EVEN because it is a 2. 

Now......this is where it can be easily confused....if not clearly understood, how ODD and EVEN continues in a shoe.

Example.....1st hand is player......second hand is banker......banker is a ODD.  THIRD hand is a banker and it becomes a EVEN. (2)  PLACE CLOSE ATTENTION NOW......fourth hand is a player....and becomes a EVEN.  Why?  ANYTIME.....ONE SIDE ENDS on a 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc (EVEN) and goes to the other side AFTER A EVEN it is also a EVEN.  You might need to re--read this several times to understand this concept.  Also, use a spread sheet to visually see that.  

Regarding now ODD.  1st hand is player....second hand is banker...Banker is now an ODD.  Third hand is a player making player a ODD.  Why......ANYTIME A SIDE ENDS on a 1,3,5,7,9,11, etc and goes to the other side.....it is a ODD.   So let's say there are 3 bankers in a row...and the next decision goes to player.....the last banker is a ODD (3) and the next hand on player is ALSO A ODD.  Again to understand this you may have to re-read this several times, and also use a spread sheet to visually see that. 

I fully understand it can be a different way than what you might be used to.  Just remember that this is also another "perspective" in charting a shoe.  I must add that is a valid perspective, just as M1/M2 is.  

[avion]

In closing this.

If you are interested and want to take the time to do so, I can assure you it is an interesting study.  

You will notice aspects like that OTB4L and EVEN are very closely related.  The difference being when EVEN ends on one side and goes to the opposite side, you have two evens in a row, and a possible development of EVENS continuing to begin a run of EVENS.

You will notice that OPPOSITES and ODD are very closely related.  And you will also see when ODD continues for a possible development ODDS continuing to begin a run of ODDS.

You will also notice....when Player and Banker have large runs.....M1/M2 and O/E will have a lot of 1's and 2's and run close to neutral.

You will also notice when Player and Banker is running "small" like 1's 2's etc......M1/M2 and O/E will be running "large" in numbers.  

The rest that you will notice....is the hard work, and study it takes....whether it is this....or any other means of charting, observing, reading the shoe, etc.  

So, thank you for allowing me to share this with you.  No disclaimer needed......as there isn't any "holy grail" out there....and this certainly isn't either.  

[XDN]

Wow! I know what I'm doing over Thanksgiving weekend....studying! thank you!

[Pando]

19 hours ago, avion said:

O/E

O represents ODD and E represents EVEN.

I have received comments in the past, that ODD and EVEN are for roulette.  No doubt that is absolutely true.  And yet, the "perspective" of odd and even can also be applied to baccarat decisions in a another valid manner.  

The basis....1,3,5,7,9,11, etc are odd numbers.  2,4,6,8,10 etc are even numbers.

Using ODD and EVEN in a baccarat shoe.  The 1st hand in a shoe, is always NEITHER ODD or EVEN.  I don't want to go into the concepts of a "Closed Universe and Open Universe" here, regarding the start of a shoe.  So, for this, just simply accept that the 1st hand of the shoe is neither odd or even.

ONLY THE SECOND HAND IN THE SHOE.....becomes ODD OR EVEN....and then continues throughout the entire shoe.

With the preceding in mind.....and the 1st hand of the shoe being player.  The second hand of the shoe is a banker for example.  That SECOND HAND would be an ODD.  Now, let's say the 1st hand again was a player, and the second hand of the shoe is also a player.  That second player becomes a EVEN.  

Review.....1st hand...is player.......2nd hand is banker......banker is a ODD.....because it is a 1.

Review......1st hand is player......2nd hand is player.....player is a EVEN because it is a 2. 

Now......this is where it can be easily confused....if not clearly understood, how ODD and EVEN continues in a shoe.

Example.....1st hand is player......second hand is banker......banker is a ODD.  THIRD hand is a banker and it becomes a EVEN. (2)  PLACE CLOSE ATTENTION NOW......fourth hand is a player....and becomes a EVEN.  Why?  ANYTIME.....ONE SIDE ENDS on a 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc (EVEN) and goes to the other side AFTER A EVEN it is also a EVEN.  You might need to re--read this several times to understand this concept.  Also, use a spread sheet to visually see that.  

Regarding now ODD.  1st hand is player....second hand is banker...Banker is now an ODD.  Third hand is a player making player a ODD.  Why......ANYTIME A SIDE ENDS on a 1,3,5,7,9,11, etc and goes to the other side.....it is a ODD.   So let's say there are 3 bankers in a row...and the next decision goes to player.....the last banker is a ODD (3) and the next hand on player is ALSO A ODD.  Again to understand this you may have to re-read this several times, and also use a spread sheet to visually see that. 

I fully understand it can be a different way than what you might be used to.  Just remember that this is also another "perspective" in charting a shoe.  I must add that is a valid perspective, just as M1/M2 is.  

I like this concept Avion, thank you

I used the concept in a horrible shoe from yesterday in which I finished exactly even to the dollar.

Here it is P11121221412144111422112211121213141122212

The shoe showed no real consistent bias of any kind (for me anyway)

But plotting it using the ODD/EVEN concept threw out a bias of -12

I have more work to do, but it looks interesting

Thanks for sharing

[XDN]

Avion...SUPER interesting. Would you be kind enough to give an example of how you play the even and odd bias? Maybe M1/M2 as well. Don't need a whole shoe maybe 10-15 plays. Thank you!

Edited November 21, 2016 by XDotNet

[avion]

7 hours ago, Pando said:

But plotting it using the ODD/EVEN concept threw out a bias of -12

Good eye Pando and that is exactly why I compiled it.  You will also see some shoes in certain columns, depending on the shoe, that get into the + or - high teens and a few 20 and more.

You just never know which column will take off like that, and still I have no doubt with your skill that you will easily see it.  

You are kindly welcome, and it is a joy and privilege for me to finally have the time to share this with you and everyone else here, as another tool for the best baccarat tool box in the world, composed of the best baccarat players found anywhere.

 

[avion]

5 hours ago, XDotNet said:

Avion...SUPER interesting. Would you be kind enough to give an example of how you play the even and odd bias? Maybe M1/M2 as well. Don't need a whole shoe maybe 10-15 plays. Thank you!

XDotNet......I used 4 things.  1. Strong Side  2. What I refer to as "Walls" when players or bankers are connected with no 1's between them, and there must be a 3 in a row on one side and a 2 in row on the other side for it to be considered the beginning of a possible continuation of a "Wall".  3. Sporadic....meaning one side of a column must have a 3 in a row, a 1 on the opposite side and then a 2 in a row on the 3 in a row side, to be considered the start of a possible continuation of a Sporadic.  4.  S40 with M1, M2, and M3, accordingly when a column is never going more than a 3 in a row.  When a column is consistently running high in 1's, 2's, and no more than 3's.  

I flat bet a lot.....and never use any progression more than a 1,2.....in a negative progression and also in a positive progression, but that is just how I am "wired" mentally and emotionally.  It is important for you to honestly know how you are "wired".  

Honestly.....Everyone is different in their preferred strategies, money management, betting progressions, etc, and that is where no one can do it for you, and you have to do it for yourself, and it takes time, dedication and hard hard hard work.  There aren't any short cuts and no easy way.  Imagine charting a shoe with just pen and paper using this version of 5D, and then being able to know what and where to place your next bet to win at casino speed.  I fully understand with all my heart why some have absolutely no interest in a 4 let alone a 5D.  It is dam hard to do, very hard to do.  You can shorten the spread sheet and use P/B, O/R, and OTB/TBL.  I honestly suggest start out with just PB. Then add OR, then OTB/TBL, etc etc.  Learn what each column does because of what Player and Banker is doing and isn't doing.  This is by no means a easy way to play if you don't understand every aspect of each column.  I taught this to a lady friend who didn't even know what baccarat was and didn't even know how to spell it.  It took 6 years for her to learn it and become successful using it.  She is now on her own and winning every single week of the year.  It was a huge amount of work on my part and her part. So is it worth it? 

To answer your question as to how to play M1/M2 and O/E....exactly the same way in the 4 things I mentioned.  And still...if there is a strategy that you like....test it out on any column accordingly. Are you looking for the highest bias?  Are you looking for a neutral bias? Accordingly always to what the shoe is doing and isn't doing.  It won't cost you a penny to enter it into the spread sheet and see how it does.  No matter what you use, I strongly suggest you do a minimum of 100 shoes.  5 to 15 shoes will only give you a limited viewpoint, and the more shoes you do, the more clearly you will be able to identify what you should and should not use, as well as when and when not.  Practice in a QUALITY manner, of observing, learning, seeing and understanding, not in a manner of just entering data to see the numbered results, as you won't learn a thing when you do that. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by avion

[kachatz1]

Hey, AV

Great, Great effort and presentation here!

Yes, I continue to use 5D in the form I wrote it up, but this offers an interesting twist on that.

Most important to anyone wanting to give it a try is you can take that 5-7 seconds for recording the past shoe results to your scorecard TO THE BANK, giving you plenty of time to analyze " what to do next"

     - Bet Selection

     - Money management techniques ( flat - 1,2 loop - etc, etc.)

     - No bet at all ( conflicting indicators? Just not comfortable? Lost a few hands in a row and need-to-regroup your thoughts? Restroom-break?)

all this, and can be done at casino speed if you want to work at it...AND IT WORKS...you decide your stop loss/stop win B4 the shoe starts ( and up to you to stick to it...)

Its just a question of do you believe Baccarat is a game of chance? Or a game of Skill?

Even in the face of a seemingly mind-boggling myriad of possibilities for sequence of events over an 80 hand shoe...8 decks...P/B...what's next????

it is a Science of Chance, and it is a Science of Skill ( F*** the ArtPart)

It can, and is being WON at casino speed.

 

thanks, AV for posting this...

 

Kevin

 

[avion]

1 hour ago, kachatz1 said:

Hey, AV

Great, Great effort and presentation here!

Kevin, thank you for your kindness of compliments. Genuinely appreciated especially from a highly esteemed member here of BTC that you are.  I compiled and used it for the last 10 years, before I knew there was a description for it as 5D.  When I first got back on here, I immediately was intrigued by the 5D here and the 5D you created.  So, I thought to share what I compiled and named it "5D Another Perspective" to keep it in the 5D family.  I agree with you in that it can be charted with pen and paper and each decision done in 5-7 seconds with a lot of practice.  It demands a very high level of focus, attention, along with the ability to read the data and clearly see what the shoe is and isn't doing.  Again I must say I truly understand it isn't for everybody, as everyone has their own personal preferences in what they are comfortable and proficient in.  

I love being a member here....to share and also learn with some of the best baccarat minds found anywhere.  You and so many others here.....are truly the best of the very best.

thank you Kevin, you really made my day even better, Rick