If you are serious about winning Baccarat...

[ECD]

and want to save yourself some serious money...

Stay the hell away from CFC...Why pay good money to learn how to lose?

There is some funny shit on there though...Here is another classic

 

nickster wrote:

Hi Ellis , it was nice to see that you are feeling good , keep it up for all of us. This is a great post  ( good input Max ) lately i have been practicing playing baccarat of the Tote Board (WTF!...over 20 years of Baccarat and you are finally learning to understand the Tote Board?...God save you from having to learn something complicated like tying your own shoelaces) w/o keeping the score, it was hard at the beginning ( old habits die hard ) key thing it going in the right direction, this Saturday i played four shoes at my local casino ( two different tables ) I won three shoes , one was really great it was almost all 1 iar  on the player side with only 2x2s and rest were all banks...WOW!...I'm impressed...you played 4 shoes...one an absolute GIMMEE SS that my left testicle would beat... and only lost 1 out of the other three...LOL... forth shoe within 20 hands i lost - 5 units and quit ! only Con is , i did not have score card to look for my mistakes when I got home .
My goal was to put myself in the position that no matter what type of shoe our friendly Casino is  presenting , I always know what is the best course of action to take to turn the odds to my favor , thanks to Ellis ,  I have reached that point ! I do not see any reason why any member here  can not do the same ! I am looking forward to The Final Word  manual ( Collector item for me )
Ellis gave us the knowledge , it is up to us to assimilate it , practice at home , and in Casino with discipline and control to  become a winner, each and every one of us !!!

 

This is the same guy who developed the much touted and spruiked by Ellis..."SECRET WEAPON"...the 6 7 8 Progression...I call it the BS Progression...The progression you play when you are not really playing a progression...the closest thing you can get to Flat Betting without actually Flat Betting...LMFAO

 

This is the guy responsible for this gem of a post...

 

I have found that using the Secret Weapon is the best and safest way you can play baccarat !
This Secret Weapon is so powerful it’s insane ! Ellis , the Secret Weapon is much more powerful then Norm’s 1 — 2 loop prog ,
we all know that Norm made over 2 million playing 1 — 2 loop prog , imagine what he would have made if he was playing our Secret Weapon ??? YEP...just imagine if Norm had been using a 1- 1.16- 1.33  Progression... LOL...Too stupid for words
Guys I am a life long student of the game of baccarat ( it’s my passion ) I can honestly tell you that Ellis is the first person that I met in my life that knew more about baccarat then i did , You need to get out more (and spend some of your winnings on English Grammar lessons...LOL) that’s why i am here at CFC

 

And this reply by Ellis should go down in the annals of Baccarat Stupidity...

Ellis Davis says:

July 20, 2016 at 2:35 am

OUR SECRET WEAPON:

Well there is one other important ingredient you will get right off the bat. We call it our SECRET WEAPON. It is a very recent discovery brought about by member participation.The fact is 100 heads are better than one. We pooled our experience to come up with our secret weapon. WTF...It took 100 collective brains on CFC to discover FLAT BETTING...This is too funny...LOL... NOBODY ELSE KNOWS IT! The only place you will ever see it is right here in the private forum.The casinos have never seen it and have no defense for it, yet it is perfectly legal. It is a mathematical trick that drastically increases our wins while decreasing our risk. While highly mathematical it is very easy to learn. We will show you casino shoes on score cards played both with and without our secret weapon so you can see for yourself the effect it has on your score. We are talking drastic effect that can double or even triple your win while reducing your risk. ANYBODY can learn it in a matter of minutes and it can be used with any system including SS. With our secret weapon you will first achieve your first 100 unit day and next, your first 100 unit shoe all while decreasing your risk. I realize that sounds impossible but you will soon see it in action for yourself – actual casino shoes fully played out on score cards. A simple mathematical trick anybody can perform that nobody else knows even that it exists but US.

Funny how none of the collective of 100 Baccarat Einsteins could work out that if your base bet is 6...then your total of units won (or lost) has to be divided by 6...The SECRET WEAPON...6 7 8 progression... is effectively Flat Betting by another name. 

Ellis must have parked his 160 IQ in the Loo when he wrote this...either that or he was hitting the turps big time (Aussie expression meaning drunk as a skunk) 

YEP...it appears that the much-hyped "SECRET WEAPON" has gone the way of the Dinosaurs...LOL              

As I recall...several of our BTC players picked up on the reality of "THE SECRET WEAPON" being a tiny(but complicated) step up from Flat Betting immediately... as distinct from "The Collective Brains Trust" on CFC that blindly follow and believe the dribble that they are constantly drip fed.

Some of you must wonder why I bother reading the Forum That Cannot Be Named"...Pretty simple really...I find it a great way to start the day because the posts by the CBT100 (Collective Brains Trust) always make me feel so superior...LMFAO

YEAH...I know, Keith...I know...Bad Oz 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by ECD

[brad01]

Thanks Oz its good to start the day with a smile on my face

You just cant help yourself can you!

[ECD]

19 minutes ago, brad01 said:

Thanks Oz its good to start the day with a smile on my face

You just cant help yourself can you!

Bad Oz?

[ECD]

Yeah Brad...I'd love to meet that "intellectually challenged" individual that dared to insinuate that his style of play is superior to Norm's. Norm made $2million in a little over two years while this idiot still hasn't learned how to read a bloody Tote Board after 20 years of play. I'd love to shove his "Secret Weapon" right up somewhere where it wouldn't be a secret anymore (leastwise...till he went to the Loo) 

[wonka068]

I thought the casinos were our enemy not other players,Oz you must have a good view up there on your high horse.The idea is to get as much information as you can and use the parts that will improve your play.Some information is helpful some not so much, but that is up to each individual to work out for themselves.Ellis information the same some helpful some not so much.Your information lets kick the shit out of Ellis, helpful, well not so much.I can remember when you asked the questions and were answered.As a member I asked you a question about the star casino in sydney but no answer.I wonder how far you would have got in the beginning on your own with no information and no answers to you questions.This site needs to get back on track or close. 

[ECD]

1 hour ago, wonka068 said:

I thought the casinos were our enemy not other players,Oz you must have a good view up there on your high horse.The idea is to get as much information as you can and use the parts that will improve your play.Some information is helpful some not so much, but that is up to each individual to work out for themselves.Ellis information the same some helpful some not so much.Your information lets kick the shit out of Ellis, helpful, well not so much.I can remember when you asked the questions and were answered.As a member I asked you a question about the star casino in sydney but no answer.I wonder how far you would have got in the beginning on your own with no information and no answers to you questions.This site needs to get back on track or close. 

 

[ECD]

1 hour ago, wonka068 said:

I thought the casinos were our enemy not other players,Oz you must have a good view up there on your high horse.The idea is to get as much information as you can and use the parts that will improve your play.Some information is helpful some not so much, but that is up to each individual to work out for themselves.Ellis information the same some helpful some not so much.Your information lets kick the shit out of Ellis, helpful, well not so much.I can remember when you asked the questions and were answered.As a member I asked you a question about the star casino in sydney but no answer.I wonder how far you would have got in the beginning on your own with no information and no answers to you questions.This site needs to get back on track or close. 

I was gonna rip you a new a/hole but I'm in a good mood. 

OK...The main reason I tear into the other Forum is that contrary to popular opinion...I have an inbuilt sense of fairness and I hate to see people get ripped off. I was ripped off by Ellis myself when I first joined BTC before he moved to "The Dark Side" ...but that is all behind me...part of the learning experience. 

I get really pissed off at blatant BS scamming which is what is happening on the other site. Outrageous claims of success are being made about untested systems. I have access to every infallible system Ellis has released even before he releases them and it only takes me a few hours of testing to debunk each of them. I onsend these same systems to other players of fair to middling ability for testing and they too back up my claims. The question has to be asked...How can you claim to have developed an " invincible" system and be flogging it off for outrageous sums when it hasn't been fully tested? That's wrong on so many levels. People pay good money for these systems in good faith thinking they are buying a finished product only to find when they gain access to the Private Forum that Ellis and the CFC CBT100 are still trying to make these unfinished systems work.

People that I have come to regard as friends have been banned from CFC because they dared to question the "Great Man"...No refund offered for the Baccarat Bible that they didn't receive...Access denied to The Private Forum...$1000 down the tube...Paid two years in advance for a product that was promised within months...and came up empty.

Totally unethical behaviour

And since I mentioned "The Final Word"...This Bible of Baccarat is only 23 Pages long..."23 FREAKING PAGES" and all of it except for ANB is available on this site without having to outlay stupid money.

ANB is just another Negative Progression that will always lose in the long run.

THE BS just keeps flowing over there..."The Secret Weapon" ...How anyone with half a brain could take longer than 30 secs to realise that it was not much better than Flat Betting is beyond my comprehension...LMFAO...6 7 8 Progression...It doesn't get much better than that...LOL 

And Ellis's Team of Disciples...He uses them to help with his Scams. The claims of an outside source testing these systems...LOL...This is the same outside source that made crazy claims about previous systems and then came on here admitting that they weren't working and foraging for information. I still have his emails...sneaky little shit.          Why would you object to me blowing the lid on this scam?...Every half decent player I know agrees with me. 

I get PM's and emails from angry members of the other site that have found the systems they purchased don't work...Mostly...I can't help them...I can't teach people what I do...It's not mechanical...it's an extension of Norm's "Follow The Shoe" which is available somewhere on this site...No Negative Progression...but a serious way to learn how to beat the casino without ever making a bet higher than 2 units.  

BTW: You mentioned that I ignored a question from you...Seriously...Have you any idea how many questions I get asked? FFS!  I honestly can't be arsed reading them half the time. But I checked up anyway...I assume this is it..." Hi oz do you get to The Star any more in Sydney ???"...Not meaning to be nasty...but the fact that I didn't answer it is hardly going to change your life.

As for me being on my "High Horse"...I freaking earned my high horse and I freaking earned the right to protect people who don't know any better from being scammed. I earned the right by hard work and ridiculous hours of study which I suspect you want to avoid. There are more people that you know on this site that are winning at Baccarat and all of them have two things in common..." dedication and hard work"

This site and the members here can point the way...Stats for Profit is a brilliant concept and can improve your performance at the tables exponentially...But only you can decide if it's worth the effort. 

[ECD]

BTW: Have you any idea of how much time involved in those "Play by Plays" explaining my thought processes on every hand? I do it hoping that somebody on BTC might just get a few ideas...jog a few brain cells. Don't you dare freaking whine at me for overlooking your freaking question...I was most likely out riding on that high horse you mentioned

[ECD]

4 hours ago, wonka068 said:

I thought the casinos were our enemy not other players,Oz you must have a good view up there on your high horse.The idea is to get as much information as you can and use the parts that will improve your play.Some information is helpful some not so much, but that is up to each individual to work out for themselves.Ellis information the same some helpful some not so much.Your information lets kick the shit out of Ellis, helpful, well not so much.I can remember when you asked the questions and were answered.As a member I asked you a question about the star casino in sydney but no answer.I wonder how far you would have got in the beginning on your own with no information and no answers to you questions.This site needs to get back on track or close. 

6

BTW: You want me to treat these wanna be Baccarat Players on the other site as a "Protected Species"... Ellis and his Disciples were having a collective laugh at the thought of the all the BTC boys losing at the "Vegas Meet Up"...YEP...They all thought it was funny...had a good laugh at the thought of fellow players losing their hard earned...But as the Donald would say..."FAKE FREAKING NEWS"...didn't happen...The BTC boys won.

Are you starting to have second thoughts about misplaced sympathy?  

[zeckam]

Any new players who come into BTC, do not expect to be spoon-fed or a dedicated instructor to hold your hands. 

You also need to have some basic baccarat knowledge to understand the baccarat concepts information available in BTC to benefit from here.

In this site, there are volunteering instructors who have to spend most of their time in continuous learning and playing to earn their income so don't expect full time dedication from them. 

However saying that I have met a couple of the guys here who have given a lot of their time helping me in my play. 

I spent over one year here. Although I have not been winning overall, I have become a better player and still trying to find a way of playing that wins consistently and suit my style. 

It is getting tough as casino is constantly adjusting their shoes strategy. You have to fine-tune your bet selection strategy to handle the shoes.

My two cents worth to new members coming on board.

[wonka068]

Thanks zeckam but I need no one to hold my hand to win at baccarat.I flat bet with the occasional 2 bet and im about the same age as oz. I annoy my friend who plays progression but he is set in his ways when I try to hit 10 wins in a row 8, 9 and 10 are hard but hit it thursday just my little challenge.The best players I know are on the webb my friends cant play and I see no good players at the casino,a few weeks ago a player was up 4.2 million playing strong side norms favorite, single baker long player repeating then lost to two bankers left the table walked straight into another strong side shoe this time single banker long players playing half and full table limit table limit 100,000. I was impressed till I saw him get smashed on a shoe with twos and threes 100,000 gone followed by another etc.Oz is right it is hard to show someone how to make a decision reading the board and seeing what the o and t are doing etc.The other way is playing a method that wins a little sometimes and losses a lot most times,anyway I wish everyone the best

[ECD]

Mr. Wonka,

Before I added my input to this thread, I noticed that you are classified as a "Junior Member".   It also said that you have contributed three total posts to the forum which I see are negative posts calling into question one of the most knowledgeable members of the forum who VOLUNTEERS his opinions.  

Like Oz & W2F, I have been kicked out of CFC.  Oz took the time to articulate all of the concerns CFC brings to the table.  His intentions (Always unique and entertaining) are to warn all that is about to bite the bait and get hooked, that these "Secret Weapons" and "Can't Miss" systems come out at least two to three times a year.   Ellis then sweetens that bait by telling everyone that the casinos are on to them and will have to close their billion dollar casinos if they don't figure out Ellis & Butt Kissing disciples red & green betting systems.  

Again, Oz took the time to explain to your rude post.  If I were you, I would go all in at CFC, pay Ellis and Dean every cent that they are asking for and go to every seminar that they offer.  After a few months to a year when you are out tons of money from one "can't miss" system after another you come crawling back begging for forgiveness. 

[wonka068]

To McVince

Post 4 Classified Junior Member

ANB

2 hi nett bett / NEtt bet not for me 

Mvd

MDB

S40 Exe

All works when it's happening

Never get in trouble if you can Read the board it's only a game 

P.s  If you now the Secret Weapon the all in BET McVince you Cannot loss I can sell to you or sorry Scam as some say 

but no will give to you for FREE yes FREEeeee

Yes the SECRET WEAPON You can't miss

" The No BET "

Junior Member 

Premium Player 

LOL 

 

 

 

 

[brad01]

I have a secret weapon too. When I see a good table that is crowded I walk up and drop a huge fart and it clears the table.

then I sit down and play.

so far it has worked every time

[ECD]

20 minutes ago, brad01 said:

I have a secret weapon too. When I see a good table that is crowded I walk up and drop a huge fart and it clears the table.

then I sit down and play.

so far it has worked every time

So ...you are the a/hole that keeps doing that...GRRR!

[ECD]

1 hour ago, wonka068 said:

To McVince

Post 4 Classified Junior Member

ANB

2 hi nett bett / NEtt bet not for me 

Mvd

MDB

S40 Exe

All works when it's happening

Never get in trouble if you can Read the board it's only a game 

P.s  If you now the Secret Weapon the all in BET McVince you Cannot loss I can sell to you or sorry Scam as some say 

but no will give to you for FREE yes FREEeeee

Yes the SECRET WEAPON You can't miss

" The No BET "

Junior Member 

Premium Player 

LOL 

 

 

 

 

Huh?   I don't get what you are trying to say.  I think you are trying to defend CFC and if you are it is your opinion and you are entitled to it.   If you are going to waste your money, at least give it to charity. 

[wonka068]

NO McVince

I am sick off all the negative stuff 

i am not Defending anybody cannot give a flying fffffffff about CFC or BTC wot i am Defending Ellis is still a very good player so give credit where credit is due i done agree with everything people do but a lot of things he does is very good and a lot of his stuff is good even if you only get one thing out off it to help you 

So Please do you thinK if Ellis or any educated play walked up to a table a can read the board they would just Play ANB i BET THEY WOULDNT DO THAT 

Still Ellis thought a lot of Players here how to play OZ, W2F, (Norm God Bless )  Exe 

Then they went and worked how they can make it work for them

SEE Every body thinks OZ and W2F have some magic trick well they do not   hard work and dedication  people think if they showed me well i can do the same but no about 1%  couldn't do it and people say why not maybe cannot handle it  most of the time people just cannot comprehend it 

Example

When they are lossing they go on tilt and start Gambling thats wot the Casinos wait for 

I remember Ellis saying  i dont think any body could do this Norm could walk up to a roulette board and  watch two tables at the same time and play the R/B and B/S Biases at the same time  unbelievable

So Wot i am saying even if you can play S40 play that and master it you can win a million dollars playing that play it when you see it and if you dont see it dont play and stop when you loss one or two and wait for it  if its not your Day go Home Let me say OZ and W2F Go home when its not there day no good winning 9 days and losing it all on day 10  

 

 

[wonka068]

Sorry 1% COULD DO IT BIG FINGERS 

 

[ECD]

 

1 hour ago, wonka068 said:

NO McVince

I am sick off all the negative stuff 

i am not Defending anybody cannot give a flying fffffffff about CFC or BTC wot i am Defending Ellis is still a very good player so give credit where credit is due i done agree with everything people do but a lot of things he does is very good and a lot of his stuff is good even if you only get one thing out off it to help you 

So Please do you thinK if Ellis or any educated play walked up to a table a can read the board they would just Play ANB i BET THEY WOULDNT DO THAT 

Still Ellis thought a lot of Players here how to play OZ, W2F, (Norm God Bless )  Exe 

Then they went and worked how they can make it work for them

SEE Every body thinks OZ and W2F have some magic trick well they do not   hard work and dedication  people think if they showed me well i can do the same but no about 1%  couldn't do it and people say why not maybe cannot handle it  most of the time people just cannot comprehend it 

Example

When they are lossing they go on tilt and start Gambling thats wot the Casinos wait for 

I remember Ellis saying  i dont think any body could do this Norm could walk up to a roulette board and  watch two tables at the same time and play the R/B and B/S Biases at the same time  unbelievable

So Wot i am saying even if you can play S40 play that and master it you can win a million dollars playing that play it when you see it and if you dont see it dont play and stop when you loss one or two and wait for it  if its not your Day go Home Let me say OZ and W2F Go home when its not there day no good winning 9 days and losing it all on day 10  

 

 

Make no mistake, all the great players you mentioned, are extremely grateful for what Ellis has done. They will be the first to tell you that and they have all said and continue to say it publically. They would not be where they are without him.

Over the years Ellis has provided many systems. Some were imperative to winning, like OTB4L, S40, the vertical design of the scorecard, etc. BUT, none of those systems can beat a shoe as a stand alone system. NONE. The players that are winning have taken all the information, modified it somewhat to work in the shoe at hand. None of the winners on this site are using any of Ellis' systems as they were originally designed, and all are using several systems within the same shoe to win.

Ellis has a good baccarat mind, but there are better minds. People like Oz, and PapaJoe can run circles around Ellis. While Ellis may make 20 units in a shoe, he takes extreme risk by betting 6hi progressions, while PJ and Oz achieve 30 units betting only 2 hi and their worst position is minus 2. Do you appreciate the difference now?

However let's forget all that, you need to be asking yourself, with what he knows and is capable of (in your opinion), why has he not become a "whale" already? Why teach for peanuts when you can be making thousands per day? 

All the respect that Ellis had in the past has vanished because in the last couple of years he has sold several systems that just don't work. He promised to deliver a book 2 years ago and delivered a pamplet instead, and is currently taking money from unsuspecting students who have put their faith in him. 

Moreover, he has banned all the great players from CFC that have figured out where his systems are failing. It's not in his best interest to allow negative comments on his forum so he just bans the players who point out all the flaws. 

I'm sure if he were to step down from his 160 IQ, "humblize"  himself a bit, and accept his own short comings, the players who once respected him would like to befriend him again.

CT

 

 

Edited June 3, 2017 by ECD

[wonka068]

CT70 It does my heart good to read what you said and I agree with everything you said.Take it easy McVince your not talking to wonka now I`ve been around for a long long time pleased to meet you dont you know my name.Yes the Rolling Stones Kevin. 

[ECD]

10 hours ago, wonka068 said:

NO McVince

I am sick off all the negative stuff 

i am not Defending anybody cannot give a flying fffffffff about CFC or BTC wot i am Defending Ellis is still a very good player so give credit where credit is due i done agree with everything people do but a lot of things he does is very good and a lot of his stuff is good even if you only get one thing out off it to help you 

So Please do you thinK if Ellis or any educated play walked up to a table a can read the board they would just Play ANB i BET THEY WOULDNT DO THAT 

Still Ellis thought a lot of Players here how to play OZ, W2F, (Norm God Bless )  Exe 

Then they went and worked how they can make it work for them

SEE Every body thinks OZ and W2F have some magic trick well they do not   hard work and dedication  people think if they showed me well i can do the same but no about 1%  couldn't do it and people say why not maybe cannot handle it  most of the time people just cannot comprehend it 

Example

When they are lossing they go on tilt and start Gambling thats wot the Casinos wait for 

I remember Ellis saying  i dont think any body could do this Norm could walk up to a roulette board and  watch two tables at the same time and play the R/B and B/S Biases at the same time  unbelievable

So Wot i am saying even if you can play S40 play that and master it you can win a million dollars playing that play it when you see it and if you dont see it dont play and stop when you loss one or two and wait for it  if its not your Day go Home Let me say OZ and W2F Go home when its not there day no good winning 9 days and losing it all on day 10  

 

 

Mr. Wonka,

UNLIKE YOU,  with the exception of Oz, I have played with all the great players on this forum including Kevin, Way2Fast and CT.   I have played with all of them when they have won big and when they have lost.  I think it is unfair of you to say what they do when they are losing if you have not played with them.   I have given Ellis his due accolades on this forum and in a phone call I had with him a month ago when I had to correct him on our Vegas trip when 90% of us won.   I also applaud you for trying to give Ellis the benefit of the doubt.  I hope you don't get burned like I, and many players on this site.  If you do you will share the same opinion of the CFC exiled.

Edited June 3, 2017 by ECD
Change

[wonka068]

McVince I think you read Mr wonka`s post wrong he was applauding the fact that they stop, or control the losing aspect of the game,as for Ellis CT70 said it perfectly please read. 

[kachatz1]

Got it figured out!!!

Willy's Chocolate Factory is " the casino" .

           - ( and we all have a 'sweet tooth' )

just saying...all those floor managers/ pit bosses likely used to be dentists...

Plain and simple..."pulling teeth", no matter how you look at it...

 

(And NO, you can't always get what you want)

 

Edited June 3, 2017 by kachatz1

[Keith Smith]

On 6/2/2017 at 0:50 AM, ozscouser1 said:

 

I get PM's and emails from angry members of the other site that have found the systems they purchased don't work...Mostly...I can't help them...I can't teach people what I do...It's not mechanical...it's an extension of Norm's "Follow The Shoe" which is available somewhere on this site...No Negative Progression...but a serious way to learn how to beat the casino without ever making a bet higher than 2 units.  B

1

 

It's only $50.00 bucks here geez could use a few more private member supporting the cause hahaha.  Those Vegas videos aren't cheap.  What do we say at the table Support for the bet hahaha? You can get it all here.

 

Again, any system you want to learn can be found in our Professional Player's Forum. Whether you play Baccarat,  Blackjack or any game in the casinos you will get all the information of how to win. 

Stop wasting your hard earned money paying thousands of dollars to system sellers, the real information is in our Professional Player's Forum.  No one needs to sell systems in this club they know how to win.  Join us, you can win too. 

Again, any system you want to learn can be found in our Professional Player's Forum. Whether you play Baccarat,  Blackjack or any game in the casinos you will get all the information of how to win. 

Stop wasting your hard earned money paying thousands of dollars to system sellers, the real information is in our Professional Player's Forum.  No one needs to sell systems in this club they know how to win.  Join us, you can win too. 

 

[ECD]

16 hours ago, CT70 said:

 

Make no mistake, all the great players you mentioned, are extremely grateful for what Ellis has done. They will be the first to tell you that and they have all said and continue to say it publically. They would not be where they are without him.

Over the years Ellis has provided many systems. Some were imperative to winning, like OTB4L, S40, the vertical design of the scorecard, etc. BUT, none of those systems can beat a shoe as a stand alone system. NONE. The players that are winning have taken all the information, modified it somewhat to work in the shoe at hand. None of the winners on this site are using any of Ellis' systems as they were originally designed, and all are using several systems within the same shoe to win.

 

I'm sure if he were to step down from his 160 IQ, "humblize"  himself a bit, and accept his own short comings, the players who once respected him would like to befriend him again....

CT

 

 

4

You got that right on all counts except for the fact that I don't consider myself a "GREAT" player... and certainly not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Norm and PJ (Players who want to get serious about winning would be advised to research and read every post by both of these "ALL TIME GREATS"

Edited June 3, 2017 by ECD