casno

Oz, you are not lucky, you are just doing everything correctly - over & over again. Just keep on doing the same thing. Please send a copy of 1 scorecard. Casno, gone4ever@cox.net

Exactly that Ellis, it is just a short cut version as you say. I was just offering another interesting way of approaching OTB4L...still only works in shoes that exploits this condition. Multiple net betting can be a little donning at the least for some, so I agree to your idea of staying with the color code for now so as to keep the confusion to a crawl as you work with everyone. NOR is still the way to go, but this is something I had improvised into the NOR at times.

OK finas: Here is my quick shoe play...very simple and to the point. I do no PvB, OvR, or OTvT. Just FTL according to the net bet skim that I have set up here and look what happens! This works well with most shoes, but not all! If you ever lose 10 units, get out and look for another table. I scout tables and play the game in my head to see if the table works with the method before I sit down...that's it in a nutshell. This is very conservative and can be flexible enough to play more progressive or even be played in and out as you play NOR also. Enjoy!

Jim: I see what you are doing...the way I play is basically how you are doing it on the right! I don't actually follow opposites or repeats anymore. I just follow the winner with a 1 unit bet and place a 2 on the other side. You started the shoe as I do, a more conservative style by just betting 1 unit after the last winning side. As the game progresses I bet a 2 unit bet when ever I win the 1 unit bet and sometimes go to a 3 unit bet if I win the 2 unit bet. If I get a 3 in a row win on one side, I stop betting on the losing side until that side comes back. I continue on the winning side with a 1 unit bet, or sometimes a 1 - 2 unit bet if the shoe is getting good run patterns. So in your case above, you would be up 1 unit by the 5th hand, but continue and you will see that most of the time the method will start producing many units, keeping you bets 3 units and below. On a good FTL shoe, I have even gone to a positive 4 unit bet on one side; this after I was up at least 9 units or more. As you get into the shoe playing as you did above, then start to play a 2 unit bet when ever you win the 1 unit bet. As you get the feel of it, I will have to play a sample shoe for you, because when I see two chops, I tend to always go back to conservative play and play 1 unit after the last win to catch a chop pattern, otherwise you can get into some trouble betting against the chop. It takes a few games to really see how well this simple method can work for you...trust me, It was a wonder to behold as I discovered this. I tried to break down what the net bet was doing, but I could not produce the same results without the net-betting way! Play at least 25 hands and see what you can do and I will check your results when I can. If I can find the time, I will set up an example shoe later.

Hello Ellis: You are correct about color coding...I myself started out color coding before I could see what was happening! BTW, my status as Junior Member was kind of strange. It made me a newbie again, LOL!

I played your shoe and the result was +12 units by hand 50, where I normally exit the shoe and a +20 gross units by hand 70 end of shoe. I was never down any units in this shoe and my highest bet was only 3 units one time in a positive progression. All other bets were mostly 1 unit with some 2 unit bets to achieve this winning result. A very good shoe for net betting. The net betting method placed my bets well giving me a very high win percentage.

Audionut: I love Craps, but I am looking for any good conservative method. Do you have something to offer...do you use a method or just go by the gut??

OK, Audionut, you are most likely going to really like this, because you can average 17 net units per shoe. As above, I begin my 1 unit bet following the last win result and go up one or down one unit on the opposing side to net bet...in this case, you bet 2 as your opposing net bet and the net bet tells you where to place your real money bet accordingly. Now, what I do is if I happen to win the 1 unit bet, I go into a positive progression and bet a 2 unit bet on the same side or follow the last. The opposing net bet would then be a 1 unit bet. If the 2 unit bet wins, my option would be to bet a 3 unit bet on the same result and my opposing bet would be a 2 unit bet, but I only do this 3 or more unit progression when the shoe has done well for me and is a running pattern. Otherwise, I am more conservative and just return back to a 1 unit bet after I have a win on the 2 unit bet side. If the 1 unit bet loses I am back to betting a 1 unit bet under the last winning hand result as before. I also tend to drop the progression on one side that has lost 3 times in a row and come back to that side once a win result returns. The opposing side - just continue betting 1 units or do a 1,2 unit bet on the run OTR until it breaks. I call this method of net betting the Wonder Method just to have a way of calling it by name. Anyway, give it a try! When everything is going your way this method does really well...it has for me, I have won many shoes in a row and playing the through each shoe can net 17 units, but be conservative and get out with a nice win by hand 50 and take a break before the next shoe starts. Good Luck! Give me a reply and tell me what you think!

Audionut, Yes I have made money with it, but I do a slightly different net money progression now when I play it. Of course it does not win every shoe, but it is simple and does well when you find a table going your way. You still need other methods in your game plan and apply what will do best for you at the time...no method has ever won with every shoe, but close. I like simple grab and go when I can get it!

Hello All: I played like this many times when Ellis first posted the net betting idea. A much more simpler way to play the O/R net bet, using no color at all, is to just always make a one unit bet under the last winning hand result and continue the progression on the opposite side where the count left off on that side, never proceeding past 3 units. There is no confusion at all on your eyes and no color code needed. I usually just follow the shoe after a 4 in a row pattern shows and continue until I lose 2 times in a row. Thereafter I continue the O/R net bet as before. Try it, it may be easier for you...it was for me. Flipping a pen back and forth from red to blue almost put my eye out at one time!

Hello Keith: I have also been blocked...could you do your magic and unlock that little lock? Casno

Ellis: I understand that if you see a shoe in progress and know what to play with that shoe as you sit down is good and well, but can you necessarily assume that as you sit down for the next shoe coming out to get the same output. As there are two deck setups being played at a table, Red/Blue, etc. Even you stated at one time that sometimes the Blue shoe can be different than the Red shoe...in that what happens in one shoe may not occur in the other! So, if you see a hot table based on the red shoe and you begin playing on the blue shoe...could this not get you playing wrong method based on the red shoe?

Very Good Kkriats: 34 Units with very low bets, no more than 5 units net betting and this was done mechanically with all three systems at one time! But, this is only one shoe! IF you can consistently produce such results for most every shoe played; then this would be one easy way of applying NOR...Don't you think? The way your Score Card is set up makes it kind of difficult to read each method in play, but if you are ok with that then please keep it simple for you. I prefer having 3 columns with P/B and circles on each and then net bet my bets and total. In fact, if you could go back and make your score card this way, it would make it easier for the others to see your Nor process of each method as it unfolds via the rules. Here is what I am doing also with no net bet. I am just placing an X where the hand result should win for each method in each column. Once I see 2 in a row wins or 2 in 3 wins of my Xs, I then begin my bet progression in that column and stay in that column until I have a loss of 2 in a row. I then look at the other columns once again for 2 in a row or 2 in 3 wins as a trigger to begin betting in that column until a loss of 2 in a row. I play this way all through the shoe. Sometimes there will be No Bets, because no wins are occurring in any of the columns and sometimes you will continue on the same column you were on because of a 2 in a row, etc. happens in the same column. By doing this, I have found that I get upwards of 50+% wins to loss ratio. And any good bet progression should win with that number. This makes Nor much more mechanical and easier to play any shoe! Whatever the case, thanks for giving my idea a try and please don't stop now. Continue to explore this direction; it may well be beneficial in the long run to play such a way for others. Don: Please understand that I am not in any way wanting to hold up Ellis on the Nor manual in progress. If any new ideas pop up and serve to be another avenue of interest and positive in their results. Well, it could just be added to the manual at a later date under say, Optional play possibilities, because there are many kinds of people who may well play better in other ways. I am more a visual person myself, as others are more in their head figuring type of players. "You can take 3 books on the same subject, but one of them will read better to you than the others and thus you will understand, learn or process the information in a far better light."

kkriats: I could not download your attachment. Can you just post it for everyone?

Res: You can still keep the event count (O/R) and do the proper modes of each system method. It’s not that hard. If anything, by doing all three at the same time in the beginning, I think that you may actually learn the Nor much faster and see just how the methods are over lapping each other and learn their strengths. For instance, many times there will be two columns that are winning and only one that loses. This shows the overlap ability that Ellis has been preaching to us with Nor. Believe me, keeping track of all three with the rules that Ellis has set is nothing. The challenge comes with how to use the information in making a choice-bet with net-betting in the proper mode. I am working on it as we speak. First we could say to net-bet only on the last two winning methods and not touch the losing one, but keeps our progression going on the losing mode for a later net-bet when that losing column comes into play! By net-betting, you can bet large progressions and bet low amounts. And by seeing all methods in play, you may not need the O/R count anymore or you can use it in a way to make a better bet placement? But, some testing needs to be done. I do not have all the answers right now, as this just an idea I am asking Ellis and others to look into. Keep an open mind for what may be a better way, if anything it helps the beginners learn what is going on in the shoe with all three at the same time.