topstep1

In my opinion Nor and S40 was more than enough to get you started and winning. If you can't win with those then you have some practicing to do. A lot of players don't want to risk a lot but like Oprah said " If there is something out there you want and you never had it , You are going to have to do something you have never done to get it " . And really S40 with the SAP count is enough . Quit looking for the HOLY GRAIL and put some work in and stop going down these NEW RABBIT HOLES that are created. Those of you who keep buying your way into a NEW DOOR , ,,,,,, You already have the answer just study .I have read every system out there and S40/SAP COUNT /NOR is as close as you are going to get to a decent system, I don't have MDB+ ...And once I saw it quite a few of those rules I had already incorporated in my S/40 SYSTEM , and that came from practice ! I might risk any where from 10-12 units per shoe and I very seldom get to -6 , You have to have discipline and be able to sit and wait for the shoe you want to come to YOU . If its not there then don't PLAY . You are right BRAD lets get back to S40/NOR Discussions . Everytime a new door is created everyone rushes to see there is nothing there but the same old thing .... TRUST ME LADIES AND GENTS NOR IS THE FARTHEST YOU HAVE TO GO TO BE A CONSISTENT WINNER, THE REST IS ON YOU .

First of all , make sure the OR count is correct, by the end of the first column I have an OR count of +3 (correct me if I'm wrong), I adjust my play according to the OR count by the end of the shoe I have a OR count of -8 . Now +13 is pretty good for a winning shoe . I play using the SAP and the OR count among a few other things , but keep running shoes at home till it becomes second nature.The more shoes you play the more you will start to understand NOR . Really +13 is good .

I will not start a shoe no matter what ! If nobody is playing yet be patient , they will start. I only wait for the best possible conditions at the table before I place a bet , and if nobody is playing sit back and relax ..... and chat with the dealer till someone comes along and start betting ...

Post a shoe from the Morning and post a shoe from the evening ,I would like to see if I can see a comparison ..

Don't get me wrong ,this is the best site on the web, I'm pretty sure MDB + came about because y'all were whining about the number of units you had to risk instead of doing your homework and figuring it out, so Ellis is catering to the masses as far as risk v. reward . Me ,I'd rather just play s40 combined with some of his systems from 20 yrs ago and I still avg 10 to 15 units a shoe. Everybody wants to dance and dont pay the DJ , I have no problem paying ,but just from the MDB + webinar a couple of weeks ago ,I have a strong feeling I already have MDB SYSTEM triggers and one of the triggers he uses already KNOW ,and I learned that just from practicing and playing everyday, except I don't call them triggers I call them NUANCES which you should have figured out by studying your shoes that you bring home from the CASINO . So Yes if you never played baccarat before you have a lot to learn and this is the website to learn it on, Also one thing you might want to really get into is the THE PSYCH OF THE GAME , BECAUSE WHEN YOU THINK ITS A HARD SHOE JUST STEP BACK AND LOOK AT THE BOARD, ITS NOTHING BUT S40 ALL DAY LONG, sometimes you might want to wait for 3 in a row then start betting or after you have been on the run for 4 or 5 in a row start betting against the run. look at your SAP, it says a lot . I was using 4D and the conclusion I came back to was S40 .....THE BEST ..... Much respect for DR.ELLIS .........PLAY ON

The point I am making now is you rarely see new shoes since MDB + has started.......Make sure you read Nor a couple thousand times to understand what you are reading, cuz Its like WINDOWS SUPPORT around here "Once a new version comes out on a baccarat system ,no more support on the current version of baccarat" . unless you put out more money That way you can go deeper down into the rabbit hole .

You might have missed the train , All of Ellis attention now is on MDB + , Each time he comes up with something new he creates new doors , and you know what that means , to go thru that door you pay more money . you want to see some real shoes join MDB + .

Hamster I'm pretty sure nobody is going to step up and prove to YOU that they make money consistently playing baccarat . Anytime someone like you wants to see proof its obviously you have doubt about your game and you want to see proof of someone else game. Hamster will you please post some shoes so we can evaluate your play and I would strongly suggest that you run a couple of hundred shoes at home and it will all click trust me . PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE .......That is what is going to get you to that next level , sure I ask to see shoes too but perfect what you already have I bet you its a gold mine.

I like Dublinbet.com pretty good site.....But you might want to get a program so you can start at your own pace then speed up , theres a lot of info to digest when practicing and you want to take your time .

I'm in also , I play at Rivers on a regular basis hit me in my inbox any one interested hooking up and talking shop

Post a sample shoe , of what we are seeing cuz I cant tell .

see my last post

Here is the way I practiced and became familiar with everything , I ran shoes and make sure you got the O/R count , then practice enough shoes just running OTB4L win or lose , you just want get use to seeing what it looks like on different shoes , then run about 25 to 50 shoes playing s40M1 , same goes with OTB4L-M2 AND OTB4L M3 .........THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS ONCE YOU RUN ENOUGH PRACTICE SHOES EVERYTHING WILL START TO BECOME CLEAR . and READ YOUR MANUAL OVER AND OVER AGAIN . WHEN YOU PRACTICE YOU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW THINGS BECOME MUCH CLEARER. EVERYTHING IS IN THE PRACTICE SESSIONS !!!!!!!!!!!

Here's a tough shoe and just to get back I broke one major rule, I went on tilt and bet past my limit which is -8 sometimes -10 units , then at play # 25 or 26 I had a A-AHH MOMENT , WHY DIDN'T I JUST PLAY MY OO/TT SYSTEM IN MODE 3 ? The trick is you go on the run with the opposite you are betting so if I'm betting OO then after 3 losses I would go OTR with TT , once I lose the run bet I'm back to betting according to the count ,If its still positive I continue OO , If it negative I go TT. The reason I pick M3 is because with this chopping the way it does I want to give it a chance to get back on track , As you can see once I hit the SWEET SPOT I came up out that hole pretty good. I had a little luck with me that play I'm open for ideas !

One thing I've notice, what ever happen to waiting 10 to 15 hands or more before starting a shoe to see what kind of patterns develop ? Did professor Ellis tell everyone to throw that rule out the window , I'm noticing a lot of players are starting right at the start of the shoe , I found that when I started at the beginning of the shoe I was in the hole by the time the SWEET SPOT CAME. Wait till the shoe develops a pattern you recognize , there is no need to be in a rush , I did the same thing and when I did that I was always digging my-self out of the hole on the sweet spot and breaking even or getting just a couple of units ahead by the end of the shoe , also if you lose 2 or 3 bets in a row , BET ZERO till your zero bets start winning then go back to real money . Also I notice you got up to +15 right towards the end of the shoe and gave it back , WHY? YOU'RE AT THE END OF THE SHOE My thing is , It took 50 maybe 60 something plays to get to +15, lock up +10 to +12 , you've milked all you can out of that shoe BELIEVE ME. Don't risk 15 units at the end of the shoe for another what maybe 3 or 4 units , its not worth it.

Here's Another shoe except I was betting TT instead of OO Notice the count went negative so I played TT this was a good one

Here's another shoe where as I bet OO/TT according to the count, as long as the count stays between +3 / -3 you can bet progressions all day long and hit you goal of +5 to +10 units , If the count goes beyond +3 then you bet OO , If the count goes beyond -3 then you bet TT , these numbers aren't etched in stone so you have to watch your count and pay attention to what the shoe is doing . ADD +1 FOR OO , SUBTRACT -1 FOR TT . YOU CAN DO IT ON O/T ALSO BUT IT SWINGS A LOT MORE THAN OO/TT . NOTICE I SAID THE COUNT AND NOT THE DISPARITY . I just like the count better for some reason and notice a lot of times I will go to the 4th or 5th progression without hesitation because it chops like that. If I'm dangling on the negative side of the score I will flat bet till I get back in the positive or I'm trying to lock up some profit. I have more shoes if needed .

This is what I should've did from the get ..... You guys need to read read read and run about 50 shoes in practice , you will get it then ! “Good luck is a residue of preparation.” http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8007

You ask us How do you beat this kind of shoe ? And I'm tell you , You have to adjust to the shoe , the shoe doesn't adjust to you ! Every shoe has a SWEET SPOT , and you have to be patience and discipline enough to wait for it to happen , the reason I say bet zeros' is because its better you losing nothing than being down 10 units when the SWEET SPOT COMES , It has nothing to do with you having bad luck , Its you adjusting to the game. When I start off playing I wait at least 10hands or so, that gives you time to decide what to use as the shoe starts to build some history then you go in as to what to use OTB4L , TB4L , or s40 depending on the O/R COUNT , this is not all MECHANICAL you have to use some DISCRETION . FLOW WITH THE SHOE THE SHOE DOESN'T FLOW WITH YOU Treat this ,what you are learning as an APPROACH !

First of all keep practicing , What happened to betting zero( virtual bet) when you lose 2 in a row or 3 in a row and bet zero till you win 1 or 2 out of 3 to get back in the game, then continue to bet. post the shoe lets see what it looks like ? Are you starting off with OTB4L ?

I had a session the other night and I lost 10 units and all the way home I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong , First let me start off by saying the session didn't start off good because I got into a spat with a fellow player , Rule#1 Don't talk or lolly gag before the shoe starts, You have to be 101% in the shoe before the first hand is dealt , anyway he makes a comment and the conversation went well into the 3rd or 4th hand it totally took me off my game (and I knew better) . Every time I get back from the casino one thing I always do is go over the shoe or shoes I played, that's where you get all your confirmation as to what you did right and what you did wrong especially when you have a losing session , it might hurt but it has to be done , that's when you learn the most , going over losing shoes and practicing when you don't feel like it . If I have 2 losing sessions in a row (something's wrong) and I have to address it immediately before I go back into the casino or It will continue . And I must say the losing sessions a lot of times is from going on TILT , BEING STUBBORN AND TRYING TO MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN ( THE PRICE CAN BE COSTLY) BUT ANYWAY I was going over my card the other night and the count got so far off that it cost me 10 units , and I broke a couple of playing rules that were etched in stone. And I preach on this all the time. The Moral to the story is "Keep your mouth shut ,Watch the count and concentrate"

Has anyone done any studies on OOO/TTT ? and is it worth pursuing , that's OO/TT +2 for those who don't understand what I'm talking about.

Why use OO/TT ? What pattern is it catching that the other patterns are not catching ? I see what OTB4L is catching and tracking it as far as disparity is concerned.. Anyone ?

Elliot I know who you are talking about , He got hit (lost) in that progression for $24,000 a while ago , and I was trying to get him to understand If he changed the way he bet he would last a little longer than what he did, I play at Rivers all the time and the last time I was there I had just got there and there was a shoe that had just finished up , it was 55 bankers about 18 players and the rest ties , need I say every player at the table had stacks of black and purple ($500) chips there were a few who had stacks of bright orange. They cleaned house

Did you say 2-8 shoes a day ? 3 shoes top , I cant play no more than 3 shoes in a day .. I'm in Chicago , the dealers deal like moving molasses ...SLOW ! BTW ,,WHERE CAN U PLAY 8 SHOES IN A DAY ? I've yet seen that done . Dealer must be fast