[Starting Again]

Just two simple questions.

1.Are you playing for real money now.

2.what size units do you play with.

Regards Lou.

I haven't been playing. I got busy again.

But when I do play, I bet between $500 and $1k. I shoot to make a few units per shoe and then I have fun with the profits (when I win). I go out to eat, take the wife out to dinner, buy my wife stuff. etc.. It's all fun and games for me. Baccarat is and never will be an income stream for me.

[Starting Again]

This is without a doubt, the best post I have ever seen in this forum.

Very, very, well said!

Hamster

Thanks Hamster

The odds aren't against you in small business?

Start up costs

Long hrs unpaid

Marketing that you invest in which you never really know whether you will get it back?

Possible competition that cant start up under your nose and undercut you?

Changing market - new trends or curves that makes your business not viable anymore?

Paypal complaints and scams?

Credit card fraud?

Theft and break ins and insurance claims

Big companies ripping you off because they know they can and you cant put up the $$ for a legal challenge to stop them.

Staff which don't put In a hard days work and screw things up and you still have to pay them at the end of the week?

Account customers not paying and stringing out their accounts for 90 + days leaving your cashflow depleted?

All of the above are excuses and most of which are completely controllable/avoidable situations. In gambling the edge is always against you. You aren't talking about a negative house edge, just some of the downsides/risks of owning a business.

Most small businesses fail in the first 5 years - so I wouldn't say the odds are in your favour and its so easy to make big $$

This doesn't mean that there is an edge against you.

I don't see its any different and that's my opinion from running my own business for the last 5 years and in that time I've seen some of the most corrupt cheats and lowlifes in this world. Guys that will look you in the eye and tell you they are honest and you can trust them all the while they are trying to scam you and rip you off. Multinationals and big corporations that pray on you and screw you because they can.

Sounds like you may have been in the wrong type of business. Sorry to hear that you had such a hard time. Yes, it's not always so rosey..but I would much rather invest time into building something that I can control vs betting into something that I will never control.

Gambling can be gambling or it can be a business too it depends how you approach it - if you think you have an edge or you can come out ahead then and you invest the time and $$ to learn then why is it any different?

You cannot get a positive edge in gambling unless you are using an advantage play..in Baccarat that would probably be edge sorting.

Gald to hear that you have found success with baccarat. Good luck through the future.

[Starting Again]

Successful business people do their diligence and then make decisive decisions and take action. They don't wallow around in the tide pool.

Sounds like BS to me. You say you run a business. What successful business person doesn't understand the value of an investment? You are completely missing out on the ONLY RELIABLE information which will make you a winner. Just join already.

Baccarat and business are two completely different things. My advice is to be very careful when comparing the two.

Baccarat has a negative expectation. The odds are always against you. It doesn't matter how much you pay for a system or what system you use.

In business - The odds are not against you. You are not competing against the house. It's a lot easier to start a business that generates 10's of thousands of dollars per month than it is to beat the casino LONG TERM.

In Baccarat - No investment is a wise investment. It's all based on fallacy and we are always making investments into the negative expectations, hoping that we can survive the short term long enough to get out. No investment in baccarat is truly practical. That's why I play for fun. Although I do see value in making smarter decisions about how to play the game. That's the value that BTC offers.

In Business - Investments can be both calculated and practical. How do you make a calculated investment in a game when the house edge is against you?

Baccarat is the complete opposite of a business. So you are really going down a slippery slope when you compare the two. Look around the casinos..who do you see gambling?

- Old people who are gambling their social security.

- Young kids on the weekend

- People who are addicted and can't stop.

- Desperate people who try to make $100 per day just so they can get by

- And of course, the rare pro player who figured something out. How often do you see these people? Not often.

Why? Because the house has the edge in ALMOST all cases.

Look at one of the greatest business men of Vegas. Steve Wynn.

I'm sure that he could learn all of the insider secrets if he really wanted to.

But he doesn't gamble. Not even for fun.

Why? Because business and baccarat are two completely different things.

Anybody who says otherwise is fooling themselves because they are attracted to the idea of making a quick buck.

[BetPhoenix 2 decks?]

Normally one deck is played out while the other is either hand shuffled by a different dealer or is machine shuffled. The decks are swapped over at the completion of the shoe in play.

Yes, exactly.

That's why I started this thread. I have never seen a casino put the second deck on the table while the first deck is in play. I haven't played on Bet Phoenix in a long time and I didn't remember seeing that before. I'm pretty sure that BP always used the same deck in the past. If my memory serves me right, then they would play through the deck and then reshuffle that same deck. So I got very confused when I suddenly logged in and saw two decks.

My guess is that they are trying to play more shoes to increase their profits.

[BetPhoenix 2 decks?]

You got caught out scamming...lying...bullshitting etc...and now you spit the dummy and carry on like a petulant schoolgirl.

So many assumptions based on the way that you WANT to see things..not based not the actual facts. You have taken very little time to understand why I'm here. I bet that you think that the past decisions in the shoe influence the future decisions. Please tell me that you believe that...

I could give you all the reasons under the sun as to how we know you are the same guy asking for a free guide to MDB on the other Forum...but frankly...I can't be arsed.

To be clear, you can't give any reasons. If you could give reasons then you would have done so. The only real thing that would link my account to the account on the bac lab site is an IP address..something that you can never obtain from that site. So to put this nicely..you are talking out of your ass.

Thanks for making me aware of the thread in the baccarat labs site. It looks like some members are coming out to rip BTC apart. Like I said before, you are only doing more harm than good. First you completely talk me out of joining this community because you all can't be patient and now because of you..there are negative comments about BTC being indexed by Google in an open forum. More memberships being lost because of a few sensitive people who couldn't keep their mouths shut. Now ask yourself this...are you doing more harm to BTC at this point?

I think so.

So let's leave this as our last post because last time I checked you aren't the person who needs to be compensated for the time spent training people. You aren't the person who gets compensated for the costs to running this forum. You can say anything that you won't about me, but I"m just some guy. These negative threads will only hurt BTC in the long run.

[BetPhoenix 2 decks?]

Telling Ellis how to maket? No I was telling him that this forum is confusing and it's hard as hell to figure out how to buy a system. Oh sorry for trying to provide some feedback about how to make it easier to sell memberships!!

[BetPhoenix 2 decks?]

What??! That isn't me.

Wow. You people reay are ignorant.

You go and accuse me of posting under a different username with no real proof. Then other members tell me to apologize with no real proof that it was me. I have never been on that forum nor do I know anything about it. But yea I will check it out. Maybe they are nicer over there.

It's ashame really. I came here with great intentions. All I was looking for was some direction. Now I have no intention of joining this forum. You have all competley talked me out of it

That is fine though. I don't need to spend my time learning BTC systems. I can figure it out myself. Talk about being spoon feed. You all paid money to bed feed the answers so you don't have to figure it out yourself. Then you act high and mighty like you actually did anything. Kind of ironic really.

but hey..what can you expect. Gambling forums are lgoing to attract degenrates who think that they are making wise "investments"

[BetPhoenix 2 decks?]

Actually I was just trying to figure out what bet Phoenix is doing because 2 years ago they didn't show two different shoes on the same table.

Great group of assholes here ...

[BetPhoenix 2 decks?]

What is going on with bet phoenix? I'm looking at the live feed now and they are using 2 decks. A blue and a red. They are still playing an 8 deck shoe? I'm a little confused. Or are the decks completely different shoes?

[Starting Again]

Ellis

BTW guys, over on the right in the boot camp discussion, when they say "MDB" they actually mean MDB+ or the 5 of a kind system. Steve just told me a couple days ago that whenever he says MDB he actually means MDB+. THAT is the system that currently has the 96% shoe win rate in Las Vegas and averages 6 or more. THAT is the best performance by far of any system in the entire history of gambling. THAT is the purely mechanical system everybody who ever plays Vegas needs to learn right now. It is so mechanical and so simple you can learn the whole thing in ONE webinar.

Please realize that this is all very confusing. You are promoting multiple systems here. MDB, MDB+, NOR, and then someone was talking about 4D. It looks like there is a different price tag for each system. As a potential buyer I starting to feel overwhelmed about what system to buy. Luckily for you I bought v1.0 of NOR back in the day, so I sort of get what it's about..but put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't even know what NOR is. You guys are using all of these fancy titles and throwing multiple options at the buyer. I wouldn't be surprised if you are disqualifying a good number of leads because you are making it harder for someone to make a decision.

But I get that. You are not a marketing guy. I remember you saying that back in the spring of 2011 in a thread.

And I'm not here to criticize the way that you are marketing the systems and I apologize for any rude comments that I have made.

So please just give some direction.

I'm a member with experience. I can play SAP in my sleep. I know the foundation of the first version of NOR. I actually am playing that now. I love OTB4L and System40. I never have had any success with RD1 or any of the follow (F) systems. I like to play an U1D2prog capped at 3 units.

So what system should I buy? Do I start at NOR? Or Do I go straight for the million dollar baccarat system?

Now please give someone who is completely new to the game direction. Where do they start? Do you just throw them into NOR? Did you guys ever find a way to consolidate all of the information on the private forum to help with information overload?

See..the whole reason for the existence of this thread is because it's very hard to figure out where to go. It's hard to figure out what to buy and the differences between each system.

Maybe you need one of your employees to create a big button that literally says, "Interested becoming a BTC member? START HERE" - The person can click the button and be directed to a page that explains exactly what they should do/buy in the simplest form possible. I see that you have the click here link at the top but there are still too many options and it's all very confusing.

Just my 2 cents.

Sometimes you just get a casino's number - detect their vulnerability. This happened to me at Gold Strike, Tunica. I strictly played new cards there - the first 2 or 3 shoes after the card prep. They were all either S40 or OTB4L. I won nearly every shoe for 3 years. I was betting U1D2 and hit 20 or 21 nearly every shoe - switching to new tables as they opened and doing the exact same thing at Horseshoe next store. So I had plenty of tables to choose from.

So here's a question for you.

It seems like the systems are designed to take advantage of vulnerabilities in the casino...more specifically the shuffle. Do different casinos ever have a default shuffle ..or something like a shuffle signature? So for example, would it be worth going to to my local casino and tracking shoes for a few days to see if there is any preference towards System40, Repeats, or whatever?

[Starting Again]

B

accarat guy, not for nothing....but let me get this straight. You come on to this forum not as a member, but just to tell everyone your going to be a member, but not right now? So, what's the point of you telling us this?

No I came to the forum looking for some direction about where to go and what to do when I'm ready to buy into the private forum. Like I said in a previous post, things have changed a lot since I stopped paying my monthly fee to be a BTC member. Everything from the pricing models to the main systems. I don't know if I should learn NOR or the MDB system. I was looking for some direction other than, "Join now" Or "Subscribe to the upcoming NOR webinar"..or.. "You won't ever win unless you join" ..I'm short on time..I couldn't even make that webinar if I tried.

Then some paid member...read paid his dues...read helped Ellis formulate a plan of attack, offers to help with any questions you may have and even gives you the opportunity to call him...

.

I didn't read it as that. I thought that his post was ignorant to my current situation. He assumed that I know nothing about the game and that I'm not capable of winning on my own. I'm not coming here looking to make a quick buck with this game. It's not possible. I can pick trends all day somewhat successfully and win if I get out of the casino...I'm coming here because I like the perspective of BTC and I hate trending. I need to systemize my play a little more.

Then you pass judgement about his mental capacity and use of song lyrics to get you or perhaps others to think about things instead of spoon feeding it to you...yes to use your mind and think........and you cast stones at others. How is that ?

To be honest..I didn't really understand what he was saying. Maybe he is smarter than me, who knows. But I using song lyrics?? Idk that's just childish. Saying that I won't fork up the money because I'm trying to be spoon feed? That's just ignorant. Maybe I don't want to shell out the money because I have employees to pay, meetings to attend, and other work to do.

Yes on the paid side members do share knowledge and discussions with one another...... Truth be told, it was through the paid side and the members here that have helped me ....so perhaps you are right, we are missing the reason for this thread...by all means please enlighten us with something other than your expert opinion on the marketing side of BTC and how you view posting to be doing an injustice, ....yes please let us ALL know the purpose for you telling us you are starting again.....

I should have put more thought into how I started the thread. It came off the wrong way. I completely get that.

But here's the deal. I understand this community..or what it used to be. I know that for every player who is winning a shoe consistently and having good days there are people who have joined who couldn't pull it over. Maybe they didn't understand the systems, maybe they went into information overload when they joined, maybe they didn't have the patience and discipline..but for whatever the reason, there are BTC members in both the past and present who can't win. I get that and that won't stop me from joining.

Over the years I have seen BTC go from Twister, to some net betting system, to SAP, then NU SAP?? Then the Maverick craze before he flipped out, then ADOT, then NOR, Then NOR something or other, Then MDB, and now I"m seeing MDBT++?? Oh and 4D? I'm sure that everyone can come up with some great reasons for the different systems..but I don't really care about that. I was just a little confused about what what BTC members are using at the table.

Look..I am not a beginner. I have studied this game intensely in the past. I have played thousands of shoes live and probably millions of hands on paper. I don't need BTC to win...but I do believe that I can improve my play and increase my win rate. I only stopped playing because I became busy and got burned out with baccarat.

So in summary..I was just looking for some more information about where to go, what to do. I guess that I was hoping a few members would come forward and praise this forum and all that the crew here has to offer. I was an extremely qualified lead...but the responses sort of pushed me out of the funnel and I'm having second guesses about joining.

[Starting Again]

Hi way2fast,

Well said. It does go both ways. I completely understand your points and agree. I feel like the free forum was a little more open to conversation and discussion bout baccarat in the past, or maybe that is just my imagination playing tricks on me. Although, to be fair I can see why paid members are quick to assume that I have bad intentions. I know that there are people who are always looking to take BTC down in one way or another.

I believe that all of the BTC systems are very good, that's why I'm not in a rush to join. I have killed showed in the past with just System40 and good table selection. I refreshed myself with some of the free BTC videos on YouTube and now I'm feeling much better about my play. So it's important for people to realize that I'm not in a rush to buy into the forum because I'm not desperate to find the holy grail. I know that success in this game is 1 part system and 1 part me. I don't believe that I need the million dollar baccarat system but I will still join in the future, mainly out of genuine interest in the game and this community.

[Starting Again]

It seems like some of you are a little slow or can't read. There are so many misunderstandings here, mainly because Some of the commenters obviously haven't read this full thread.

brad- I know. I was here when BTC offered a free public system to help people win enough to buy their way into the private forum. I forget the name of that system however. I was here when the price per month was a monthly fee. I was here during a period of time when peolple were being torn between a few different methods.. between AD, System 40, Maverick, then eventually the creation of What you know today as NOR.

And I'm back. I'm back because I believe in BTC.

This thread isn't about me looking for a handout. Nor is it about me looking to a cheap way in. Like I have said, I plan to pay my dues again and buy a new membership when the time is right. Things have changed since I was last here. BTC changed their pricing models, the systems, and it looks like a lot of people have joined. I figured out my username and it is still not with digging up because so much has changed and that user isn't a private member anyway because that was during the time of the monthly model. I want a fresh start with a new name.

I think this thread has severed its course..for whatever that even was. To be honest, some of you people in this thread aren't doing BTC any justice for marketing. The marketing here is bad enough. If you are going to post cryptic messages with song lyrics and make assumptions without reading then you are likely to scare away future members. But hey, that's what happens when you build a bigger userbase online. You are likely to attract some unstable minds.

[Starting Again]

You are all completely confusing me.

There seems to be some misunderstandings. I wasn't asking for a handout.

I planned to join the forum at some point. I'm not ready. I have enough experience in this game and with the btc systems as I remember to make the money from the casino to pay my dues. My dues will be paid when the time is right.

Although I'm beginning to second guess myself about joining based on the very confusing responses in this thread.

[Starting Again]

You both make a nice living, but you both refuse/ don't wanna' call Mr.Davis and pony-up a few measly bucks could get you some nice $$ on the side....

That's not my situation at all. I actually have paid for access to the forum in the past. Maybe even before you were here? Were you here in 2011? I can't really remember.

I'm simply just following my rules. Any gambling money that I put into gambling must come from gambling. Sounds weird but I need to keep myself disciplined.

[Starting Again]

I just booked a room at the Tropicana in Atlantic City. It wasn't my first choice, but that's where my wife wants to go. It always looks nice around Christmas at least. My wife doesn't pay the game so I'll have to wake up very early to play before we checkout.

I'm going to take about 12 units with me..but I'm going to use a tight stop loss of 6 units. I'm looking to get my feet wet again.

I'm going to play NOR as I remember it and use SAP, O/R, OT counts, and some added stastistics tracking to help me play the game. I'll use a U1D2 progression capped at 3units.

This should be fun. I'm just hoping that I can find a good baccarat game going at 6am. For some strange reason I have never lost in the early morning, even when I sat down to pick off trends by myself. But I have never play at the Tropicana so I'm not sure what to expect. I might have to go over to another casino.

Anyone ever play at the Tropicana? Should I go somewhere else in the morning?

[Starting Again]

Hamster,

Sorry, I wasn't sure. It's hard to tell sometimes on forums. Now I can laugh about your post haha

That story about your friend is awesome. It's great to see that he stuck with it. I make most of my money online in apps.

LOL She makes 130k plus stock options, but hates her job and stress....

Working for someone else and hating my job is my worst nightmare. Been there, done that. Never again.

[Starting Again]

f you learn enough, you will be able to shut down your business and play Baccarat full time and travel the world while doing so.

All the tools are here... Do you want it bad enough?

I appreciate your advice but that is some of the worst advice that I have ever read. I'm setting my businesses up to the point where they are passive. Why would I shut down my businesses that will be producing millions per year within the next few years? Most of the risk in my business is removed by this point. I will become a millionaire through passive income streams. Not baccarat.

I'm not playing baccarat to make 1 million dollars. I'm playing baccarat because I enjoy the game. I love gambling a few times per month. Some of us have different goals. Baccarat is more of a hobby to me. I want to keep it fun.

But at the same time, I also love winning. That's why I'm back here.

You may want to look at joining a NOR bootcamp session to refresh and learn whats changed since you left.

I can't just yet. Any money that I invest in the game will be invested with casino money. That's just a rule that I'm making myself follow.

[Starting Again]

So I'm a little lost about how to get started again and I would appreciate some direction.

I took a 2 year break from baccarat and I'm finally getting the itch to start playing again. I got caught up with my work and I didn't have any time to play the game. I went to my local casino the other day and I suffered an 8 unit loss. I still remember how to play the game, but I didn't go into the shoe with a good plan and the confidence that I used to have. I realized that I had to walk away from the casino, regroup, and come back when I have a better plan for how I"m going to play the game. For the most part I was trying to pick off some trend bets.

I was a member of BTC through late 2010 and late 2011. I can't remember my username, password, and the email address that was associated with the account, so I created a new one. I have played System40, That strange Maverick system, SAP (my favorite), the first version of NOR, and a few others. I understand all of the BTC lingo, the MM, and some of the concepts behind the older systems, so I can easily jump back into it. But it seems like there have been some significant changes over the years.

I'm not looking to make a living from the game. I'm currently making about 20k per month with my online businesses, so I'm completely focused on scaling my businesses. But I would like to get myself back to the point where I can play and win when I play. That's why I'm back.

So what should I do?

The obvious option is to jump back into the paid section and shell out the 1,000+ for the million dollar system. But my strict guideline is that I will only allow myself to invest money into the game of baccarat and the paid section of the forum with money that I win in baccarat. So joining the paid section isn't an option just yet.

So here's what I'm thinking:

I really enjoyed playing the SAP system. I also have good understanding of the first version of NOR at the last. I'm planning to attack the casinos with a sort of SAP/NOR hybrid. I'll use the frequency of event counts to guide which NOR system I"ll play. Does this sound like a good plan getting back into the game? Or should I just play SAP as I know it?

I'm also unsure of what staking plan to use. I was thinking flat bet in areas where the basis isn't strong and then go into U1D2 when playing a NOR mode???

Thoughts?