Ntrl9

William- What specific questions are you looking for? I'm not a big NOR player but I do play S40 (exploit for small wins). I have played NOR in the past but currently play MDB mostly. Do you have the NOR manual? ntrl9

Guys- I play online almost every day for low stakes ($25 unit). I actually play at the casino in the screenshot (5dimes). They hand shuffle the cards and place them in the shuffle master shoe that reads the cards which is integrated with the tote board the same as the B&M casino. The green button is used to reset the shoe and clear the tote board. If you notice they do not place the plastic cover over the shoe so you can see the top of the cards as they sit inside the shoe. The rebate casino which is a different live feed uses a clear shoe but they have to scan each card into the system so that it shows up on the screen. I don't think that these casinos are using the trickery with auto shuffling shoes. That being said I do not trust them and will never play for high stakes. I play for low stakes in order to fly under the radar. My main play is at the casino I play online while I'm home to pass time (and make a little money). I agree with W2F and I would never exclusively play online. Good luck to all....

Hey Trillion- You have been involved with this site a lot longer than I have but you can't say the site has lost steam since Ellis is gone. Yeah there may not be as much activity (by way of posts) but if you have someone (Ellis) talking in circle or continually saying the same stuff is that really helping anyone. I can tell you from the looks of it people on the other forum are not jumping for joy. I hear a lot of bitching about the "Manual" (that still doesn't exist). I would rather not have a new "system" every other month that is just a new spin on an old system to me that just muddies (not sure if that's a word) the waters . That does nothing for us, if anything it just confuses people even more then they were to begin with. I have been active on this site for only a year and I can tell you that I have been winning consistently for the last several months. Mind you I work at it almost all my free time. I analyze every aspect of my play to see what I am doing wrong and how I can improve. I don't want to sound rude and I certainly don't want to offend anyone but you get out what you put in. There is not a system out there that will make you a winner just by following a few triggers. Good luck all....

Dazza- Typically you stay on the run to the end. I would look at the runs to see where they are breaking and use that as your indicator. Use the MC 2+ event to tell you where to jump off the run. I happen to love S40- what I don't love is guessing the modes. It's nice when the shoe has all 1's and 2's and you kill it with S40 mode 2 but that doesn't happen very often. If I see a show high in 1's and low in 2's I will play S40 mode 1 and look where most of the runs are breaking and jump off the run at that point and wait for it to break and resume betting S40 mode 1. Now just keep in mind TBL (time before last) and S40 mode 1 are one in the same. So call it S40M1 or TBL your betting the same thing. The problem with betting this way is if the shoe is high in 1's and 3's you will lose when it goes 2 then win when it goes 3 but then give it right back when it breaks after the 3. That's why you need to pay attention to the show and see where the runs are breaking and pause the betting at the most common event and wait for it to break before resuming. This is the way I would play it but I play conservatively. I hope this helps.

So Kevin how would you NetBet normal frequency of occurrence events. It sounds interesting but I woildnt know where to begin. I would love a companion system to play with MDB. I've been averaging 2 units per shoe with my conservative play. The hardest part is staying focused on the shoe while waiting for triggers. I haven't had much time to allocate to playing live shoes at the casino lately. I have only been able to play 1 one shoe per visit. I I look forward to hearing more about your idea. ntrl9

No problems at all. I make withdrawals every other week. I stagger the withdrawals so one week I'm cashing out 5dimes and the next week its betonline. I do this so I never have that much money in my account just in case they shut down...

Hey Junketman- I have accounts at both 5dimes and betonline. 5dimes pretty recently added a second live feed which is the same as betonline. Now I have accounts at both sites because I keep both feeds up simultaneously so I can keep an eye on the potential triggers without constantly switching tables. 5dimes has two different tables being dealt at the same time on their regular feed which they call Vegas Live Dealer (the other is rebate live dealer). I play online almost everyday seven days a week and I have been having success playing online MDB for over 6 months now. I don't play high stakes online due to the US gaming laws and I don't want to give the casino an excuse to not pay me. So basically I am trying to fly under the radar by not playing high stakes. I usually play to +2 per shoe for a daily win of +10. I hope this helps....

Brad- You are exactly right. If I don't like the feeling of a trigger I don't take it PERIOD... The one advantage we have over the casino is that we don't have to bet if we don't want to. As I have said many times- I would rather miss a trigger by waiting than lose a progression. As your unit size increases this becomes more important... Ntrl9

Least Common Net Betting is what it stands for. I know Ellis put it up on his site some time ago.

MDB can and will lose a progression to a heavily biased shoe. There are ways to navigate around loses by delaying certain triggers. That being said a heavy bias can win a progression it all depends on how the cards fall.

Apagonis- I think MDB+ would be the way to play this type of shoe. MDB+ does well with a short term bias. The short term bias is indicative of a shoe that is constantly changing. I am seeing these types of shoes as most all players are. These days it is rare to see a shoe that has a consistent bias from start to finish. Ntrl9

Frank, Go to the private MDB forum and read. Keith posted a few videos recently with detailed explanation of each trigger. After reading and watching the screencast video if you still have questions ask them there. Ntrl9

Brad- I have to disagree with you on this one. IMO learning MDB+ is essential to being a well rounded player. Depending on what type of shoes you see NOR may not be the best way to play in your casino. I may be a bit biased (pun intended) because I am playing MDB+ almost exclusively these days. In all the casinos that I've been in recently there is NO consistent bias. In fact I have been seeing shoes that may develop a bias in the short term but not last very long. I play short term S40 or Otbl for 2 or 3 units when I see the opportunity but never for longer than about 10 plays. If a player is new to baccarat it is hard to play NOR because they usually pick the wrong system or the get caught constantly changing systems and lose their shirt. Xdotnet if you are going to play NOR be aware of what is going on in the shoe. If you see the bias begin to change wait to see what is going on with the shoe. Good luck- NTRL9

I like this shoe for MDB 5 triggers all easy winners.

Clark- I play MDB+ online just about every day. I use betonline.ag and 5dimes but with 5dimes they are definitely more biased shoes. I have posted and PM others exactly this in the past. I played a S40 shoe to +22 last night at 5dimes. At 5dimes I still use MDB+ but more as an indicator of when not to bet. Betonline produces mostly random shoes and I do very well with MDB+ and short term NOR (10 plays or less). Ntrl9

Clark- Welcome to the forum it's an amazing place to learn everything baccarat. Kachatz1 is the man for 4D. He has adapted it to include some MDB+ bets and calls it 5D. Right now I play MDB+ almost exclusively and I can tell you that upgrading to MDB is the way to go. If you know NOR and MDB you will be prepared for anything the casino throws at you. Most of the new post are on the MDB forum including some discussion about 5D if I'm not mistaken. Good luck in your Baccarat play. Ntrl9

I play Betonline.ag mostly but 5dimes.eu is ok.....

I'm looking forward to this one especially that it is in my backyard.... This should also make it easier for the east coast players that find it hard to travel all the way to Vegas to attend. South Florida is a beautiful place and mid October the weather starts to get better while most of the country turns colder.. I hope to see you all then. You can't find a much better place to get away for the weekend (especially those in the North East and Mid West) Damian

Hey Brad- It's easy to say how you would play a shoe in hindsight.. I can tell you that when I play MDB+ online (hand-shuffle biased cards) I play to win 2 or 3 units in a shoe. However, If I see from the very beginning of the shoe a strong bias I will most definitely sit out until I see a trigger win before diving in. But typically I won't take certain triggers in certain situations. For example P2211111111311122311111222 at this point I would not take a 3- 2's for the next 2 going 3. In fact, I would play S40 and not look to force MDB on this shoe period. I think the biggest mistake you can make is forcing a system on to a particular shoe. You need to flex with the shoe, if you are going to be so inflexible then you are going to have a tough time. That being said I gravitate towards S40 shoes, I will seek out nice choppy shoes and play S40 always it's just my preference.... I know other people I play with see runs and love playing that shoe type betting straight repeats. What I won't do is impose S40 on a perfect TBL or OTBL shoe. It's been said a ton of times and it's really common sense but you need to play the shoe in front of you, recognize the shoe type and play the bias until it changes and then leave or wait until you can identify what is going on. I think its easy to say but with experience you start to be able to sense when a shoe is changing (not all the time and definitely not if your distracted/not 100% focused). That element of play is something that can't be taught it comes with experience and unfortunately losing. Lastly, you can learn all the systems out there and play them in your sleep, but if you can not recognize what system fits the shoe best and when a shoe is changing you will still get into trouble. I hope this helps.... NTRL9

Duplicate post

Hey John- I have stayed away from playing MDB at my local casino because I thought Vegas was my only option. However, my trip to Vegas a couple of months ago proved to me that even Vegas has heavily biased shoes. To be honest I was shocked by the shoes I saw in Vegas. I compared the shoes I played/recorded in Vegas with the Hard Rock here locally (Hollywood, Florida) and they were not too different. I think as long as your mindful of the possibility of playing a heavily biased shoe and you don't get caught with your pants down MDB will work for any type of cards you face. In the last week I have found myself changing the triggers to suit the shoes in front of me. Not always, my base is still the W2F triggers, but I keep an eye on what is going on in the shoe and if I'm not sure I will pass on a trigger to see what happens. Some times I kick myself and other times I'm happy I sat out. I would much rather miss the opportunity to win a bet then lose a progression. BTW- I have had losing shoes but not losing days.... Good luck- Damian/Ntrl9

Hey Guys- I have been waiting to post this until I was certain and it was thoroughly tested. I know there is some misconception about playing MDB+. MDB+ was originally designed for factory pre-shuffled RANDOM cards not for shuffle master or hand shuffled "BIASED" cards.. As we all know Way2fast has done well with MDB+ but with the delayed triggers that he uses MDB+ works in most situations. I have been playing MDB+ online for the past 7 weeks and I have not had a losing day yet (mind you I play online everyday). I play two different sites at the same time. I'm not going to post them here but if you can't figure it out by the shoes I post below PM me and I will provide them to you.. I only play each shoe to +2 or +3 because the sites I play use 6 deck shoes. I have lost a progression here and there but nothing too alarming. FYI- You need to be aware of what is happening in the shoe you are playing- if you see a heavy bias DO NOT play. From time to time you will come across a shoe that let's say is 30 hands in and there are no 2's. In this situation you would not make a bet calling for a 2 to stay 2. Just common sense, don't blindly make bets (mechanically) just because it's a MDB+ trigger, look at what the shoe is telling you. I think Way2fast mentioned in one of his recent posts that he will delay the start of a trigger even further depending on what is going on in the shoe. I think it's a good opportunity for those that don't have a casino near them or if their local casino is very unfriendly towards MDB+. Good luck to all- Ntrl9

I concur- Well said W2F....

Hey Mark- The best tip I can give you is to join the forum. Ntrl9

Brad- I was just as surprised... I went out to Vegas expecting something a lot different. These are the type of shoes that I get with regular cards at my home casino...There was definitely a clear bias in most of the shoes. Ntrl9