ClarkD4

Wsemitra - contact Kevin (kachatz1) and he will explain. 5D is working !!!

In my short experience, predicting Ties is purely a subjective idea. Meaning, people think for themselves they found some 'criteria' and stick to them, hoping they would prove successful (well, the same is also true, more or less, for all baccarat systems predicting Player or Banker - but for Ties, they seem to be a lot more subjective). For example, one my 'criteria' for predicting Ties was, same as Brad, no ties for 15-20 plays. I encountered shoes with no ties in the first 30-40 plays! or one tie at the beginning, one at the end and that's it. Others...I've seen 6 ties in the first 15 plays or 4 ties in 5 plays (second part of the shoe). I play only online and also one of my criteria was - when I saw 3-4 ties close one to another, the next shoe (same cards, hand shuffled) I had the tendency of playing Tie in the same portion of the shoe as previously. Ex : if 3-4 Ties appeared between hands 30 and 40 last shoe, the next shoe I would play Tie between hand 30 and 40, hoping at least one Tie would arrive. Sometimes it did, but a lot of times it didn't and I lost big money on ties. So in the end I gave up, sticking to Kevin's 5D only, which for me works very good. (Thank you again, Kevin, for your ideas and the generous sharing with us!)

Thank you! Good news !

Hi Keith! I've seen the video, congratulations! Good tool for a database of shoes to investigate. But I want to ask something, because I think I saw something you said in the past (don't know if it's correct or it was just my impression). Did the programmers made a tool to play 'in real time'? (to be used maybe mainly for online casinos or if you have it on your phone in a land casino - provided they let you use it). Something like "you insert the first 10-15 hands and the program calculates automatically based on SAP or 3D which is the best approach to use - S40 or OTBL with their modes or others, or when is the opportunity for an MDB bet; and if SAP or 3D changes, the program tells you automatically that you have to change from S40 to OTBL or Repeats or whatever; or, better, you just insert all data (10-15 hands and then every hand) and the program calculates automatically based on the best parameters and systems inserted in it and it gives the final result according to them (what to bet next, P or B - meaning which of these 2 has the more 'çhances' to appear based on the bias noticed so far in the shoe)." (all of these are my interpretation - how I would see such a tool ) And we have to pay a monthly fee to use it or something? Did I understand correctly or it was just my assumption? Thank you!

Ah, I understand... I never recorded any ties, this is why I did not notice... But you must be right...

Hi Tackmeister! I don't understand what you mean. I tested shoes with 4D analyser and did also the calculations manually and the results are similar.

Thank you very much! Now I understand better...waiting for Kevin...

Thank you Brad! I realized 4D is not as mechanical as I thought...good your advice... Yesterday I sent a PM to Kevin and hope he would reply and post in this thread. So not even the original MDB+ rules as stated by Ellis are valid anymore?

Still no 4D info from anyone...maybe no one use it at all ? Regarding MDB - does anyone use MDB in its original form - with BaS40, BaOTB4L, BaS4oM1 and SAP ? Is it still a valid approach? Or only MDB+ (and I understand now there are different rules) ? Just asking...I only read a little about what are they, did not try...Thank you!

Thank you all for the answers!

Ntrl9, I was not aware that MDB+ has such success for online casinos...from what I read and been told, it was mostly for preshuffled and less for biased...but you know better since you play it successfully... So for the moment I will stick only with NOR and 4D. Problem with NOR is that there are so many options that I got confused and dont know exactly how to start and what to do if shoe changes (which happened to me in my training). Should I start with S40M2 or OTB4LM2 and stick with it till the end or should I change mid shoe if 4D counts (or SAP counts??? which ones'?) are telling me it's better to do it? At least they cover opposites and part of runs - some repeats then...So to use 4D as an indicator for the NOR system to play, not as a tool in itself for play (which I don't know yet but wish to learn, if someone knows how exactly... Thank you!

Ho brad01 and thank you ! Having the 4D analyzer I have all 4 calculations on spot (but I learned to do them quickly also). Problem is what to do with them. As I understood reading the threads, in 4D we do not necessary use them to choose a NOR system (even though we could) , but to make specific bets that some events will happen (similar somehow with MDB+). Events like 'highest count goes even higher' (a 6 going to 9 or 10 on OO/TT, let's say) or 'lowest count stays in jail (in the 5 or 6 value spread as -2 to +3 or -3 to +3, for O/T, let's say). But from analyzing shoes I noticed this is not always happening and applying these procedures I won 1-2 units or even lost. Also, interesting to note how we can combine low side with high side at the sime time making a 2 units bet when they point towards same play (P or or 'no bet' when they contradict (if someone does this already or if it's a good idea). So it must be something that I miss or I use the 4D in a wrong way and don't know all details. I did not see any clear rules, meaning maybe it was still work in progress and get abandoned somehow...don't know...But I see a lot a value...maybe 4D for online playing is something similar to MDB+ for Las Vegas and Asia Regards, Clark

Thank you for the answer, Ntrl9! I have a friend who knows and plays only MDB+ (showed me just a little) but he did not study 4D at all (just read about it ) and is not playing online at all. He told me (and I also read here) that for online casinos MDB+ is not as suitable and better stick with NOR + 4D. This is why I'm asking. So I would be pleased at least to learn 4D properly...maybe the 5D you mention (4D + MDB+) is too much and not really 100% necessary with biased shoes online (meaning we can still win at least 5 units per shoe only with 4D). As I understand reading from threads, 4D is not so much about choosing a system, but playing specific bets (like 'highest count goes higher' or 'lowest count stays in jail') - so similar to MDB+ somehow, not with NOR. So for me, as I intend to focus entirely only on online live dealers, and with the amazing 4D live analyzer tool, I think this would be best (not MDB+). I also study NOR and probably will play it online, but somehow I have the impression that 4D is easier and has more logic and consistency. Still waiting for answers from someone who plays it... Thank you for mentioning Kachatz1 - I read a lot of his posts, I know he is very good with everything on Baccarat. All the best! Clark

Very good tool - thank you Keith and PeterUK! Just posted a new thread with some questions about it. Thank you! Clark

Hi all of you esteemed players! I am new on BTC, bought NOR manual few weeks ago and since then studied intensely the General and NOR forum. Did not play yet, just analyzing some shoes posted here and some of my own. I intend to focus only on internet casinos, live dealer and searching through forums I found the amazing tool 4D live analyser (congratulations to Keith with the idea and PeterUK with the effective tool!). I read everything about 4D, analyzed some shoes with this tool but...don’t understand how it works during real play. I also followed the 'Intro to NOR Baccarat' presentation on Youtube where at some point someone said 'NOR is good but ultimately one should learn 4D because it is more complete' so I studied them both (NOR and 4D). I understood and liked NOR but seems like 4D is adding something and don't know exactly what... I don’t see any recent posts on the subject – almost all were november 2013 – april 2014 and little afterwards. So I wanted to ask are there players who still use it and how does it work? What I understood, as a summary, is that we should look at the lowest spread (say -2 to +4 or -1 to + 5 etc) and bet the opposites against what comes – or net bet on the column with lowest disparity until it goes above 6 (as in my 2 examples). Or we could SS bet on the highest count that it goes higher. I tried both approaches (lowest spread and highest count) but not with so good results. It’s like something is still missing from my understanding or I apply it in a wrong way. From the discussions it seemed 4D is the highest approach for regular cards (internet) – but I don’t seem to get what to do about ‘the counts should stay in the jail of the lowest spread - max 5 or 6’ and ‘bet SS that the highest count will go even higher’ (which a lot of times is not the case for both, it’s the other way around). Not to mention I have to go from 1D to another when it goes higher (for O/T to O/R , for example). This is simple, I understand how to change the column but not sure if it’s still the right. I did not see any clear rules for 4D – are there any or there were only discussions and we reverted to simple NOR (or, other people to MDB and MDB+)? Is anyone still playing 4D (maybe live online dealer...or land casino, no matter) and could explain more (here or via PM)? I think it’s easy to use it online – half the screen the live dealer, other half the 4D analyser, as soon as the result comes you put it in the analyser and in 1 second you have all the results. I use it like this live to gather info about some shoes at an online casino - but what to do with them and how to play effectively?? Thank you very much! All the best and lots of success to you all! Clark