nor NOR Questions & Answers by E. Clifton Davis and Various ECD Players March 11, 2011

[chanuttara]

Just thought I would share a bit of info of what happened playing a few shoes online this morning on dublinbet, I have found out that changing all the time to what the shoe was doing caught me out and I can see sometimes its best to keep on with one of the 3 systems you are using. I know its a -8 stop loss but because I was just practising using play money did not stick with this and the first 2 shoes got down to -20 by changing to what the shoe was doing or what I though was doing.

So with shoe 3 I thought what is going wrong with my play so far and I could only work out I was changing with the shoe to much then the shoe going right back to what is was doing before, so on shoe 3 it started system 40 I went from a 1 unit flat bet got up to 1234 and then 234 at this point the shoe went PPBBPP and I thought OTB4L but I stayed with system 40 just in time for the shoe to throw PPBPBPBP I was so happy I stayed with 40 after that the shoe ended up 20+ units, on to shoe 4 I thought right that was 40 right through so took a chance on starting with 234 and went up to a 345 was another +20 shoe, so what I learnt from this practise play is don't change to soon as it could cost you but saying that I bet every casino is different and it could have just been how Dublin bet was playing this morning.

Cheers Gary

[d0ma1n]

Gary,

I am practicing with NOR too. And it is bearing fruits (after I have tried so many systems in BTC, and NOR will be the best of all) for now.

I hit my goal in 15mins in my recent trip. What I did was walked around and did some table selection, and there was a choppy shoe, so I just cashed in for $300 for 12units ($25) and sit on a min $50 table, so am playing $25 legally on a $50 table. I hit my goal $300 in 15mins, ROI 100%!, as there were a lot of 1s and 2s (understand better now why Ellis keep on pressing in table selection, which is important, you will win half way thru if u take the time off and see what the shoe is calling for). At this point, the whole table was looking at my chips .. where everyone was losing, and how come this cool guy have a steady chip growing. So, when I hit my goal, I step back for a drink, so am not in a spotlight.

Then, I had a cup of drink, and went back to the same shoe, it was still in chop mode, so I going in again, but suddenly it turned to be streaky, so what I did was after 2 losing bet, I just wait and see instead of going into OTR bet. Here I learned that, we don't need to bet every bet with NOR, we can just wait, then when the shoe is back to chop-mode, then we can continue with the left over prog (eg: lose 2 and 3 ... wait until it back to chop .. then bet for 4, OR lose 2 and 3, you can go OTR with 2, lose or win, start back with initial bet 2). But was not a long streak, then I hit another $200 in another 10 mins and called it a day !

Initial capital $300 and brought back $500, not bad after all, 167% return in less than 30mins - Neat !

Too bad, I didn't record this shoe as the electronic tote board was very convenient here and you can see everything is recorded nicely on the screen... Yeah, I practiced NOR for few months before I test it out, so I can run it in my head.

With NOR, am confident that it will bring more consistent winning. Now am practicing online at BPH, so far every shoe is a winner.. and have recorded every shoe I played (though am using fun chips). I find that in BPH, we are handicap as we can't do table selection, which is a tough training, that's why when we can select the table, we will beat the shoe easily coz table selection is half battle win !

Cheers

KS

[chanuttara]

Hi KS

Nice to hear about your win I've also been on the forum since 2008 and I've only just started looking at nor but for me it seems the best of the lot, my big problem is in England we have not got many casinos so I can only use online but if Dublinbet stays like today I will be happy.

[d0ma1n]

I see, so we are from the same batch of student 2008 .. haha time really flies ..

Then we shared the same experience in BTC .. great that so many good players are still around but most of them didn't post much nowadays.

I believe NOR will do good in a no-table selection situation, and great if you can select it. It also help to prepare us for the rainy day, sometimes we will have one or two bad shoes .. but it is flexible to adjust it.

Ellis finally can called it a day and will wait for the official manual soon.

Btw, HAPPY BIRTHDAY Ellis !!

Cheers

KS

[hawaiianal]

I see, so we are from the same batch of student 2008 .. haha time really flies ..

Then we shared the same experience in BTC .. great that so many good players are still around but most of them didn't post much nowadays.

I believe NOR will do good in a no-table selection situation, and great if you can select it. It also help to prepare us for the rainy day, sometimes we will have one or two bad shoes .. but it is flexible to adjust it.

Ellis finally can called it a day and will wait for the official manual soon.

Btw, HAPPY BIRTHDAY Ellis !!

Cheers

KS

KS,

I'm another one from that class of 2008.

I'm heading to Las Vegas on the 21st June to apply the same techniques you shared.

I've been practicing at home for the past 3/4 months and I'm ready to make my return.

It's been a long time since I last played in Vegas, (foolishly of course) but NOT anymore.

Got the tools to do some major reconstruction.

Where do you play?

Good luck to you and all from the class of 2008....

Aloha,

Al

ps: Happy Birthday Ellis - Me Ke Aloha Pumehana

[res]

Hi Ellis,

This shoe started out great in F. It did fine until hand 21. Could the shoe have been saved? Or, would you have gotten out?

P283115

B121232111411

B12113222321

B11

Thanks,

res

After looking over this shoe several times I got to wondering if a moving total for the O/R count might not work better.

Edited June 17, 2011 by res

[Guest]

Hi Ellis,

This shoe started out great in F. It did fine until hand 21. Could the shoe have been saved? Or, would you have gotten out?

P283115

B121232111411

B12113222321

B11

Thanks,

res

After looking over this shoe several times I got to wondering if a moving total for the O/R count might not work better.

Ron, I think you did as well as could be expected. It's just one of those cases where the 3rd F rule backfires on us at play 25.

F2 does fine in the first col. I switched to the 234 prog at play 16. This puts you at +11 at play 21. But then you lose your 234 putting you at +2 at play 24 with a 2 bet due. You would quit right there because once you get to +10 or better you don't make a bet that could take you below +1. This is how +10 makes you a guaranteed winner.

So, you made 2 units in 15 minutes. That is a whole lot better than losing. That is exactly how I ended up with so many +1's in the 17 trip shoes.

Sure, OTB4L would have done well in the 2nd column. But there was simply no indication of that.

Suppose you were playing black. You just made $200 in 15 minutes! (less commission). How much money does your dentist make?

Right, capping the OR count does well in some shoes. But in the long run I think it does as much harm as good. Better to get out of the game while you still have your shirt. We can't kill every shoe. Sometimes we are best off to settle for a small profit (or even a small loss). There will always be another shoe.

[Guest]

KS,

I'm another one from that class of 2008.

I'm heading to Las Vegas on the 21st June to apply the same techniques you shared.

I've been practicing at home for the past 3/4 months and I'm ready to make my return.

It's been a long time since I last played in Vegas, (foolishly of course) but NOT anymore.

Got the tools to do some major reconstruction.

Where do you play?

Good luck to you and all from the class of 2008....

Aloha,

Al

ps: Happy Birthday Ellis - Me Ke Aloha Pumehana

Thanks Al. 71 today. Going to see my girlfriend Ann. Although I can't quite remember what I'm supposed to do with her.

[Guest]

Gary,

I am practicing with NOR too. And it is bearing fruits (after I have tried so many systems in BTC, and NOR will be the best of all) for now.

I hit my goal in 15mins in my recent trip. What I did was walked around and did some table selection, and there was a choppy shoe, so I just cashed in for $300 for 12units ($25) and sit on a min $50 table, so am playing $25 legally on a $50 table. I hit my goal $300 in 15mins, ROI 100%!, as there were a lot of 1s and 2s (understand better now why Ellis keep on pressing in table selection, which is important, you will win half way thru if u take the time off and see what the shoe is calling for). At this point, the whole table was looking at my chips .. where everyone was losing, and how come this cool guy have a steady chip growing. So, when I hit my goal, I step back for a drink, so am not in a spotlight.

Then, I had a cup of drink, and went back to the same shoe, it was still in chop mode, so I going in again, but suddenly it turned to be streaky, so what I did was after 2 losing bet, I just wait and see instead of going into OTR bet. Here I learned that, we don't need to bet every bet with NOR, we can just wait, then when the shoe is back to chop-mode, then we can continue with the left over prog (eg: lose 2 and 3 ... wait until it back to chop .. then bet for 4, OR lose 2 and 3, you can go OTR with 2, lose or win, start back with initial bet 2). But was not a long streak, then I hit another $200 in another 10 mins and called it a day !

Initial capital $300 and brought back $500, not bad after all, 167% return in less than 30mins - Neat !

Too bad, I didn't record this shoe as the electronic tote board was very convenient here and you can see everything is recorded nicely on the screen... Yeah, I practiced NOR for few months before I test it out, so I can run it in my head.

With NOR, am confident that it will bring more consistent winning. Now am practicing online at BPH, so far every shoe is a winner.. and have recorded every shoe I played (though am using fun chips). I find that in BPH, we are handicap as we can't do table selection, which is a tough training, that's why when we can select the table, we will beat the shoe easily coz table selection is half battle win !

Cheers

KS

Exactly right KS and good job!

[Guest]

Just thought I would share a bit of info of what happened playing a few shoes online this morning on dublinbet, I have found out that changing all the time to what the shoe was doing caught me out and I can see sometimes its best to keep on with one of the 3 systems you are using. I know its a -8 stop loss but because I was just practising using play money did not stick with this and the first 2 shoes got down to -20 by changing to what the shoe was doing or what I though was doing.

So with shoe 3 I thought what is going wrong with my play so far and I could only work out I was changing with the shoe to much then the shoe going right back to what is was doing before, so on shoe 3 it started system 40 I went from a 1 unit flat bet got up to 1234 and then 234 at this point the shoe went PPBBPP and I thought OTB4L but I stayed with system 40 just in time for the shoe to throw PPBPBPBP I was so happy I stayed with 40 after that the shoe ended up 20+ units, on to shoe 4 I thought right that was 40 right through so took a chance on starting with 234 and went up to a 345 was another +20 shoe, so what I learnt from this practise play is don't change to soon as it could cost you but saying that I bet every casino is different and it could have just been how Dublin bet was playing this morning.

Cheers Gary

Right! It's usually a mistake to try to react to every whim of the shoe. I think Maverick makes a mistake always going by the last 7 plays. What is the OVERALL trend? The last 7 plays works well half the time - but EVERYTHING works well HALF the time. BTW, haven't heard much from him lately - or BK either. I think both those guys are good players. They might even be the best in the world - after us that is.

[d0ma1n]

trying to attached a test shoe ..

Edited June 17, 2011 by d0ma1n

[hawaiianal]

Thanks Al. 71 today. Going to see my girlfriend Ann. Although I can't quite remember what I'm supposed to do with her.

Ellis,

I'll be in Las Vegas from the 21st of June thru the 23rd.

If you're planning another trip to any casino in July I'd be interested in meeting with you and Keith - I just need a couple days notice.

Thanks again for all you've done for this forum.

Al

[TomM]

Thanks Al. 71 today. Going to see my girlfriend Ann. Although I can't quite remember what I'm supposed to do with her.

Happy Birthday Uncle E. Hey its just like riding a bicycle...hold on tight and don't fall off. lol

[Guest]

Ellis,

I'll be in Las Vegas from the 21st of June thru the 23rd.

If you're planning another trip to any casino in July I'd be interested in meeting with you and Keith - I just need a couple days notice.

Thanks again for all you've done for this forum.

Al

Unfortunately I won't be in Vegas anytime soon. Been pretty severely under the weather lately. But I think I know what the problem is and I'm trying to get a handle on it. At 71, shit happens.

Working on editing the manual. No actual changes. Just trying to get the wording smoother. Keith is working on the graphics.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Guest

[MVSeahog]

Thanks Al. 71 today. Going to see my girlfriend Ann. Although I can't quite remember what I'm supposed to do with her.

Oh great. This is what I have to look forward to???

AD (Happy Belated Birthday)

[Guest]

Here's a question I got by phone:

" I was doing well on Bet Phoenix with OTB4L but then it stopped working so I went to S40 but there were too many 2s. Lin"

Good grief! You are not getting the big picture. You need to go back and study your manual from the perspective of a single cohesive approach.

You don't decide what system you are going to play before you turn your computer on. You are missing the main point of NOR. YOU don't decide anything. The shoe decides everything: the System, the Mode, and the betting aggression. YOU are merely a spectator. You could be replaced by a robot arm as long as the robot can overlay all 3 systems on the shoe to determine which system and mode has the best hit rate thus far.

You play every day - God knows why. By now, you should be able to determine the right system and mode with merely a glance at the shoe. You should KNOW what each system likes and dislikes.

But first you must learn the three systems cold - which you haven't. There is NO WAY a shoe can have too many 2s for S40. S40 played with a simple 1,2 prog wins 1 unit on every 2 just as it wins 1 unit on every 1. The only way you could be complaining about 2s is if you don't play S40 right. How can you lose to a 2 betting opposites??? It's impossible.

Stop playing and start practicing and reading until you ALWAYS know what system and mode to play and how to bet. Nobody can learn for you. You have to do it yourself. You should be winning at least 90% of your shoes by now. Don't play for money again until you ARE.

And people wonder why I don't answer the phone every time. Now you know.

Look, here is the simplest way to look at it: EVERY shoe must be low in SOMETHING and then high in something else to make up for it. You CAN'T have a shoe that is high in everything or low in everything. All shoes equal out.

High 1's = S40

High 1's and 2s still = S 40

High 2s and 3s = OTB4L

High 3 or mores = F

This is NOT rocket science!

Normal 1's = 1 every 4 plays

Normal 2s = 1 every 8 plays

Normal 3's = 1 every 16 plays

Normal 3 or mores = 1 every 8 plays

What is your shoe low in?

What is your shoe high in?

If you can answer that you can play Baccarat.

If you can't, you can't!

Edited June 22, 2011 by Guest

[casno]

Hello Ellis:

Long time, don't speak, but I have been busy. Anyway, I was studying your new Nor Way of play and it surely all makes sense, as all three methods, more or less, covers everything a typical shoe would tend to produce.

I would like to suggest an idea to you of another way in approaching the three methods. The idea in mind is to set up a score card with three columns with the three method titals above each column. Then as each hand result is produced, place a circle in each column. As each column is filled in, began looking for each method to begin.

My thought is why not play all three methods at the same time, thus, covering every possible result of the three methods in a shoe? The trick is now to decide when to start betting and we would bet all three at the same time with a special progression that we could actually net-bet the proper total and where to make our bet, for what method! "If we can figure this one out, then I can't see why we would not be able to when every shoe played."

Being that you are the wizard at math in baccarat, I am hoping that maybe you could figure out the proper progression that would make this work 3 ways.

I mean if the number progression is right, you can net-bet P and B, then place your bet on the high side or we could just stay with the winning side that has not lost more than 3 times in a row?

So, what would be your thoughts here? Something of value or maybe take a stab at it...anyone else here can also give your thoughts and ideas.

[Guest]

Hello Ellis:

Long time, don't speak, but I have been busy. Anyway, I was studying your new Nor Way of play and it surely all makes sense, as all three methods, more or less, covers everything a typical shoe would tend to produce.

I would like to suggest an idea to you of another way in approaching the three methods. The idea in mind is to set up a score card with three columns with the three method titals above each column. Then as each hand result is produced, place a circle in each column. As each column is filled in, began looking for each method to begin.

My thought is why not play all three methods at the same time, thus, covering every possible result of the three methods in a shoe? The trick is now to decide when to start betting and we would bet all three at the same time with a special progression that we could actually net-bet the proper total and where to make our bet, for what method! "If we can figure this one out, then I can't see why we would not be able to when every shoe played."

Being that you are the wizard at math in baccarat, I am hoping that maybe you could figure out the proper progression that would make this work 3 ways.

I mean if the number progression is right, you can net-bet P and B, then place your bet on the high side or we could just stay with the winning side that has not lost more than 3 times in a row?

So, what would be your thoughts here? Something of value or maybe take a stab at it...anyone else here can also give your thoughts and ideas.

Glad you're back Casno! And, as usual, a very good idea! I've been playing this game so long it's hard for me to understand how a player can look at a shoe and not automatically know what system or mode to play. Fine, play them all! Just don't bet until you know what system and mode is producing the best hit rate. That is an obvious solution I just didn't think of. I don't think there is such a thing as too much experience but sometimes it leads to not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Once you have such a card set up you might want to continue that way to give you a good idea when to switch.

You guys will like Casno. He seems to know what questions to ask and he's always got good ideas for beginning players. - and pros too.

[res]

I think that the problem becomes how to handle the OTRs. If you don’t keep track of when you are supposed to bet OTR then you are right back to the OR Count. There are some differences, but not enough to make the extra work worthwhile.

If you do keep track of the OTR bets then you have the problem of when to go OTR. Each system is different and you have the modes to consider too. I don’t think that you would have time to do it between hands. You would still need to keep the event count.

res

[casno]

Res:

You can still keep the event count (O/R) and do the proper modes of each system method. It’s not that hard. If anything, by doing all three at the same time in the beginning, I think that you may actually learn the Nor much faster and see just how the methods are over lapping each other and learn their strengths. For instance, many times there will be two columns that are winning and only one that loses. This shows the overlap ability that Ellis has been preaching to us with Nor.

Believe me, keeping track of all three with the rules that Ellis has set is nothing. The challenge comes with how to use the information in making a choice-bet with net-betting in the proper mode. I am working on it as we speak. First we could say to net-bet only on the last two winning methods and not touch the losing one, but keeps our progression going on the losing mode for a later net-bet when that losing column comes into play! By net-betting, you can bet large progressions and bet low amounts. And by seeing all methods in play, you may not need the O/R count anymore or you can use it in a way to make a better bet placement? But, some testing needs to be done. I do not have all the answers right now, as this just an idea I am asking Ellis and others to look into.

Keep an open mind for what may be a better way, if anything it helps the beginners learn what is going on in the shoe with all three at the same time.

[kkriats]

Hi Canso

I tried your idea on a shoe and the result seems quite good.Simply I put all together using 1,2 M2 prog. Let me know what you think.

[ATTACH]2144[/ATTACH]

[casno]

kkriats:

I could not download your attachment. Can you just post it for everyone?

[Sir Donald]

Ellis, please provide an example or detailed illustration of switching between F2 and F3 or F3 to F2. Also clarify if, when playing a shoe blind, we start with F2 or F3....and appropriate rationale.

After reviewing scores of previous posts and attachments with shoe samples, there are none, which I could find, which clearly illustrate the correct switching technique......and there appears to be much confusion and contradictory comments on what should be a very simple concept.........If we lose to a 2 on the WEAK side, we switch to F3 and if we lose to a 3, we switch to F2. Hopefully, we can nail this down and never mention it again. Thanks.

Don

[Sir Donald]

Allow me to weigh in on a recent post by Casno and others, regarding a rather intriguing concept for playing all 3 NOR systems at the same time.

I enthusiastically support the idea........but NOT at the expense of delaying the NOR manual publication, which according to Ellis is almost complete.

Actually, I have been experimenting with a similar, although simpler idea, for playing all NOR systems simultaneously......but only to PERFECT the overlay concept for selecting the very BEST system for the shoe at hand, and ONLY for the first 10 or so initial plays of the shoe. This can be done without changing or modifying existing NOR rules and most importantly......adhering to the simple adage of KISS.!!

For now, I opt to reserve all new NOR concepts and sophisticated methodologies for perhaps a future ADVANCED edition of NOR......God (Ellis) willing.!!

Don

[res]

Casno & Sir Donald,

I agree it's a nice concept. But there are three different systems, all with different prog lengths and 2 modes for each.

My point(s): If you are ignoring the OTR bets you are just as well off with the OR count and the event count. If you are not ignoring the OTR bets it will be almost impossible to keep track and keep up in a live game.

I do agree that an overlay is similar, but that can be done quite easily by looking back on your scorecard. I think that that is an ability one must work on developing. I also agree that it might be a good idea for learning the method.

res