nor NOR Questions & Answers by E. Clifton Davis and Various ECD Players March 11, 2011

[TangNangDoaHoa]

Ellis today i play 2 shoes, playing NOR, -8, -7 , i started in the blind playing s40 on both after the first hand dealt, i were drunk that time oh and now too, GUys know what? after that i took out the free weapon called The Sytem Level One, yall know, won 21 units Haha, sometimes light stuff can be more pounds than heavy, is it just luck?? or of the sytem? BTW i don't play by luck anymore since the day i got mah foot into this site

[Baccarat A]

I came across an interesting shoe last night while practicing NOR. What I do is play the same shoe several times. First time is S40, second OTB4L and 3rd F2,3. Sometimes I’ll play it a 4th time allowing for a system change during the shoe. I also track the o/r, 1’s and p/b. I have found that by practicing this way, I really see what each system likes and doesn’t like. It has also helped me to allow the shoe to develop and not try to change systems with every whim of the shoe.

I’m getting away from what I want to tell you about. This shoe is a great example of “overlapâ€. I used the straight 1-2-3-4 betting system and scored over 20 units with all three systems! I think that the lack of 3’s is probably why. Anyway have some fun with it.

B22212214121

P11123122121111

B84221111

B1111151

[Guest]

I came across an interesting shoe last night while practicing NOR. What I do is play the same shoe several times. First time is S40, second OTB4L and 3rd F2,3. Sometimes I’ll play it a 4th time allowing for a system change during the shoe. I also track the o/r, 1’s and p/b. I have found that by practicing this way, I really see what each system likes and doesn’t like. It has also helped me to allow the shoe to develop and not try to change systems with every whim of the shoe.

I’m getting away from what I want to tell you about. This shoe is a great example of “overlapâ€. I used the straight 1-2-3-4 betting system and scored over 20 units with all three systems! I think that the lack of 3’s is probably why. Anyway have some fun with it.

B22212214121

P11123122121111

B84221111

B1111151

A very sensible way to practice BA and yes, a very interesting shoe. Ha, maybe we should just skip the bet after a 2.

[res]

Hi Ellis,

Can you give us an estimate for what % of shoes we should be winning? That is assumming that we are playing properly.

Thanks,

res

[Guest]

Hi Ellis,

Can you give us an estimate for what % of shoes we should be winning? That is assumming that we are playing properly.

Thanks,

res

Hi Ron! About 85 - 90% depending on table selection availability.

[stevep]

Back at the beginning you stated that "OR and EC combined assure that you are playing each shoe the best possible way it can be played."

Unless I missed it I can find no place that the EC is discussed.

[Guest]

Back at the beginning you stated that "OR and EC combined assure that you are playing each shoe the best possible way it can be played."

Unless I missed it I can find no place that the EC is discussed.

Right we simply dropped the EC or Events Count terminology since we already have SAP (which means events count) but we did not drop the principle. Overlay and systems likes and dislikes and Modes 2 and 3 which are decided by events count are all thoroughly covered in the NOR Approach thread.

[Bertso77]

Hi Guys,

I’m fairly new here. This is my first post.

First off I’d like to say hello and thanks for all the great information. You guys do an excellent job here and I’m pleased to be a part of this wonderful community.

I think I’m doing a pretty good job of getting through all this information. I’m learning a ton.

I have a few questions on the NOR approach. I don’t want to flood you with too many questions at the start so I’ll keep it to a couple.

My questions will be strictly on the NOR System40.

From what I understand NOR System40 differs a little from the original System40 which was a complete system, because we use this strictly as a chop system and only use 3,4 as the culprit.

I’m doing some home shoes for practice and I’m working on System40.

The Shoe I’m working on, here’s the info:

I’m on my 45th play.

I’m playing System40 U1D2 M2

OR count = +1, SAP count (1’s = 9) (2’s=18) (3’s=16) (4’s=0) (5’s=0)

The OR count has been hovering around zero the whole time so I know I should be playing OTB4L but I’m still learning S40 so for practice I’m sticking with it. I’m up 17 units.

Here are my questions:

I hit my first streak of 4 so I lost 3 in a row. I go OTR for 4 units and I win. Now there is 5 Players in a row.

Now what do I do?

Do I bet 2 units on opposites again? Stay OTR? or stop betting until the streak ends?

What if I lost that bet, where would my next 5unit bet be?

What do I do if I lose a 5unit bet? But I’m still up enough to keep playing. Do I flat bet 5units or start back at 1unit or just quit?

I look forward to you help.

Thanks in advance,

Robert,

[Guest]

Hi Bertso and first, welcome to the group. I already see you are a serious student because that is a hell of a question for openers. Most ask: What is an Opposite? or What the hell do all those circles mean?

Correct, the stand alone version of S40 and the NOR version of S40 are similar but different versions of S40. In your shoe, you are playing the stand alone version not the NOR version.

How do I know this?

Well first, NOR would have either got safely out of the shoe back at +10 or advanced to the 234/345 a long time ago.

NOR S40 would have been betting 123 4, not U1D2.

And, as you noted, NOR would likely have been playing OTB4L. And OTB4L would likely have got to +10 before you did.

So OK, what you are really asking is what Stand Alone S40 should do at this point, right?

OK, you won your first OTR 4 bet which means the shoe had its first 5 run on Bank and has had no 4s because that first 4 turned into a 5. But that was immediately followed by a 5 run on P, right? But we don't know that yet, do we.

After the winning 4 OTR, U1D2 calls for a 2 bet on P because when waiting for 3 losses to go OTR we only stay OTR for ONE bet. So we win our 2 bet on P and then lose another 1,2 against the Player 5. But this time we make our 3 bet OTR on the 4th circle of the player run. Why? because 5 or mores now outnumber 4s. OK, we win our 3 OTR so we bet 1 OTR. (When we go on runs after 2 losses we stay otr for 2 bets.) OK, we win our 1 OTR so now we go back to nomal S40 with a 1 bet on Opposite which is Bank. And if the Player 5 stayed at 5 we win that last 1 bet.

So we just came through a 5,5 with flying colors even though we are playing a chop system. So what do we do NOW?

We quit! Our next bet would be 1 unit on B because when we win a 1 OTR we stay at 1.

But we just got through a 5,5 by the skin of our teeth and we don't know if the 5,5 will stay 5,5 or go to 5,6.

But we just had 8 repeats in 9 plays. This is no place for S40. We quit with what + 20? Hey, that is a GREAT shoe but headed for disaster. A 5,5 or 5,6 is a definite quit signal for either version of S40! Count your blessings.

You would NEVER flat bet at 5. If you lose a 5 you either quit (recommended) or go back to 1.

In the NOR version a losing 5 means we lost a 345. We would go back to 3.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Guest

[Bertso77]

Ellis,

Wow thanks so much for the fantastic explanation you actually answered a lot of other questions I had as well.

I really think I’m starting to get this.

I was a little fuzzy on how the bet progression works, but I think I understand it now.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

For betting progression, if I’m on 123, I start at 1 and if I win I go to 2 and if I lose 2 I go back to 1 and if I make a 3 bet, win or lose I go back to 1?

Is that the same for all 123, 1234, 234, 345?

I know this isn’t recommended but if I start a shoe without knowing any information on it I should bet...

011 or

111 or

112 something along those lines to let the shoe tell me which system and mode to use.

But, if I did my work and studied the tote boards and the previous table shoes and I can see maybe the last 20 plays, I should know if it’s a good table and what system and mode to use.

In that case my betting would be like this...

1234 for mode 2

123 for mode 3

And if I’m doing well the shoe should keep me in mode 3 so I would increase my betting to:

234

And if still doing great

345

Am I correct in thinking that I would never be in mode 2 and betting 234 or 345?

If I got my betting up to 234 or 345 and mode 3 changed to mode 2 would I go back to 123 4 or would I just assume that the shoe is changing and just walk away?

Also if I’m betting 123 or 1234 my stop loss is absolutely not worse than -8 and my profit taking no better than +10.

At 234 I up my take profit to +20 and my stop loss should be moved somewhere in profit.

And at 345 I up my t/p to +30 and raise my s/l again to lock in more profit and not give most of my winnings back.

Sorry for all the question all at once but I’m just really excited about learning this. These forums have been great.

I just have 1 last question:

I have studied all 3 systems and I think I have them down pretty good. My only problem is the ZZ OTR bet in OTB4L. I do understand how and when to use it according to which mode I’m in, but is there an easy way to keep track of the ZZ mode?

For the repeat OTR bets I use the SAP count

Is there a trick to keeping track of the ZZ count or do you just look up the card to figure out which ZZ mode you are in?

Thanks a million for all your help

This should tide me over for a while.

I’ll try not to bug you too much.

Robert,

[MVSeahog]

Here are my questions:

I hit my first streak of 4 so I lost 3 in a row. I go OTR for 4 units and I win. Now there is 5 Players in a row.

Now what do I do?

Do I bet 2 units on opposites again? Stay OTR? or stop betting until the streak ends?

What if I lost that bet, where would my next 5unit bet be?

What do I do if I lose a 5unit bet? But I’m still up enough to keep playing. Do I flat bet 5units or start back at 1unit or just quit?

I look forward to you help.

Thanks in advance,

Robert,

Robert,

First off, welcome aboard. Let's see if I can add my 2 cents to this before the really good players jump in!

As best I can determine, you were at +17 at hand 45. You lost hands 46, 47 and 48 but hit the 4 unit wager at hand 49 putting you at +15.

You asked if you should stay on the Player side even though the SAP chart is showing zero runs past 3! Well, my theory would be, assuming I've got the picture right, would be to stay on the Player run making the 2 unit wager as required and then 1's until it quit. As this was the first run over 3, it may just run out a bit, you just don't know but there should be a run in there somewhere. Even if it quits on the next wager, you're still in good shape for the shoe.

On your second question, "what if the 4 unit wager lost, where would the 5 unit wager go?" Well, you'd be at hand 50 sitting at +7 when you were just at +17! Making a 5 unit wager here is not really in our best intererests. You've already given back 10 units and are rapidly coming up on the last column.

Me? If I had lost the 1,2,3,4 series to drop me 10 units that late in the shoe, I'd just pull the plug and take the win.

Taking a +7 out of a shoe after losing 4 escalating wagers that late would not make for a good feeling going into the rest of the shoe. Making the 5 unit wager and losing it brings you to +2, not counting commissions and that would be devastating after being at +17 a short while ago.

Take the win and live to fight the next shoe.

Yes, we just "know" that the shoe will turn around, but then again, a win in the pocket sure feels better than watching a potential winning shoe go negative that late.

One of the things in a thread buried somewhere is the theory of a descending stop loss/win. Most call it a "decade stop" where you stop if your profit drops to the nearest 10 (or 5). Losing from a +28 to +20 would be a good place to call it a good shoe and exit. Some would exit from +28 at +25 if it was in the last column or close to it.

Get those wins under your belt and you'll feel much better.

In the previous example, with me losing the wagers and holding at +7, I'd either exit or maybe just throw one more "flyer" on it and see if it could carry itself back to +10.

Under no circumstances would I chase after that last "single" and drop below +6 !!!

I've got quite a few baccarat sheets here that have done just that. Late in the shoe, a few losses, one quick try to get the single back and it loses. I am so out of there with the WIN at +6.

I play a pretty conservative game these days and several others here would play on, albeit probably running something like 1,2,1,2, etc until they saw the shoe develop in something at the end.

Here's hoping this helps. You'll find that soon enough you'll be thinking about this stuff in your head when you go to sleep, just for the practice!

MVS

[uneek]

Hi Everyone I have been out of the loop for some time now, so can anyone tell me what mode1 and mode 2 is? Thanks

Tom

[Guest]

Hi Everyone I have been out of the loop for some time now, so can anyone tell me what mode1 and mode 2 is? Thanks

Tom

Tom, for the best and simplest explanation, go to the thread "How to bet after 3 losses" and look at post# 9 first and then the entire thread.

Also the thread The NOR Approach is your preliminary NOR Manual. But the above explanation of modes is simpler than the manual.

[Guest]

Guys, it occurs to me that I am confusing you with the term "mid shoe entry". I do not mean the middle of the shoe necessarily. I mean starting some place other than the beginning of the shoe.

Once you know which system to use at a strongly biased table, there is little point in waiting. I often start before I have confirmed the mode. But I never make a 4 bet until I have confirmed the mode.