nor NOR Questions & Answers by E. Clifton Davis and Various ECD Players March 11, 2011

[ECD]

I think I'll reissue that system under the label The Party System. It's a great system for the non serious player who likes to party at casinos. Its simple and up as you win systems have very low risk. But if you can find a streaky table.....!

[ECD]

BTW, for the young guys, due to inflation, back then $100 chips were equivalent to $1000 chips today.

[MVSeahog]

In F3 we don't attempt switching sides until there is a 3 on the other side. If it goes 4, good, we successfully switched sides but if the 3 stays 3 we lose our switch bet and switch right back.

Hmm, for some reason I had kind of missed that one a long time ago.

Sure enough I went back and looked at a bunch of my F2/F3 played shoes and that would have really helped out!

Just finished a shoe on Bet Phoenix running F3 and the "new found wisdom" and I'll be darned if it didn't pull out a nice win running F3 right out of the box!

You learn something every day. At least I do.

MVS

[ECD]

Hmm, for some reason I had kind of missed that one a long time ago.

Sure enough I went back and looked at a bunch of my F2/F3 played shoes and that would have really helped out!

Just finished a shoe on Bet Phoenix running F3 and the "new found wisdom" and I'll be darned if it didn't pull out a nice win running F3 right out of the box!

You learn something every day. At least I do.

MVS

Right, we added that rule#3 double switch rule to F2,3 about a year ago. Several of us checked it on our cards and found it was a significant overall improvement even though it occassionally backfires. Now, YOU make one more! It's right more than it's wrong. I think its due to the strong side phenomenon in most streaky shoes. If we get a shoe where rule 3 is not working we can always drop it for that shoe.

Another similar trick I use with F esp. with old cards, late night play is to note when the weak side cannot produce more than a 3 in a row. Then I essentially go to F4. This came in handy when I got snow bound in PA. What else was there to do at night?

The more you practice and play, the more of these little tips you pick up.

Edited April 17, 2011 by ECD

[Sir Donald]

Ellis,

Just a few suggestions to assist all of us in adhering to the specific rules for S40A.

Please post ALL the current rules for S40, F2, F3, F4 & OTB4L Also, post sample shoes illustrating & highlighting these current rules, as well as switching techniques.

You are to be commended for your outstanding NOR approach to teaching newer members the essential basics. Keep up the good work.

Don

[MVSeahog]

Right, we added that rule#3 double switch rule to F2,3 about a year ago. Several of us checked it on our cards and found it was a significant overall improvement even though it occassionally backfires.

All,

Well, I got another chance to give my new found F3 another try today while running in parallel with my normal system play.

It went very well, thank you.

I generally start the F2/F3 play on the side with the first repeat and in today's shoe it was a nice B4 right off the bat. I stayed on Bank running F3 for the whole shoe!!

F2 would have done adequate in this but F3 did a very nice +19! Very unusual for me.

Anyway, for those who were running F3 under the "old" rules, take another look at some of your sheets. It appears to be working nicely for now and I was never a big F3 player. F2 was more my speed but sometimes the shoe is just slapping you to stay on one side!

I was looking forward to playing out this shoe as it was running very well but Bet Phoenix had a "server lockup" at hand 33 and that was all she wrote!

MVS

Bet Phoenix April 17, 2011 4pm

B4121412122

B2151121

[ECD]

All,

Well, I got another chance to give my new found F3 another try today while running in parallel with my normal system play.

It went very well, thank you.

I generally start the F2/F3 play on the side with the first repeat and in today's shoe it was a nice B4 right off the bat. I stayed on Bank running F3 for the whole shoe!!

F2 would have done adequate in this but F3 did a very nice +19! Very unusual for me.

Anyway, for those who were running F3 under the "old" rules, take another look at some of your sheets. It appears to be working nicely for now and I was never a big F3 player. F2 was more my speed but sometimes the shoe is just slapping you to stay on one side!

I was looking forward to playing out this shoe as it was running very well but Bet Phoenix had a "server lockup" at hand 33 and that was all she wrote!

MVS

Bet Phoenix April 17, 2011 4pm

B4121412122

B2151121

Another F trick that works particularly well in a good F3 shoe is to change your prog to the 345 loop.

You might want to try it with that same shoe and compare. What's neat about it with F3 is when you switch sides you are also restarting your prog. Makes me wonder if we should always do this???

There is quite a bit of comfort in the fact that you KNOW that 5 is your highest bet.

Starting as you did with a repeat at play 2, the 345 loop achieves a +43 in your shoe. Not bad for only 33 hands. I don't think we give the 345 enough credit. The phrase that comes to mind is "unwarranted fear".

[ECD]

Ellis,

Just a few suggestions to assist all of us in adhering to the specific rules for S40A.

Please post ALL the current rules for S40, F2, F3, F4 & OTB4L Also, post sample shoes illustrating & highlighting these current rules, as well as switching techniques.

You are to be commended for your outstanding NOR approach to teaching newer members the essential basics. Keep up the good work.

Don

OK, I'll do that chapter of the NOR Approach Manual next. I'm attempting to write that manual giving priority to the topics the members seem the haziest on. We can rearrange later.

I'm sure the rules will seem short and concise. This is because we only need the rules that apply to the NOR Concept. We can eliminate all the rules that were put in to make the 3 systems universal.

I think the toughest part is to convey the concept that with OTB4L we need to look at Straight and ZZ runs separately and adjust our PL accordingly for both, separately.

I'm quite confident that we can eliminate the need for SAP charting with all 3 NOR systems but I'm also comfortable with the fact that I know our best players will do their SAP charting anyway.

I think the toughest overall NOR concept, in fact it is a pet Baccarat concept, is to get the idea across that Retreat is NOT cowardly in Baccarat. It is a heads up tactical maneuver just as "Attack" is a critical heads up maneuver. We must KNOW when WE have the upper hand just as we must know when THEY have the upper hand. It's a war out there guys and we must learn to think in military tactics.

Edited April 18, 2011 by ECD

[Plasia87]

What are the two modes for each system you speak about? I think I might be blind, I can't find them!

[ECD]

Well, first you can call them whatever you want, which ever way you remember them better.

For both S40 and OTB4L you can go OTR after either 2 losing bets or 3 losing bets. Those are your 2 modes. See, you can only lose those 2 or 3 bets against a run. I think that whether you go otr after 2 losing bets or 3 is pretty well explained.

F is really the same. You switch sides after a 2 or a 3 on the other side from where you are betting, which is the same as saying after 2 or 3 losing bets. Those are the same 2 modes as the other 2 systems. We could say, you go OTR - same difference and if you lose you switch right back just as you do on the other two systems. Therefore the Modes are really exactly the same for all 3 systems.

Does that help?

Edited April 19, 2011 by ECD

[hawaiianal]

Well, OK, I'll tell you because Keith can't post for shit!

I had developed an extremely aggressive system called the Ladder System. It is an up as you win system that essentially bets on 3+s. Every time there is a 3 or more you win your 3 bet prog and move up to the next more aggessive prog. There are an avg. of 9 3+s per shoe but back then there was even more! You start betting on the opposite side of the first 2 in the shoe.

Your first prog is 123 up as you win. When you win that you go to the other side and bet 246, then 4 8 12, then 8 16 24.

See the first bet of each prog is the second bet of your last prog. Your 2nd bet is twice your first bet and your 3rd bet is your first and second bet added together. You win your prog every time the shoe produces a 3 or more and back then 3 or mores were far too common. Very, very aggressive! Don't try this at home. On second thought ONLY try it at home, NOT in a casino.

Anyway I had just completed a ladder seminar at Foxwood wherein I absolutey killed their $100 Big Bac table in the public exhibition I used to do after every seminar. Beat them soundly 3 shoes in a row. So when I announced I would be playing at Turning Stone is upstate NY the next week 6 of us showed up.

We played Turning Stone's brand new $100 Big Bac table. The guys were mostly betting single blacks but a couple of us were betting double blacks including me.

The first shoe was high in 3+s as usual and we won about 100 units each all betting exactly the same way. It was by far the biggest loss Turning Stone had ever suffered and the Pit Boss was already making frantic phone calls to his Indian bosses.

The funniest part was when Jack McCan who had got there late and just in time for the worst part of the first shoe mumbled: "Play my chips I'm going to the John." Jack, also playing double blacks, was substancially down when he left for the John but while he was gone we hit a 3,3. Jack comes back and takes one look at his huge pile of chips, says nothing and starts walking away. I yell, "Jack, where are you going?" "Back to the john!"

The 2nd shoe starts B233332 !

Starting at play 3 we won 14 straight bets in a row and had just won the 32 bet. Together we were up over a thousand units in that shoe alone. They immediately covered the table and threw us out. That cover stayed on that table for 2 years.

It was fillet mignon for everybody that night. I bought!

Thank God they didn't shoot us. Those guys just can't take a joke!

Ellis,

Now that is FUNNY.......

Nothing would please me more than an encore of that historic moment.

Heck, if I was there I'd probably jump up on the Bac Table and perform my exclulsive "Fire Dance" lighting both ends of the weilding "fire knife" with my teeth.

Thanks for that inspired experience.

Looking forward to meeting you and the gang this year.

Aloha,

Al

[ECD]

For the fun of it let's go back to the question: "Must the progressive bettor win more than half his bets to win the shoe?" This question started a 5 year war between me and the BJ card counting sites of which there are many.

I learned to beat the AC 8 deck BJ game very consistently using progressive betting, particularly the 146 progression. When I wrote my first gaming book NBJ I had just finished 3 years of full time play W/O a single losing day.

No one can count cards faster than I can. No one ever gave card counting a fairer test than I did. -$40,000 in 2 months. It was the only time in my gambling career I ever lost. I can tell you for an absolute proven fact that card counting, as big as that industry is and with all their movies, is a pure unadulterated coordinated scam. - the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the gambling world.

With their thousands of members, they cannot produce a single year end winner. ALL of them lose.

What is their answer to that? They say: "It doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you make the correct play." As insane as that may sound to anyone they have not yet brainwashed.

As soon as these BJ gurus saw NBJ they knew right off that it was a far better approach to BJ than the crap they had been scamming the public with for decades. So what did they do? To protect their illegitimate industry they all wrote scathing reviews of NBJ and planted them all over the internet.

In spite of their efforts NBJ did $millions in sales and is still today the single most successful product release in the history of gaming.

So what was their big complaint about NBJ? Progressive betting.

With no other leg to stand on they claimed the progressive bettor must win more than half his hands to win overall. This is pure concocted, fabricated, unadulterated bullshit. When Archer came to our forum and made that same claim several years ago, he got it from the card counting gurus. Recognizing he had been completely brain washed, I kicked him off the forum. But he gets back in regularly anyway.

Not to mention the fact that card counters use progressions too. They are careful not to mention that fact. OK, your count is +20 so you make your high bet. The count goes to +22 so you lose and raise your bet. Whoops! THAT is a progression. But they are careful not to call it a progression but that is exactly what it is. So back to the pertinent question.

Must a progressive bettor win more than half his bets as the card counting gurus have everyone believing?

Allow me to produce a little demonstation. For clarity I'm going to use an U1D1 prog. I'll give you 20 bets and * the bets I won. I don't care if the game happens to be BJ or Bac.

1

2

3*

2*

1

2

3

4*

3*

2*

1

2

3

4

5*

4

5*

4*

3*

2*

OK that's 20 plays. I won half of them. I'm at +10 in 20 plays. The flat bettor is at 0.

Did I cheat? Hell no. Arrange the wins and losses anyway you want. If I win half the bets, I win.

The sad part isn't that they are wrong. The sad part is they are perpetrating and perpetuating a lie and they know it but don't care. They aren't stupid. It's their thousands of victims that are stupid.

I spent a lifetime fighting these scammers. But they are too big and too well organized. I'm just one guy and my words blow away in the wind. But at least I tried.

Edited April 20, 2011 by ECD

[ECD]

Oh, and what are the odds of winning half your hands? Ha, well Bac is a 50/50 game. If you flip a coin you win half your hands long run. Think your brain can beat a coin flip?

In BJ, perfect basic strategy wins 43% of the hands on its BEST day. How is a perfect basic stategist going to make out flat betting with a 43% hit rate??? So OK they use a higher bet in a + count. Big whip! They can't even get up to 50% hit rate in a plus count.

But they have double downs, splits, insurance, BJs.

And I have thousands of casino statistics that clearly demonstrate that the perfect BS player loses overall on his DDs, his splits as well as insurance. BJs are like peeing in the ocean to raise the sea level!

The only way to win at BJ is to know when to defy Basic Strategy to get your hit rate up over 50%. That is what NBJ teaches you.

The perfect Basic Strategist loses perfectly!

Oh, sorry, I guess I got a little nostalgic this morning. Keith and his son nearly got killed in a flash flood 2 days ago. Stuff like that makes you ponder your life.

Edited April 20, 2011 by ECD

[vinfong318]

what is the meaning of SS 2-3

OP 3-4 ,OTB4L 4-5

ThaNKS.

[ECD]

what is the meaning of SS 2-3

OP 3-4 ,OTB4L 4-5

ThaNKS.

SS 2-3 = Strong Side Modes 2 &3 = F2,3

OP 3-4 = Opposites Modes 3&4 = S402,3

OTB4L 4-5 = Opposite Time Before Last Modes 4 and 5

I was trying to make the names of the 3 NOR systems more difinitive but I don't think I suceeded.

Maybe S+2,3; S02,3 and S-2,3 which would be 40, OTB4L and F respectively.

Maybe we should have a name contest???

I seem to be bad on naming stuff lately.

Edited April 20, 2011 by ECD

[vinfong318]

Thanks ,

But besides the name i think there should a place where all the definations are explained.

Sorry because although I know the name but I am not sure about the definations , maybe a example will best illustrate each system.

[vinfong318]

Yes... Life is actually very short and not many of us can do what we enjoy doing as a living.

I think you have given a lot of us here a hope in life.

Thanks.

The Following is one of the shoe that I play the other day .

I was confuse which system to use , its a positive and I thought to use S40.... Please advise me and also on progression.... I always Flat bet.... but so far I still manage to win every time I visit the casino.

Edited April 21, 2011 by vinfong318

[vinfong318]

For the fun of it let's go back to the question: "Must the progressive bettor win more than half his bets to win the shoe?" This question started a 5 year war between me and the BJ card counting sites of which there are many.

I learned to beat the AC 8 deck BJ game very consistently using progressive betting, particularly the 146 progression. When I wrote my first gaming book NBJ I had just finished 3 years of full time play W/O a single losing day.

No one can count cards faster than I can. No one ever gave card counting a fairer test than I did. -$40,000 in 2 months. It was the only time in my gambling career I ever lost. I can tell you for an absolute proven fact that card counting, as big as that industry is and with all their movies, is a pure unadulterated coordinated scam. - the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the gambling world.

With their thousands of members, they cannot produce a single year end winner. ALL of them lose.

What is their answer to that? They say: "It doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you make the correct play." As insane as that may sound to anyone they have not yet brainwashed.

As soon as these BJ gurus saw NBJ they knew right off that it was a far better approach to BJ than the crap they had been scamming the public with for decades. So what did they do? To protect their illegitimate industry they all wrote scathing reviews of NBJ and planted them all over the internet.

In spite of their efforts NBJ did $millions in sales and is still today the single most successful product release in the history of gaming.

So what was their big complaint about NBJ? Progressive betting.

With no other leg to stand on they claimed the progressive bettor must win more than half his hands to win overall. This is pure concocted, fabricated, unadulterated bullshit. When Archer came to our forum and made that same claim several years ago, he got it from the card counting gurus. Recognizing he had been completely brain washed, I kicked him off the forum. But he gets back in regularly anyway.

Not to mention the fact that card counters use progressions too. They are careful not to mention that fact. OK, your count is +20 so you make your high bet. The count goes to +22 so you lose and raise your bet. Whoops! THAT is a progression. But they are careful not to call it a progression but that is exactly what it is. So back to the pertinent question.

Must a progressive bettor win more than half his bets as the card counting gurus have everyone believing?

Allow me to produce a little demonstation. For clarity I'm going to use an U1D1 prog. I'll give you 20 bets and * the bets I won. I don't care if the game happens to be BJ or Bac.

1

2

3*

2*

1

2

3

4*

3*

2*

1

2

3

4

5*

4

5*

4*

3*

2*

OK that's 20 plays. I won half of them. I'm at +10 in 20 plays. The flat bettor is at 0.

Did I cheat? Hell no. Arrange the wins and losses anyway you want. If I win half the bets, I win.

The sad part isn't that they are wrong. The sad part is they are perpetrating and perpetuating a lie and they know it but don't care. They aren't stupid. It's their thousands of victims that are stupid.

I spent a lifetime fighting these scammers. But they are too big and too well organized. I'm just one guy and my words blow away in the wind. But at least I tried.

Yes, Progression can be the key to winning, I always flat bet but sometimes it seems that I cannot win much ... and in some shoes just break even.

I am afraid of progression because like the above example , If half of all my bets are correct in the first 10 hands then the next 10 hands all my decision is wrong then it could be devastating.... but I know this could not be the case .

[ECD]

Yes... Life is actually very short and not many of us can do what we enjoy doing as a living.

I think you have given a lot of us here a hope in life.

Thanks.

The Following is one of the shoe that I play the other day .

I was confuse which system to use , its a positive and I thought to use S40.... Please advise me and also on progression.... I always Flat bet.... but so far I still manage to win every time I visit the casino.

`

What a beautiful job of shoe posting you do! I wish I had your computer talents.

This particular shoe is so good that the guys are going to think you planted it for me. I apologize that I can't post shoes at the moment but I'll get Keith to post it for me hopefully later today. Meanwhile, let's go through this shoe in detail.

First I would classify this shoe as super chop because the OR counts hits +8. In fact in this shoe it goes clear to +11. It is HIGHLY likely that the prior shoes at this table were also highly choppy. So you would be highly likely to have already settled in on S40 at this particular table long before this shoe began. You also would be highly likely to have already settled in on betting the 345 loop.

Under the heading Dead Giveaways in the NOR manual I listed that shoes starting with a ZZ run are a dead giveaway for S40. So you were right to go to S40.

I also said in the manual that with S40 it's best to start with a PL of 3. (3 losing bets before you go OTR). We call this S40-3. (S40 Mode 3) This shoe never even hints at getting out of mode 3 because by the time we get our first 4 we've already had 4 3s. So I played it Mode 3 all the way. (4s LC)

So let's first play it S40-3 U1D2 M2 first.

U1D2 M2 is our base progression. From there we can go one step more aggressive with the 345 loop but many steps less aggressive with U1D2, 1234 loop, 123 loop, and the 012, and flat bet.

The idea is the better the shoe the more aggressive we want to be just as the worse the shoe the less aggressive we want to be. EVERYBODY in Baccarat gets that WRONG! They end up making their highest bets in their worst shoes. DON'T be like everybody else. Everybody else LOSES.

S40-3 U1D2 M2: OK, so we are going to start at play #2 with a 1 bet on B and play #3 a 2 bet on P. (that is what we mean by M2.)

With U1D2 M2 our goal is +20. That is a conservative goal for U1D2 M2 but we can adjust it for exceptionally good shoes as well as for exceptionally tough shoes.

We find that we hit our goal of +20 already at play #26. We might very well decide to quit right there. I personally most likely would quit right there because I've seen so many times the trouble you can get into when you push the +20 U1D2 M2 goal.

BTW our goal for all the lesser progs is +10 and our goal for the 345 loop, our most aggressive prog is +30. This will all be covered in the Betting Chapter of our NOR Approach Manual.

But we might decide to continue on in this particular shoe because we hit our +20 goal so early (play 26) and also because we happen to be in a ZZ run.

If we play on, we find that we hit our highest score (+28) for the second time at play 61. Hitting your highest score for the 2nd time late in the shoe is a MANDATORY QUIT point. It is very foolish to play beyond this point. So staying in the shoe after out goal of +20 rewarded us THIS TIME with 8 extra units.

Our highest bet of 5 occurs at play 44 making this a perfect shoe.

But now let's play it with the 345 loop as we SHOULD have been doing in the first place. NOW we are playing the game. We are playing some very exciting Baccarat. We are ALIVE!

All our bets are in exactly the same place but now we start the shoe with a 3 bet at play #2 on B and our second bet is 3 on P. There is no mandatory anything in the 345 loop. All winning bets either return to 3 or stay at 3. Our highest bet ever is 5. If we lose the 5 we go back to 3. VERY SIMPLE.

OK, now we hit our goal of +30 already at play #25! VERY early plus again we are in a ZZ run at play 25. Here we virtually MUST go on. Why are we so eager to go on with the 345 loop but not with U1D2 M2??? Because the 345 loop is actually less risky than U1D2 M2. OK, We hit +40 already at play #30, a very logical quit point but if we decide to go on we hit +40 for the second time at play #39 our MANDATORY quit point.

OK lets look at our performance statistics.

If we quit the first time we hit +40 we have bet a total of 98 chips to score +40.

Therefore our Player Advantage is 40/98 or 40.8%. I challenge anyone anywhere in the world to play better than THAT. Remember card counters are going through all those headaches in an attempt to achieve a one half of 1% P.A. We just achieved more than 40 % W/O even breathing hard. That is 80 times what a card counter is striving to achieve but never quite gets there. GeeZ, and they make movies about those boring idiots. They SHOULD be making movies about US. Now that would make an exciting movie!

Here's another fantastic point. If we play the 345 loop all the way to play *61 we actually lose our entire progression TWICE but still score +32 W/O ever coming even close to going in the negative. How many players can lose there entire prog twice and still be way ahead in the game. I'll tell you. NOBODY can. That should give you an idea of the power and conservity of the 345 loop in the right shoe.

Now, I'd like to use your shoe to make one more important point:

The 345 loop is a relatively recent development of mine. (Within the last few months). Before that we had two aggressive progs: the U1D2 B2 M3 and the U1D1 B2 M3 prog, our most aggressive prog.

B2 means base at 2 units instead of 1.

M3 means mandatory 3 instead of 2.

So I also played your shoe with both of these old progs:

The first one got to a high of only +36 at play 39 BUT it did this with a highest bet of SIX instead of 5. Pretty darn scary.

Yep, the other one finally got to +40 at play # 58 but it accomplished this with a terrifying high bet of 9 !

I have played both of these progs countless times in the casino and I know first hand just how scary they are. I'm very happy to drop these progs out of NOR. They are just too risky.

The 345 loop outperforms both of them by a mile and by comparison is so comfotable that you could fall asleep1 The 345 is as aggressive as we ever need get.

So why not a 456 ? Because there is a mathematical principle called "the point of diminishing returns". What this means in simple terms is when you try to increase the 345 you are actually going backwards.

The 345 loop, therefore, is our new official most aggressive progression and I'm very happy and very comfortable introducing it to you.

Now, I'll get Keith to post your shoe played both ways: U1D2 M2 and 345 loop. BTW, "loop" means return to base bet.

Edited April 21, 2011 by ECD

[ECD]

Please advise me and also on progression.... I always Flat bet.... but so far I still manage to win every time I visit the casino.

I'm going to advise you to continue flat betting for now until you have totally mastered the entire NOR Approach.

Breaking the flat bet barrier can be very nerve-wracking. I still remember vividly my first attempt at this in casino. I got to the 3 bet. I knew the math and my mind was willing but my hand was not. The dealer passed me by. I would have won the bet. This taught me a lesson for the rest of my life.

I'm hoping that spending so much time on your shoe example gives you and everyone a bit of a jump start on exactly how NOR works and why its so good.

Remember, I'll get those shoes posted.

Edited April 21, 2011 by ECD

[ECD]

Thanks ,

But besides the name i think there should a place where all the definations are explained.

Sorry because although I know the name but I am not sure about the definations , maybe a example will best illustrate each system.

Exactly right! I think that esp. now that we have so many "foreign" language students we need a major and highly complete Glossary of Terms somewhere within the NOR manual. No matter how good the system it is only as good as the student's ability to understand it and the teacher's ability to make them understand.

[ECD]

Here are the shoe posting instructions I sent to Keith if anyone else wants to give it a try.

Vinfong, you do nice shoe postings, hint, hint.

Post it in columns of 16 plays to match his graphic.

It goes in the System 40 Players thread.

Should probably also go in the NOR Q&A thread.

The shoe goes:

P11111211331

B1222111123

B312411121

B611132

Label the first way S40-3 U1D2 M2

And the 2nd way S40-3 345 loop

The first way starting at Play 2 your bets are:

B1 P2 B1 P2 B1 P2 P3 B1 P2 B1 B2 B3 P1 P2 P3

B1 P2 B1 B2 P1 P2 B1 B2 P1 B2 P1 B2 P1 P2 B1 B2

B3 P1 P2 P3 B1 P2 P3 B1 B2 B3 P4 P5 B3 P1 B2 B3

P1 P2 P3 B4 P2 P3 P4 B2 P1 B2 P1 P2 P3 End (I didn't play the last play) put in the score. Ends at +28 if you didn't screw it up

S40-3 345 loop Starting at Play 2

B3 P3 B3 P3 B3 P3 P4 B3 P3 B3 B4 B5 P3 P4 P5

B3 P3 B3 B4 P3 P4 B3 B4 P3 B3 P3 B3 P3 P4 B3 B4

B5 P3 P4 P5 B3 P3 P4 Stop there at +40

End it right there. Hit +40 the 2nd time but if you play it out you end at +32 at play 61.

Edited April 22, 2011 by ECD

[vinfong318]

Thanks for the Information. You have given me a clear picture about placing bets on S40., but I quite understand what is the meaning of -3, is it mean that if I kept betting opposite and the outcome is streak for 3 times , then I start to bet streak all the way until it turns around?

The Prog for U1D2M2 when do we end if the situation gets adverse, is it 5 units then we go back to 1 or D2 to 3 units..?

You are right the shoe before this one is also ran up to a O/R count of 8 then went back down to 5 and mingle around that region.....

[ECD]

Thanks for the Information. You have given me a clear picture about placing bets on S40., but I quite understand what is the meaning of -3, is it mean that if I kept betting opposite and the outcome is streak for 3 times , then I start to bet streak all the way until it turns around?

No, playing either S40 or OTB4L the NOR way we only stay OTR (on the run) (repeats) for ONE play. The reason is that the fact that we are playing either of these two systems means we are NOT seeing plentiful long runs. Otherwise we would be playing F. Note that your shoe had only two straight runs of 4+ (4 or more). Neither of them hurt us.

-3 means Mode 3 which means 3 losing bets before we attempt our single OTR bet.

-2 means Mode 2 which means 2 losing bets before we attempt our single OTR bet.

With S40 We determine the best mode to play by which we are seeing more, of 3s or 4+s.

If it's 3s we play Mode 3.

If it's 4+s we play Mode 2.

Your shoe had far more 3s than 4+s so I stayed in Mode 3 the entire shoe.

I only went OTR attempt 2 plays, 43 and 52.

Here's another way to remember:

Mode 3 beats 3s;

Mode 2 beats 4+s.

The Prog for U1D2M2 when do we end if the situation gets adverse, is it 5 units then we go back to 1 or D2 to 3 units..?

Usually 5 is our highest bet. When we lose a 5 we go back to 1. We might make an exception and go to 6 at a particularly good table where we are way ahead.

You are right the shoe before this one is also ran up to a O/R count of 8 then went back down to 5 and mingle around that region.....

That is perhaps the most important fact exposed here. My prediction came from years of experience. But usually when we are seeing + or - counts of 8 or more we are not just dealing with a biased shoe. We are usually dealing with a biased table, or a biased shoe color. Biased tables offer us our BEST opportunities. When you see a biased table you need to be thinking 345 loop. You need to be thinking EXPLOIT!

The professional player will get his fair share of +30 and +40 shoes just as we did here. Flat bettors will never see such opportunities. Nevertheless, YOU need to stick with flat betting for now. We will both know whan you are ready for progressive betting. Keep practicing.

Once your shoe is posted I'll do a play by play explaining every play. That is the fastest and best way to teach and to learn. It is really very simple once you get the rhythm of it down pat.

Edited April 22, 2011 by ECD

[ECD]

Whoops, I see I was wrong about what thread we are in here. We are already in the NOR Q&A thread. Too much work and not enough sleep. Keith is probably still looking for the right thread to post the shoes in. I'll call him.