nor NOR Questions & Answers by E. Clifton Davis and Various ECD Players March 11, 2011

[TomM]

Will do! I'm thinking an Implementation chapter, A Review chapter and a Playing Tips from Ellis chapter.

When all is said and done, I would like to be able to truthfully say that NOR is a Baccarat manual designed by the students themselves to be the utmost of student friendly or some such wording. I'm thinking that would surely make it unique.

When hard copy ready it will be in formal manual format with an Introduction, a Table of Contents and a Glossary of Terms.

I'm thinking this will be my last manual. Not getting any younger. I'd like to get my novel started: "The Player" by E. Clifton Davis. How I took Atlantic City. I'm thinking Nicholas Cage! Kenny Uston will be in it. - A bit part. It will be about the REAL WORLD of gambling. "21" and "Casino" suck, in my opinion.

I am all for the NOR manual compilation of baccarat strategies and wanted to cast a vote for a up-as-you-win segment.

I know (up as you win) is not as obviously prevalent as it was in the past but as you said sometimes you cannot see the forest for the trees at times when you are in the shoe. But in retrospect everyone sees that exploit opportunities still exist. I vote for adding some version of a up as you win. My favorite from the past was ladder betting with 3UC but obviously TB4L exploit could be a contender also.

It just seems to me a well balanced approach should address a up-as-you-win betting strategy and the most conservative of any that I ever saw was 3UC. Hey, but I am not the one that would have to tailor it to today's game or make it a little more universal... so just putting it out there as an opportunity.

I personally think that a comprehensive book on your play and what led you to taking on BJ and then Baccarat would be very insightful, especially to those newcomers that may be in the dark as to your experiences with the casinos. It is rare to get glimpses of someone that actually put together a successful strategy and then put it on the line and also went public with it. It is almost unheard of these days.

I think that Nickolas Cage would be a good casting. I’m sure he would like to get back to some real acting as in" Leaving Las Vegas" or "Raising Arizona" or a couple of other memorable flicks that seem to be escaping me in this moment but I read that Cage ended up with a lot a useless overpriced real estate that he got stuck with when the housing bubble burst and it led him down a road of accepting less than desirable roles just to forestall bankruptcy. His latest (I have no idea of it's merits) is titled probably the weirdest name for a movie for all time "Drive Angry".

It seems like the Nikolas cage of a decade ago is still paying for the bad real estate he bought via a financial advisor today... if what I read was accurate. But from past performances I believe he has the chops to pull off a movie version of "The Player". Besides Spacey has already done two flicks in this genre “21” and don't quote me but I think one I saw called "Casino Jack" which was pretty good IMO. Anyway that's my 2 cents for 8:00 am...ish on a Tuesday morning after a frustrating night tying to get online with Bph after there upgrade attempt.

I'll blow more wind about that later in the lounge if they continue to have the problems that I was experiencing last night.

Edited June 7, 2011 by TomM

[hawaiianal]

Will do! I'm thinking an Implementation chapter, A Review chapter and a Playing Tips from Ellis chapter.

When all is said and done, I would like to be able to truthfully say that NOR is a Baccarat manual designed by the students themselves to be the utmost of student friendly or some such wording. I'm thinking that would surely make it unique.

When hard copy ready it will be in formal manual format with an Introduction, a Table of Contents and a Glossary of Terms.

I'm thinking this will be my last manual. Not getting any younger. I'd like to get my novel started: "The Player" by E. Clifton Davis. How I took Atlantic City. I'm thinking Nicholas Cage! Kenny Uston will be in it. - A bit part. It will be about the REAL WORLD of gambling. "21" and "Casino" suck, in my opinion.

Ellis,

I have a question about money management.

Throughout my playing career in Las Vegas the issue about max money draw always comes up.

For instance, if you draw a total of $10,000 during any 24 hour period you're usually reminded that your max has been reached but I never completely understood what that meant.

Example: 1st buy in - $2,500.00 2nd buy in - $2,500.00 3rd buy in - $2,500.00 and 4th buy in - $2,500.00 total buy in $10,000.00

Win or lose they count your total buy in as $10,000.00.

The same holds true if you try to withdraw past $10.000.00 during a 24 hour period.

Back a few years while playing at the Flamingo, I was very fortunate to make $4,000.00 in one shoe followed by another $5,000.00 in the second shoe.

While cashing out, the cashier asked me for my ID and social security number. I was a bit surprised but had no choice if I wanted to get paid.

I walked next door to Harrahs' and won another $2,000.00 and when I cashed out I was told immediately I had to fill out an IRS form.

How do we get around those issues?

I watched foreign players draw $50,000.00 without even a blink of an eye from pit personnel.

Can't understand how their rules about max draw affects me and not the foreign player.

Your input is greatly needed.

Al

[Guest]

I am all for the NOR manual compilation of baccarat strategies and wanted to cast a vote for a up-as-you-win segment.

I know (up as you win) is not as obviously prevalent as it was in the past but as you said sometimes you cannot see the forest for the trees at times when you are in the shoe. But in retrospect everyone sees that exploit opportunities still exist. I vote for adding some version of a up as you win. My favorite from the past was ladder betting with 3UC but obviously TB4L exploit could be a contender also.

It just seems to me a well balanced approach should address a up-as-you-win betting strategy and the most conservative of any that I ever saw was 3UC. Hey, but I am not the one that would have to tailor it to today's game or make it a little more universal... so just putting it out there as an opportunity.

I personally think that a comprehensive book on your play and what led you to taking on BJ and then Baccarat would be very insightful, especially to those newcomers that may be in the dark as to your experiences with the casinos. It is rare to get glimpses of someone that actually put together a successful strategy and then put it on the line and also went public with it. It is almost unheard of these days.

I think that Nickolas Cage would be a good casting. I’m sure he would like to get back to some real acting as in" Leaving Las Vegas" or "Raising Arizona" or a couple of other memorable flicks that seem to be escaping me in this moment but I read that Cage ended up with a lot a useless overpriced real estate that he got stuck with when the housing bubble burst and it led him down a road of accepting less than desirable roles just to forestall bankruptcy. His latest (I have no idea of it's merits) is titled probably the weirdest name for a movie for all time "Drive Angry".

It seems like the Nikolas cage of a decade ago is still paying for the bad real estate he bought via a financial advisor today... if what I read was accurate. But from past performances I believe he has the chops to pull off a movie version of "The Player". Besides Spacey has already done two flicks in this genre “21” and don't quote me but I think one I saw called "Casino Jack" which was pretty good IMO. Anyway that's my 2 cents for 8:00 am...ish on a Tuesday morning after a frustrating night tying to get online with Bph after there upgrade attempt.

I'll blow more wind about that later in the lounge if they continue to have the problems that I was experiencing last night.

Right Tom! No Approach manual is complete W/O a word about up as you win betting. Most of our newer players have not likely seen these wind fall situations yet but they still happen and often when you least expect it.

The big thing about up as you win betting is knowing when to deploy it or, more importantly, when not to.

Our X-member, Sheri Pelzman, still holds our units per shoe record at 425 units in one shoe playing quarters with an up as you win fibonaci on repeats at a very streaky big bac table in Vegas. Some of you guys may know Sheri from her pattern recognition fame. - or misfortune.

I haven't mentioned it because I don't want new players going off half cocked thinking it's the answer to everything. It's a tool like many others we have and needs to be deployed ONLY under the right conditions.

I taught the ladder system at a side meeting we had in Vegas during our last group trip there. Maverick ignored all caution and went right out and played it right after the meeting with no regard for conditions. THAT didn't end well!

But there IS a time and place for up as you win betting. This occurs far more often today in shoe segments than in entire shoes. For instance, suppose you find yourself at a very streaky table of runs following runs and you have already deployed the 345 but you find yourself mostly flat betting at 3 on long runs. You can go right up the fib. 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 100. Had you been playing black, a ten in a row already puts you flat betting at table max. (at a $10,000 table) And there is virtually no risk because you are always betting no more than you just won in the last two hands. You are actually onlly risking any of your money on the first 2 bets. After two wins in a row there is NO risk. When you lose, you simply back up two bets and go from there.

For instance suppose you get a 7 in a row followed by a 6 in a row and you are betting repeats up as you win. Your betts starting at play 2 of the 7 would be 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 21 34 55 89 100. You are up 328 units but you only risked 3 units, then 2 units, total! The rest was THEIR money. But NOW it's YOUR money!

Sure, I think it's worth mention in the manual. I just don't want you playing this way all the time. But we will all find ourselves in a super streak situation sooner or later. Some will take advantage and become famous. Some won't! But it's always good to know how IF you ONLY deploy this trick when the situation warrants it. And, of course, it's not just super streak. You can do the same thing in super chop! We've all had shoes with no 3 or mores in the first column - sometimes the first two columns! Suppose you had been betting the fibonaci on opposites up one on a win, down 2 on a loss! Yep, instant fame!

Edited June 9, 2011 by Guest

[Guest]

Ellis,

I have a question about money management.

Throughout my playing career in Las Vegas the issue about max money draw always comes up.

For instance, if you draw a total of $10,000 during any 24 hour period you're usually reminded that your max has been reached but I never completely understood what that meant.

Example: 1st buy in - $2,500.00 2nd buy in - $2,500.00 3rd buy in - $2,500.00 and 4th buy in - $2,500.00 total buy in $10,000.00

Win or lose they count your total buy in as $10,000.00.

The same holds true if you try to withdraw past $10.000.00 during a 24 hour period.

Back a few years while playing at the Flamingo, I was very fortunate to make $4,000.00 in one shoe followed by another $5,000.00 in the second shoe.

While cashing out, the cashier asked me for my ID and social security number. I was a bit surprised but had no choice if I wanted to get paid.

I walked next door to Harrahs' and won another $2,000.00 and when I cashed out I was told immediately I had to fill out an IRS form.

How do we get around those issues?

I watched foreign players draw $50,000.00 without even a blink of an eye from pit personnel.

Can't understand how their rules about max draw affects me and not the foreign player.

Your input is greatly needed.

Al

That's a little scary Al! You must be playing on markers. I never do. When you play on markers there is an intercasino tracking system the casinos use mainly to avoid a player taking out markers at multiple casinos, then cashing in and skipping town like one infamous Saratoga Springs, NY player did. He got away with it but he's going to have to be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. Those casino guys just can't take a joke.

Best way to avoid all this is simply don't take out markers. But then you have the problem of carrying large sums of cash on you. So you need to take safety precautions.

This way has always worked for me because I never go to the cage with more than $10,000 at a time. They've never kept track of multiple cage trips with me but I don't go twice in the same work shift and I often use a friend to cash me in - a good friend! This may all be because I never take out markers. I've never heard of the casino activity you refer to except for players who take out markers.

Once in a while, it's unavoidable when you win more than $10,000 in a sitting and they send a guard to take your chip tray to the window. Just be sure you get a tax receipt!

But having multiple casinos keeping track of your winnings? I'm thinking it is only because you are using markers. Right? If not, then they are singling you out. They sometimes do this with consistent winners. BTW, taxable winnings used to be at $8000 but it is at $10,000 now.

Theoretically you are supposed to pay taxes on all winnings after subtracting all losses. But the IRS is pretty good about using your own records if you catch my drift.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Guest

[Sir Donald]

Ellis, the previous questions from Tom & Al were quite interesting, and your answers most informative.

I'll be the first in line when you publish and release your book. BTW, the cast in Ocean's 11 ( Clooney, Pitt & Damon ) might be a good choice for your forthcoming movie. You and Keith could even make a cameo appearance.

Moving on to some serious topics........How would you rank the relative strength of the 3 NOR systems, strictly from their capability to win the most shoes?

Which of the 3 NOR systems will we likely be playing the most.....and why? Thanks.

Don

[hawaiianal]

That's a little scary Al! You must be playing on markers. I never do. When you play on markers there is an intercasino tracking system the casinos use mainly to avoid a player taking out markers at multiple casinos, then cashing in and skipping town like one infamous Saratoga Springs, NY player did. He got away with it but he's going to have to be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. Those casino guys just can't take a joke.

Best way to avoid all this is simply don't take out markers. But then you have the problem of carrying large sums of cash on you. So you need to take safety precautions.

This way has always worked for me because I never go to the cage with more than $10,000 at a time. They've never kept track of multiple cage trips with me but I don't go twice in the same work shift and I often use a friend to cash me in - a good friend! This may all be because I never take out markers. I've never heard of the casino activity you refer to except for players who take out markers.

Once in a while, it's unavoidable when you win more than $10,000 in a sitting and they send a guard to take your chip tray to the window. Just be sure you get a tax receipt!

But having multiple casinos keeping track of your winnings? I'm thinking it is only because you are using markers. Right? If not, then they are singling you out. They sometimes do this with consistent winners. BTW, taxable winnings used to be at $8000 but it is at $10,000 now.

Theoretically you are supposed to pay taxes on all winnings after subtracting all losses. But the IRS is pretty good about using your own records if you catch my drift.

Ellis,

Actually, I don't use markers at all.

But I frequent the MGM group and they definitely have a tracking system of some sort. I've had my share of good trips and bad trips, more bad than good BUT like you mentioned in a previous post; we as players come to the table with multiple tools to work with.

ON all my prior trips I had only ONE tool and that damn thing got broken a long long time ago.

I guess the only way to avoid the $10,000.00 limit is to do as you mentioned; have a good friend cash out some of my chips, and move around to different casinos at various shifts.

I'll be in Vegas on the 21st of June through the 23rd and I'll be using the NOR Approach for the first time.

I'll report back on my trip results.

Oh BTW yes, the IRS is very good about the tax implications; haven't had any problems with them.

Thanks,

Al

[hawaiianal]

Ellis, the previous questions from Tom & Al were quite interesting, and your answers most informative.

I'll be the first in line when you publish and release your book. BTW, the cast in Ocean's 11 ( Clooney, Pitt & Damon ) might be a good choice for your forthcoming movie. You and Keith could even make a cameo appearance.

Moving on to some serious topics........How would you rank the relative strength of the 3 NOR systems, strictly from their capability to win the most shoes?

Which of the 3 NOR systems will we likely be playing the most.....and why? Thanks.

Don

Don,

From my experience with the 3 NOR Systems, practicing at home for the past 4 months, they each have unique qualities that I'm about to put to real time play in a couple of weeks.

As I mentioned in my previous post to Ellis, being a Bac Player for some years, I had only one way playing Bac.

When the conditions were right in any shoe that ONLY system I used made a ton of money but more and more over the years I've seen the changes like Ellis mentioned and I've had to take a break (over 2 years) to find alternatives to getting back to winning again - that alternatives are the 3 NOR Systems.

Good luck to you.

Al

[Guest]

Ellis, the previous questions from Tom & Al were quite interesting, and your answers most informative.

I'll be the first in line when you publish and release your book. BTW, the cast in Ocean's 11 ( Clooney, Pitt & Damon ) might be a good choice for your forthcoming movie. You and Keith could even make a cameo appearance.

Moving on to some serious topics........How would you rank the relative strength of the 3 NOR systems, strictly from their capability to win the most shoes?

Which of the 3 NOR systems will we likely be playing the most.....and why? Thanks.

Don

First, after many years of playing every conceivable system in tens of thousands of shoes I can tell you for an absolute fact that the 3 NOR systems are the very best in the world for the 3 jobs we have assigned them.

While S40 has had wide public acclaim and is considered by many experts as the best there is, I don't completely agree with this. But I agree that it is the best for THEM given what they have to work with.

S40 is, in fact, a tool as is F and OTB4L. Tools are great WHEN you use the right tool for the right job.

Baccarat is about being in the right place at the right time with the right system. None of the 3 can do this well independantly. But together, and with a knowledgeable player, they are the ultimate Baccarat force. They fulfill the military adage: "always go in with an overwhelming force".

I don't think I can single out any one of them as better or more often used than the other two. On a given day, yes, but overall, no.

I suspect we will find ourselves playing OTB4L the most at the more experienced casinos. But this is only because THEIR favorite shoe type is OTB4L and their presentation is designed to produce this shoe type most often. Good for them because this is great for us. We don't really have a favorite. But OTB4L, overall, is the least known and therefore the least played of all the systems I have designed. So this all works out perfectly for us. Let them do whatever they want. Their antics work in our favor. Anything that produces consistency works in our favor no matter what that consistency is.

Casinos can ALWAYS be depended upon to screw with the shuffle and card prep. These efforts tripled their profits in BJ and quintupled their profits in Bac. They not only feel justified, they consider it their job. Shuffle technology is their proven and historical path to profits. And, they are motivated by only one thing - profits. We are simply using their own shuffle technology against them. Kinda neat when you think about it.

You know all those TV programs you've seen about player cheating? I'll bet you have never seen one about casino cheating have you? Yet I'm guessing from experience in both games that some 90% of the cheating going on in casinos is committed by the casinos themselves. But players don't make TV programs, do they.

These 3 systems: Singularly they are good but together they are great!

Edited June 9, 2011 by Guest

[vinfong318]

Dear Ellis,

I try playing even bet at the casino.... I found that without progression I cannot win much...

With s40 sometimes i only win 3 to 5 chips.....

Otb4l sometimes gives me 8 chips to win....

using U1D2M2 is disasterous when the shoe was against me... I loss 14 chips (2,3,4,5) and it is very hard to cover back when i move back to 2 chips.....

Is there any other method is better than flat bet but less risk than the progression as I just mention..

Thanks.

[Guest]

Dear Ellis,

I try playing even bet at the casino.... I found that without progression I cannot win much...

With s40 sometimes i only win 3 to 5 chips.....

Otb4l sometimes gives me 8 chips to win....

using U1D2M2 is disasterous when the shoe was against me... I loss 14 chips (2,3,4,5) and it is very hard to cover back when i move back to 2 chips.....

Is there any other method is better than flat bet but less risk than the progression as I just mention..

Thanks.

Right! U1D2 M2 is a good net bet prog but should NOT be used with NOR. See Net betting keeps your bets low so you can bet U1D2 M2 with far less risk. But NOR always bets single side regardless of which system you are playing.

You need to review the betting chapter in the NOR manual.

Always flat bet at 1 until you see that the system and mode you have selected is giving you a 50% hit rate or better. (you are winning half your bets or more.)

Then move up to a 1234 prog.

Then if your hit rate on your 1 and 2 bets is high move up to a 234, then a 345.

On the other hand, if you can't get your hit rate up to 50%+ no matter what system or mode you play, get out. Nothing says you MUST go all the way down to -8.

BTW, a 345 usually makes a lot more than the U1D2M2 anyway and your risk is less.

[TomM]

Right Tom! No Approach manual is complete W/O a word about up as you win betting. Most of our newer players have not likely seen these wind fall situations yet but they still happen and often when you least expect it.

The big thing about up as you win betting is knowing when to deploy it or, more importantly, when not to.

Our X-member, Sheri Pelzman, still holds our units per shoe record at 425 units in one shoe playing quarters with an up as you win fibonaci on repeats at a very streaky big bac table in Vegas. Some of you guys may know Sheri from her pattern recognition fame. - or misfortune.

I haven't mentioned it because I don't want new players going off half cocked thinking it's the answer to everything. It's a tool like many others we have and needs to be deployed ONLY under the right conditions.

I taught the ladder system at a side meeting we had in Vegas during our last group trip there. Maverick ignored all caution and went right out and played it right after the meeting with no regard for conditions. THAT didn't end well!

But there IS a time and place for up as you win betting. This occurs far more often today in shoe segments than in entire shoes. For instance, suppose you find yourself at a very streaky table of runs following runs and you have already deployed the 345 but you find yourself mostly flat betting at 3 on long runs. You can go right up the fib. 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 100. Had you been playing black, a ten in a row already puts you flat betting at table max. (at a $10,000 table) And there is virtually no risk because you are always betting no more than you just won in the last two hands. You are actually onlly risking any of your money on the first 2 bets. After two wins in a row there is NO risk. When you lose, you simply back up two bets and go from there.

For instance suppose you get a 7 in a row followed by a 6 in a row and you are betting repeats up as you win. Your betts starting at play 2 of the 7 would be 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 21 34 55 89 100. You are up 328 units but you only risked 3 units, then 2 units, total! The rest was THEIR money. But NOW it's YOUR money!

Sure, I think it's worth mention in the manual. I just don't want you playing this way all the time. But we will all find ourselves in a super streak situation sooner or later. Some will take advantage and become famous. Some won't! But it's always good to know how IF you ONLY deploy this trick when the situation warrants it. And, of course, it's not just super streak. You can do the same thing in super chop! We've all had shoes with no 3 or mores in the first column - sometimes the first two columns! Suppose you had been betting the fibonaci on opposites up one on a win, down 2 on a loss! Yep, instant fame!

Ellis,

Thanks for the detailed answer on up as up win betting The example 6 followed by a 7 I used to call a cross over fib. I don't know If I read that somewhere or made it up but used it occasionally.

I agree with you about up as you win opportunities being very spotty these days with only a rare bird lasting an entire shoe.

What made me think of 3UC was I have been scanning in any shoes of interest and sending them to my son to check out. On one of them I had apparently slipped into the 1,2,3/ 2,4,6/ 4,8,12 to deal with some 3's but he was unfamiliar with 3UC so I scanned it in and sent it to him clearing that up.

I used to have a two or three variations (slight tweaks to that) that I used for maybe 8 or 9 months. I played it very tight running a 3 unit stop loss per mode. So max drawdown per shoe was -6. If I lost the 6 units I just used everything that I knew to regain the chips and try again next shoe. I had many shoes that ended in the 100's and one I hit over three but going for the next ladder bet hit the movable stop loss and ended under 300 units.

I pondered adding a up as you win to skor/ks just to break the monotony of flat betting 90% of the time but I thought adding 3UC would be mentally taxing within a system that already was pretty intense. So at the very end of that I decided to toss the conservative TB4L exploit system fromm that manual to deal with shoes that weren't producing with skor/Otb4l. When skor was going nowhere and you were having to do constant bet reversals than it was a good time to take a shot a tb4l exploit.

What made me think of 3UC and NOR is the two modes it ran with to deal with chop and streak exploit. I always thought that system was under rated and needed updating to make it more viable today. I would have to dig through piles of paper or possibly micro cassette tapes to refresh my mind on the variables that I used with that system. I can't seem to pull them up from the few remaining brain cells. Anyway the variations to that may have had to do with specific casinos as it was usual for me to tailor things for certain casinos. time of day etc.

But in mentioning 3UC one of our old time members PM'ed me asking where on the forum it is. I responded that it came from an manual written in the early 90's. Being that I already had it scanned in I told them if they forward the PM to you and you PM me or say so in the forum to send it then I would but I really don't want to get into distributing that material on several levels. With my son and I, I know where the buck stops and with NOR coming along so well it might prove to be a distraction.

So I thought about it some more and thought if you don't have a copy to reference I can send it to you and you can handle it anyway you see fit. I just don't want to make a call on it. But if you think it could be updated then maybe it could be included as an option. It is the only purely up -as-you -win system that I have ever seen that deals with progressively betting up in both choppy and streaky or combined shoes..

It is so safe to play that I cannot see how anyone could get hurt applying it unless they were to ignore the obvious NOR signals and look to knock everything out of the park with 3UC. It just doesn't work that way with that system. So it could be a distraction in that respect. But if you don't have a copy I already have it scanned so it would be nothing to send it to you. Then I can wash my hands of it so to speak.

Besides you've got nothing better too do right ? LOL

Edited June 12, 2011 by TomM
spelling

[johnnycs1]

IS THE "NOR" MANUAL FINALIZED ???

if so where is it to be found...........

THANKS !!

[Guest]

IS THE "NOR" MANUAL FINALIZED ???

if so where is it to be found...........

THANKS !!

Hit Baccarat, Then System 40, then The NOR Approach. It's that whole thread. Keith is editing to prepare for hard copy. I still need to add a couple of requested chapters and The play by play sample shoes.

[johnnycs1]

Hit Baccarat, Then System 40, then The NOR Approach. It's that whole thread. Keith is editing to prepare for hard copy. I still need to add a couple of requested chapters and The play by play sample shoes.

OK....thank you young man !!....

GONNA BE NICE WHEN IT'S IN HARD COPY ALONG WITH PLAY/PLAY SHOES !!:

johnny/abq

[Guest]

Ellis,

Thanks for the detailed answer on up as up win betting The example 6 followed by a 7 I used to call a cross over fib. I don't know If I read that somewhere or made it up but used it occasionally.

I agree with you about up as you win opportunities being very spotty these days with only a rare bird lasting an entire shoe.

What made me think of 3UC was I have been scanning in any shoes of interest and sending them to my son to check out. On one of them I had apparently slipped into the 1,2,3/ 2,4,6/ 4,8,12 to deal with some 3's but he was unfamiliar with 3UC so I scanned it in and sent it to him clearing that up.

I used to have a two or three variations (slight tweaks to that) that I used for maybe 8 or 9 months. I played it very tight running a 3 unit stop loss per mode. So max drawdown per shoe was -6. If I lost the 6 units I just used everything that I knew to regain the chips and try again next shoe. I had many shoes that ended in the 100's and one I hit over three but going for the next ladder bet hit the movable stop loss and ended under 300 units.

I pondered adding a up as you win to skor/ks just to break the monotony of flat betting 90% of the time but I thought adding 3UC would be mentally taxing within a system that already was pretty intense. So at the very end of that I decided to toss the conservative TB4L exploit system fromm that manual to deal with shoes that weren't producing with skor/Otb4l. When skor was going nowhere and you were having to do constant bet reversals than it was a good time to take a shot a tb4l exploit.

What made me think of 3UC and NOR is the two modes it ran with to deal with chop and streak exploit. I always thought that system was under rated and needed updating to make it more viable today. I would have to dig through piles of paper or possibly micro cassette tapes to refresh my mind on the variables that I used with that system. I can't seem to pull them up from the few remaining brain cells. Anyway the variations to that may have had to do with specific casinos as it was usual for me to tailor things for certain casinos. time of day etc.

But in mentioning 3UC one of our old time members PM'ed me asking where on the forum it is. I responded that it came from an manual written in the early 90's. Being that I already had it scanned in I told them if they forward the PM to you and you PM me or say so in the forum to send it then I would but I really don't want to get into distributing that material on several levels. With my son and I, I know where the buck stops and with NOR coming along so well it might prove to be a distraction.

So I thought about it some more and thought if you don't have a copy to reference I can send it to you and you can handle it anyway you see fit. I just don't want to make a call on it. But if you think it could be updated then maybe it could be included as an option. It is the only purely up -as-you -win system that I have ever seen that deals with progressively betting up in both choppy and streaky or combined shoes..

It is so safe to play that I cannot see how anyone could get hurt applying it unless they were to ignore the obvious NOR signals and look to knock everything out of the park with 3UC. It just doesn't work that way with that system. So it could be a distraction in that respect. But if you don't have a copy I already have it scanned so it would be nothing to send it to you. Then I can wash my hands of it so to speak.

Besides you've got nothing better too do right ? LOL

Tom, all I did with the 6 followed by a 7 is continue betting repeats starting at 3 on the 2nd circle of the 6 and following the fib up as you win from there. When I lost below the 6 I went down 2 rungs on the fib and continued it to 100 which would be the table max.

That's a pretty safe way to play a fib up as you win and usually works much better than starting all over with every loss IF the shoe is streaky enough.

What I was trying to point out is that you don't need 20 in a rows to play a fib up as you win. 3 or mores do nicely as long as you have enough of them. But even if it turns out you don't have enough runs, you don't suffer a big loss. The method will just keep bouncing you back to a 1 bet.

I tried this one trip at the Vegas Rio. The shoes were streaky but only slightly streaky. I won every shoe even though the longest run I got all day was a 7. Hey, it's a good trick to know when you find yourself at a consistently streaky table even if you aren't seeing long runs.

Just don't try using this method exclusively. First, learn NOR. But sooner or later you will find yourself at a CONSISTENTLY streaky table where every shoe is hitting about a -10 OR count. Yep, now's the time!

I have litterally seen this situation at least a thousand times. Yet, some still insist the cards are random. They THINK they are experienced but actually far from it.

OH, and BTW, yes, I would like to have a copy of your 3UC manual. You'd think I would still have one but I don't.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Guest

[TomM]

Tom, all I did with the 6 followed by a 7 is continue betting repeats starting at 3 on the 2nd circle of the 6 and following the fib up as you win from there. When I lost below the 6 I went down 2 rungs on the fib and continued it to 100 which would be the table max.

That's a pretty safe way to play a fib up as you win and usually works much better than starting all over with every loss IF the shoe is streaky enough.

What I was trying to point out is that you don't need 20 in a rows to play a fib up as you win. 3 or mores do nicely as long as you have enough of them. But even if it turns out you don't have enough runs, you don't suffer a big loss. The method will just keep bouncing you back to a 1 bet.

I tried this one trip at the Vegas Rio. The shoes were streaky but only slightly streaky. I won every shoe even though the longest run I got all day was a 7. Hey, it's a good trick to know when you find yourself at a consistently streaky table even if you aren't seeing long runs.

Just don't try using this method exclusively. First, learn NOR. But sooner or later you will find yourself at a CONSISTENTLY streaky table where every shoe is hitting about a -10 OR count. Yep, now's the time!

I have litterally seen this situation at least a thousand times. Yet, some still insist the cards are random. They THINK they are experienced but actually far from it.

OH, and BTW, yes, I would like to have a copy of your 3UC manual. You'd think I would still have one but I don't.

I just sent the scanned 3UC stuff and the TB4L exploit from that manual. It wouldn't be a bad idea to scan the rest of that manual in on a rainy day. It's not getting any younger or whiter. I sent it to the 858 hotmail email address and it seemed to have went through so check that box out. Tom

[chanuttara]

What would be the best mode to play this part shoe in it was from the start of shoe,

B61111213211

B315211212

The 6 bank would put you in F but from play 11 to 25 it hits (0)7 times, and then the count goes back down to -4 near the end of shoe, so would it be best to change to OTB4L or stay F right through.

[Guest]

What would be the best mode to play this part shoe in it was from the start of shoe,

B61111213211

B315211212

The 6 bank would put you in F but from play 11 to 25 it hits (0)7 times, and then the count goes back down to -4 near the end of shoe, so would it be best to change to OTB4L or stay F right through.

Well first, chanuttara, this is perhaps the best NOR question thus far and clearly demonstrates that you are definitely getting this stuff down pat.

Correct, I would be on F at play 4, confirmed at plays 5,6 and 8. I would be in Mode 3 at play 13 due to the very strong Bank thus far. At play 8 I win my 2 and switch to the 234. That first 2 in a row confirms Mode 3 but just in time to lose my 234 at play 16 putting me in Mode 2. I lose my 2 OTR attempt at play 17 so I switch right back and win my 3 and switch to the 345. This runs the score up to +19 at play 29. (BTW, I HATE a +19 score and often get out of the shoe at that point). Sure enough, I lose my 5 playing Mode 2 at play 32 so I switch back to Bank and finish at +15.

The trouble with this shoe is that you have perfectly interchanging 2s and 3s on the weak side which keeps you in the wrong mode. As I pointed out in the manual, this is the ONE thing that can go wrong playing F in a streaky shoe. But we survive it rather well thanks to the max bet of 4 in the 234 and the max bet of 5 in the 345.

Yes, I would have CONSIDERED switching to OTB4L near the end and OTB4L 3 happens to do nicely at the end of the shoe but that was really just luck. The starting straight 6 immediately followed by a ZZ 6 in the first col and then the enterchanging 4 and 5 straight runs in the 2nd col are REAL bad signs for OTB4L. So I would have stuck with F just as you probably did.

The F nemesis is interchanging 2s and 3s on the weak side.

But the OTB4L nemesis is interchanging 4s and 5s.

While switching to OTB4L happens to work, according to the nemesis of each, it would be like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

It is very important knowing what each system likes but it is just as important to know what each system hates.

But note that we do just fine even though we keep hitting the F nemesis perfectly. Such is the power of F !

[Guest]

I just sent the scanned 3UC stuff and the TB4L exploit from that manual. It wouldn't be a bad idea to scan the rest of that manual in on a rainy day. It's not getting any younger or whiter. I sent it to the 858 hotmail email address and it seemed to have went through so check that box out. Tom

Thanks Tom! Could you please do me one more favor. Post the 3UC manual in the PRIVATE forum under a thread entitled "The 3 UC manual from 199?" - whatever the actual manual was dated.

I'd like these new squirts to know for sure that I didn't just get off the turnip boat like these guys that keep cropping up on the internet. Geez, last week they couldn't SPELL Baccarat.

BTW guys "UC" stands for ultra conservative. This will give you an idea of what I thought was ultra conservative back in those days. NOW, we never bet more than 5 units and never go below -8 !

And one more thing since Tom brought up up as you win betting:

When we were net betting the U1D2 M2 one trick we deployed is that when one side suspended betting, the other side could flat bet at 222 until it lost, THEN GO Back TO 1 instead of betting 1212. This worked extremely well.

We can do the same thing with the 345. Instead of betting a 3333 down a run, we can bet 5555 but then when we lose the 5 we go back to 3. This can work out more conservative than betting a 3333 down a run and then going to 4 when we lose. It gives us 3 chances to win our next prog instead of only 2. Get it?

[Plasia87]

Correct, I would be on F at play 4, confirmed at plays 5,6 and 8. I would be in Mode 3 at play 13 due to the very strong Bank thus far. At play 8 I win my 2 and switch to the 234. That first 2 in a row confirms Mode 3 but just in time to lose my 234 at play 16 putting me in Mode 2. I lose my 2 OTR attempt at play 17 so I switch right back and win my 3 and switch to the 345. This runs the score up to +19 at play 29. (BTW, I HATE a +19 score and often get out of the shoe at that point). Sure enough, I lose my 5 playing Mode 2 at play 32 so I switch back to Bank and finish at +15.

2 questions,

1) At play 8 why do you win your 2 bet? Play 7 was player, so wouldn't you beat repeat? (So a 2 bet on player on play 8.)

2) When you say mode 3, you mean F3 right? Thought F2/3 didn't have modes..

Thanks

[chanuttara]

Hi Plasia

As it was my shoe that I posted I thought I would try and answer as for question 1 I'm sure your playing it as OTB4L so that's why you think it should be player but at the start of shoe with the 6 banks it put you in F2-3 so after losing hand 7 to a player you are in F so bet down on banker and win the 2.

From what I've read so far you are in mode 2 or 3 when using F when you have more 2s on the weak side use F3 or mode 3 and when you have more 3s than 2s on the weak side use F2 or mode 2.

I'm sure someone will be able to answer this a lot better with time this is only from my understanding of the rules.

Thanks Gary

[TomM]

Thanks Tom! Could you please do me one more favor. Post the 3UC manual in the PRIVATE forum under a thread entitled "The 3 UC manual from 199?" - whatever the actual manual was dated.

I'd like these new squirts to know for sure that I didn't just get off the turnip boat like these guys that keep cropping up on the internet. Geez, last week they couldn't SPELL Baccarat.

BTW guys "UC" stands for ultra conservative. This will give you an idea of what I thought was ultra conservative back in those days. NOW, we never bet more than 5 units and never go below -8 !

And one more thing since Tom brought up up as you win betting:

When we were net betting the U1D2 M2 one trick we deployed is that when one side suspended betting, the other side could flat bet at 222 until it lost, THEN GO Back TO 1 instead of betting 1212. This worked extremely well.

We can do the same thing with the 345. Instead of betting a 3333 down a run, we can bet 5555 but then when we lose the 5 we go back to 3. This can work out more conservative than betting a 3333 down a run and then going to 4 when we lose. It gives us 3 chances to win our next prog instead of only 2. Get it?

Sure I can upload it to a thread after I resize it for the forum. I think there is a limit of about 300 kb per pic on this site so you won't be able to blow it up to see it like in the 1 mb images I send you but should be good enough. By the way that particular edition has a copy write on it on the front cover of 1994, but I think the original was written a couple years earlier. If that is the case this edition may have some revisions from the original but I would not know as I have never seen the earlier version. As far as I know even Keith could not post a file as large as the ones I sent you but I am often wrong on some computer stuff. You may just run that by Keith and if he can upload it to a most optimal size that would work otherwise I will just resize like this cover sheet I am attaching. In any case I got the 1994 edition for a bargain price and a lot of the stuff was still relevant in sleepy little Tahoe even though I played versions all over Nevada back then mostly hand shuffled.

P.S. You know I betcha there is a groovy image editing program that could make the pages whiter and probably erase all my hi-lighter. These computer image editing programs can damn near do everything these days even though I keep it pretty basic for my stuff.

Edited June 15, 2011 by TomM

[Plasia87]

Ellis how would you tackle this shoe?

P11131256

B21212123111111

P122122123211

B2

I started with s40 then switched to F after the 5. The OR count has big excursions throughout which indicates F and I hit +15 at the end of column 3. However, if i stayed s40 throughout this shoe I hit the +30's in the third column. Would you have stayed s40 after the 5 and 8 in the first column (for the 8 it continues in the 2nd column). If so why? why not?

Thanks

PS - Thanks Garry for responding to my question. I actually wasn't following the rules for F so I had to go back and check them again!

[Guest]

Ellis how would you tackle this shoe?

P11131256

B21212123111111

P122122123211

B2

I started with s40 then switched to F after the 5. The OR count has big excursions throughout which indicates F and I hit +15 at the end of column 3. However, if i stayed s40 throughout this shoe I hit the +30's in the third column. Would you have stayed s40 after the 5 and 8 in the first column (for the 8 it continues in the 2nd column). If so why? why not?

Thanks

PS - Thanks Garry for responding to my question. I actually wasn't following the rules for F so I had to go back and check them again!

Wow, we are getting some really good questions now! Plasia, I can certainly see why you would switch to F after seeing a back to back 5,6 with a count reversal right in the middle of it. That is a BIG temptation and it turns out OK. But your shoe gives me a good chance to point out some of the finer points.

Remember that I said to look at switching systems as a bad thing overall because, in general, the more you switch the worse off you are.

Yes, you have a 5,6 late in the first column that points to F, but you also have a perfect S40-3 game going up to that point that rides right through the 5,6 perfectly because you win both of your single OTR 4 bets.

The PERFECT S40-3 shoe is a shoe with no 4s. You had no 4s up to that point and the shoe happened to stay that way to the end. Perfect S40-3.

I would have started with a 1234 prog and the early 3 would put me on S40-3. You could have gone down 2 and bet 2 units at plays 15 and 20 and done a little better but I didn't bother with that because my score was so low at that point.

But on the winning 2 at play 21 I switched to the safer 234 and on the winning 3 at play 23 I switched to the even safer 345.

You never lose a prog and hit your +40 already at play 51 where upon I would have quit.

But, had I chosen not to quit I end up at +43 at play 51 with a 4 bet due that could take me below the 40-50 decade so decade cash mgt makes me quit at play 61 with a plus 43. So my bravery (or stupidity if you prefer) made me an extra 3 units THIS TIME. But next time it's likely to cost me units.

Look, when you aren't betting more than 5, you are a little crazy to continue past +40. Get out and go to the cage. You just might be on your way to one of those $10,000 days! Hey, if you were playing black you are already up $4000 and you are at a great table. $10,000 days happen!

Keith, this is a great shoe to include in the play by plays in the NOR manual!

Plasia, I'm glad you got F figured out now! F is often our highest scoring system esp. if you can break through to the 345. Those streaky tables often stay that way all day! - Another way to have a $10,000 day!

Edited June 15, 2011 by Guest

[Plasia87]

Thanks for the explanation Ellis!

You say OTR for a single bet, so I'm guessing once you've made that bet you just wait for that streak to end then resume using s40 with whatever prog you were using?

Also, u say to use S40-3 (mode 3) but you have prog length of 4? (1234). You say in the NOR approach thread that 'I'm calling the two S40 modes 2 and 3 to correspond to the number of losing bets you make before going OTR'. So how can you use a PL of 1234 instead of 123?

Still lots to take in, but I think I'll get there thanks to everyone's help

Edited June 15, 2011 by Plasia87