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Some of our Forum "antagonists" are idiots. There is a gold mine right in our back yard, and we cannot even see it. The potential money we can make far exceeds the cost required to learn and keep learning.

Hear, hear.

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I am having a hard time swallowing this thread. Really. We discuss betting $25 to $100 and some people $200 to $5000 per HAND, (less than 2 minutes) and someone mentions $10 bucks a month and people

Everyone please let’s have some respect, discipline and patients! Realize that Ellis and Keith can abandon us at will; they are the only ones left that can help us advance above the 95% of losers. W

CdnChamer
Hear, hear.

Frontal is right, it's starring you all in front of your faces if you just open up your mind to the 4D.

You all have the tools and education of the 4D to enable you to pull +5 units on most every shoe you will ever play. The 4D does not require table selection and works excellent with Pre-shuffled shoes. It makes NOR a thing of the past.

In fact I played to day fora +5 target and managed to get +6 on a 2 Hi bet system in less than 40 minutes of play. My shortest time played using the 4D to get +5 is under 7 minutes flat.

I'm a hit n run player and that's the best way to play.

You all have the right tools.. NOR & 4D, they go hand in hand.

Just look at it from a different angle and you will see what I'm talking about.

I am trying to help others and perhaps I have been outspoken at time because I have the balls to do so. So what if I say a few things here or there, but it's all truthful for IMHO, i felt Keith had jumped the gun and felt that I needed to point out how some members don't see things the same way as he does.

If the answer is a fee to help offset ongoing costs, so be it, I understand the forum needs financial maintenance and perhaps if Keith and / or Ellis followed their own plan and practice what they preach, BigVic was right... Put your system where your mouth is and show us the money.

Keith and Ellis could be celebrities and have late nite infomercials just like Tom Vu with bikini clad ladies and fancy limos and sports cars too boot. Think of the revenue that can be generated? ... The casinos will be scared...

But I do realize all this could stir Ellis heart up and he really does prefer and enjoy teaching to the fullest... Glad to see that they kissed and made up. Looks like Fido still has a place to sleep at night.

Now let's just move on and point Ellis and Keith's business plan in a positive direction.

4D LIVES ON....

CC

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How do we just move on.cc,you have lost all credibility.you have threaten this forum with lawsuits and its members.you shoved kramden over the top and pushed him to probably say things he didn't mean.talk about balls,balls,balls all your doing is egg throwing.balls my friend is that you make a public apology to kieth,ellis and this membership,and i hope they accept you back.i say for all your bullshit for the past couple of weeks,you should have the balls to leave and not come back!!hey do they have that show in canada call the 'apprentice' with donald trump' your fired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Quizzical1
Ouch. That seems to suggest that NOR and all the other systems haven't been winning consistently. Ah the good o'days back in 2010-2012 when NOR used to kick ass. I miss them.

I'm not suggesting that at all, BigVic. I know - and have been playing - NOR and limited 4D since I joined last Nov and yes, it does win. Where it runs into trouble is in shoes where the bias changes enough so that you can't catch it with your progression.

What I was referring to was something simple that can be played from hand 2 with NO regard to table selection or bias to achieve just +5 (what I ALWAYS hoped 4D would do but w/o the complex note taking).

Specifically, from post #57:

'The difference with preshuffled is you are playing fixed cards where you can't depend on biases nearly as much as you can with regular cards. Can you not understand that? The +5 doesn't give a hoot about biases. It doesn't function on biases. So when any bias changes, we don't care. And one thing is for sure with preshuffled - the bias will change. Hundreds of players played this system for years. No table selection. Start every shoe at play 2 BECAUSE you don't have to wait until you detect a bias. The system doesn't care how a shoe is arranged so it makes no difference what the shoe designer had in mind or what the shoe does. This isn't NOR at all. We are simply betting that the shoe no matter how it's arranged can't beat a 9 bet 3 piece progression before you make +5. When your goal is only +5 its as close to a sure thing as you can get.

Changes the game has gone through are a big thing if you are trying to make +30. But they make absolutely no difference to a 9 bet progression. You can't have big losses because about 90% of your bets are only 1s and 2s.

This system has been proven thousands of times. The only complaint is it doesn't make many units. That is why we dropped it. And that is exactly why we increase our unit at predetermined levels - whatever you are comfortable with.'....per Ellis

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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Frontal is right, it's starring you all in front of your faces if you just open up your mind to the 4D.

You all have the tools and education of the 4D to enable you to pull +5 units on most every shoe you will ever play. The 4D does not require table selection and works excellent with Pre-shuffled shoes. It makes NOR a thing of the past.

In fact I played to day fora +5 target and managed to get +6 on a 2 Hi bet system in less than 40 minutes of play. My shortest time played using the 4D to get +5 is under 7 minutes flat.

I'm a hit n run player and that's the best way to play.

You all have the right tools.. NOR & 4D, they go hand in hand.

Just look at it from a different angle and you will see what I'm talking about.

I am trying to help others and perhaps I have been outspoken at time because I have the balls to do so. So what if I say a few things here or there, but it's all truthful for IMHO, i felt Keith had jumped the gun and felt that I needed to point out how some members don't see things the same way as he does.

If the answer is a fee to help offset ongoing costs, so be it, I understand the forum needs financial maintenance and perhaps if Keith and / or Ellis followed their own plan and practice what they preach, BigVic was right... Put your system where your mouth is and show us the money.

Keith and Ellis could be celebrities and have late nite infomercials just like Tom Vu with bikini clad ladies and fancy limos and sports cars too boot. Think of the revenue that can be generated? ... The casinos will be scared...

But I do realize all this could stir Ellis heart up and he really does prefer and enjoy teaching to the fullest... Glad to see that they kissed and made up. Looks like Fido still has a place to sleep at night.

Now let's just move on and point Ellis and Keith's business plan in a positive direction.

4D LIVES ON....

CC

Well there is something to what you say. In fact I talked to John B. just last night about the 4D from a +5 perspective. He definitely wants it included in the +5 program. And maybe the S3D should be included also. Maybe I made too much of the impossibility of teaching the 4D to the guys who somehow showed up totally unprepared for the 4D siminar. That forum is always going to be there for NOR members who want to go that route.

But should everyone go with the 4D to make +5 in spite of its loose ends?

No, it is just too much for most to handle in a casino. Those complaints were valid and I have to go with someting ALL the members can handle. - Something you can play all day W/O getting tired.

SAP is also a great +5 system. But can you play it all day long? I couldn't.

But the 3 +5 systems are very simple and automatic. You always know your next bet.

They are all tried and true.

All the loose ends were tied up years ago.

You can play all day long as I often did. But I sure couldn't play SAP all day long and the 4D is even harder.

I have to go with what the majority of members can actually handle comfortably. I learned that lesson with SAP.

When it comes to systems choice, "ease of play" has to be one of our most important considerations.

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johnnycs1
Well there is something to what you say. In fact I talked to John B. just last night about the 4D from a +5 perspective. He definitely wants it included in the +5 program. And maybe the S3D should be included also. Maybe I made too much of the impossibility of teaching the 4D to the guys who somehow showed up totally unprepared for the 4D siminar. That forum is always going to be there for NOR members who want to go that route.

But should everyone go with the 4D to make +5 in spite of its loose ends?

No, it is just too much for most to handle in a casino. Those complaints were valid and I have to go with someting ALL the members can handle. - Something you can play all day W/O getting tired.

SAP is also a great +5 system. But can you play it all day long? I couldn't.

But the 3 +5 systems are very simple and automatic. You always know your next bet.

They are all tried and true.

All the loose ends were tied up years ago.

You can play all day long as I often did. But I sure couldn't play SAP all day long and the 4D is even harder.

I have to go with what the majority of members can actually handle comfortably. I learned that lesson with SAP.

When it comes to systems choice, "ease of play" has to be one of our most important considerations.

AND THOSE 3 + 5 SYSTEMS THAT ARE VERY SIMPLE AND AUTOMATIC , WHERE YOU ALWAYS KNOW YOUR NEXT BET, THAT ARE TRIED AND TRUE , ARE ??..........SHOULD BE ALL ANYONE NEEDS , WITH NO FURTHER DISCUSSION...... "END OF THE STORY" ! CORRECT ?

If they are really "Tried & True "..........they just need to be posted , with simply rules for each , with no further discussion , and not go full circle like the 4d and crash and burn and back to square one again, trying to figure out how to make at least a few units , consistently every time we sit down at a bac table ! That way, the pressure on Ellis and Keith is eased up and what the forum will have is grateful members and come away feeling their 600 bucks (think thats what I paid 4/5 years ago) was not a good investment , considering BTC current credibility status !

Thats my take ! And Ellis, do not profess , " That you are to old to play" ...what we confess with our mouths , is what we reap !! Thats not just mystical hogwash, its a proven universal law ! I am 77, don't look it, don't act it, don't dance like I am....and still running my handy-man repair business 7 days a week ! Up on roofs, under floors, under vehicles, etc etc etc.......better than when I worked on a hot/freezing flight line for a major airline (2 of them ) And still chase the girls....! lol..........Please post those 3 + 5er's.........and take a break and enjoy everyday !

johnny/albuquerque

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Quizzical1
AND THOSE 3 + 5 SYSTEMS THAT ARE VERY SIMPLE AND AUTOMATIC , WHERE YOU ALWAYS KNOW YOUR NEXT BET, THAT ARE TRIED AND TRUE , ARE ??..........SHOULD BE ALL ANYONE NEEDS , WITH NO FURTHER DISCUSSION...... "END OF THE STORY" ! CORRECT ?

If they are really "Tried & True "..........they just need to be posted , with simply rules for each , with no further discussion , and not go full circle like the 4d and crash and burn and back to square one again, trying to figure out how to make at least a few units , consistently every time we sit down at a bac table ! That way, the pressure on Ellis and Keith is eased up and what the forum will have is grateful members and come away feeling their 600 bucks (think thats what I paid 4/5 years ago) was not a good investment , considering BTC current credibility status !

Thats my take ! And Ellis, do not profess , " That you are to old to play" ...what we confess with our mouths , is what we reap !! Thats not just mystical hogwash, its a proven universal law ! I am 77, don't look it, don't act it, don't dance like I am....and still running my handy-man repair business 7 days a week ! Up on roofs, under floors, under vehicles, etc etc etc.......better than when I worked on a hot/freezing flight line for a major airline (2 of them ) And still chase the girls....! lol..........Please post those 3 + 5er's.........and take a break and enjoy everyday !

johnny/albuquerque

Exactly Johnny!

Let's get right to the heart of the matter now and work with the three tried-n-true +5 systems.

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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CdnChamer
nice post cc,glad to see your on the positive,that took guts

Thanks moneybac, but it still looks as tho' RUEBEL still has an axe to grind with his prejudice remarks about the Canadian members of the forum.

And... Just for the record... We Canadians "Do pay" for our medical but it is true that it is at a fractional cost of what most Americans pay. Our medical is paid via taxes and reasonable premiums paid by all. The only exception is that those who are on welfare are given a free ride. The quality of our medical is extremely good, but the downside is the wait time for certain treatments as a result of waiting lists.

I have an American friend that pays over $1000/month for his medical coverage whereas my personal medical coverage in Canada is $64/month. A far cry from what he pays. I even have extended medical that costs me approx $100/month. As our regular medical coverage does not include all medical expenses.

And RUEBEL wants to speak about credibility?, perhaps he should get his facts straight before opening his mouth with incorrect information.

FACT: the Hoover dam was completed under budget and ahead of schedule as the result of being lead by a Canadian who was paid a $300,000 bonus at the time. I would bet that most Americans don't realize how often our two nations help each other out so often.

We are great nations side by side together and I know that Americans are proud of their country and who they are, and I am too... Proud to be a Canadian and not even RUEBEL can take that away from me.

4D is only as complicated as you make it, actually it's very simple and I have plenty of time to write my card as per while in live-play.

Please people, think outside of the box and you too can find a path to beating pre-shuffled cards.

FACT: pre-shuffled cards do have a bias, the difference is that it is of a shorter duration than what you see with regular cards. For most, it looks as tho there is no bias at all, but 4D will prove that wrong because 4D exposes the bias whereas NOR won't.

I use the 4D method day-in day-out, and accumulate 5 or 6 units on a regular basis. I have also tested so many shoes from the forum that members have trouble with and 4D beats them all. aLL!

Pre-shuffled shoes are different, but are manageable and I plan to play my method on my trip to Macau in November with confidence.

4D Lives on.

CC

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Quizzical1
Glenn, from my notes, it looks like we have a great start on BaS40 and BaS40M1. So Ba OTB4L should get the ball rolling. Unless, I missed something.

Agreed blurti, assuming these are the methods Ellis has in mind (has anything changed the last few days?)

Now what is needed is to have it all consolidated in one area so all info can be easily accessed -the Manual if you will.

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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Agreed blurti, assuming these are the methods Ellis has in mind (has anything changed the last few days?)

Now what is needed is to have it all consolidated in one area so all info can be easily accessed -the Manual if you will.

Agreed! I understand that BaOTB4L is basically the same as BaS40 but with a OTB4L as the base instead of opposites, what I am waiting for is the tweeks that Ellis said were coming.

S4d - What to do About Runs Post #44 says...

Yes, several are asking me to do this already.

Right, It is OTB4L with the secodary prog applied to both ST and ZZ runs.

But unlike BaS40 which should only be played in shoes favoring a + OR count and therefore always bet the seconday prog Against straight runs.

BaOTB4L, like always, deals with BOTH ST and ZZ runs. AND it deals with BOTH + and - OR counts.

So it is significantly more complex than BaS40.

Jim, YOU would already know how to do this but I'll show you some tricks that help simplify it.

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I think it's been established there won't be any more teaching of +5 until it is figured out how we pay for a new forum on this new system. After all the discussion on this thread, I've come to understand that is necessary. I'm now looking forward to this happening so we can move on and those who want to learn it can. Despite my initial reservations to this, I'm fully on board now.

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nice post cc,glad to see your on the positive,that took guts

Thanks moneybac, but it still looks as tho' RUEBEL still has an axe to grind with his prejudice remarks about the Canadian members of the forum.

And... Just for the record... We Canadians "Do pay" for our medical but it is true that it is at a fractional cost of what most Americans pay. Our medical is paid via taxes and reasonable premiums paid by all. The only exception is that those who are on welfare are given a free ride. The quality of our medical is extremely good, but the downside is the wait time for certain treatments as a result of waiting lists.

I have an American friend that pays over $1000/month for his medical coverage whereas my personal medical coverage in Canada is $64/month. A far cry from what he pays. I even have extended medical that costs me approx $100/month. As our regular medical coverage does not include all medical expenses.

And RUEBEL wants to speak about credibility?, perhaps he should get his facts straight before opening his mouth with incorrect information.

FACT: the Hoover dam was completed under budget and ahead of schedule as the result of being lead by a Canadian who was paid a $300,000 bonus at the time. I would bet that most Americans don't realize how often our two nations help each other out so often.

We are great nations side by side together and I know that Americans are proud of their country and who they are, and I am too... Proud to be a Canadian and not even RUEBEL can take that away from me.

4D is only as complicated as you make it, actually it's very simple and I have plenty of time to write my card as per while in live-play.

Please people, think outside of the box and you too can find a path to beating pre-shuffled cards.

FACT: pre-shuffled cards do have a bias, the difference is that it is of a shorter duration than what you see with regular cards. For most, it looks as tho there is no bias at all, but 4D will prove that wrong because 4D exposes the bias whereas NOR won't.

I use the 4D method day-in day-out, and accumulate 5 or 6 units on a regular basis. I have also tested so many shoes from the forum that members have trouble with and 4D beats them all. aLL!

Pre-shuffled shoes are different, but are manageable and I plan to play my method on my trip to Macau in November with confidence.

4D Lives on.

CC

Great post, CC
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This is my last reply to you.after this i am just going to ignore you and not waste any more of the members time with stupidity.don't talk about my credibility,just so you know i know about your medical system.the small part of your medical system that you brushed over are the waiting times.in the usa you can get an mri in the same day and in canada it could take you up to 6 months,depending on availability.i'm not here to talk about that.please,please don't play the canadian card.you still can't come to terms with the fact that you threatened this forum with lawsuits.i wonder if the the canadian medical plan offers psychiatrists,you sure need one. You have only proved 1 thing that you are a terrible gambler,you gambled that the btc site would fall apart and you lost .with all your blah blah blah 4d nonsense,big talk,all trash,one the best bac players in the world and you can't afford 10 bucks a month.i don't want to waste anymore on you.please don't respond,unless you are willing to apologize to this membership,that's non negotiable..

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please don't respond,unless you are willing to apologize to this membership,that's non negotiable..

I really hate to respond, but I just can't let it go. Where does this guy get off telling other members what they have to do on this forum. I think this person needs to see that Canadian psychiatrist.

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CdnChamer
This is my last reply to you.after this i am just going to ignore you and not waste any more of the members time with stupidity.don't talk about my credibility,just so you know i know about your medical system.the small part of your medical system that you brushed over are the waiting times.in the usa you can get an mri in the same day and in canada it could take you up to 6 months,depending on availability.i'm not here to talk about that.please,please don't play the canadian card.you still can't come to terms with the fact that you threatened this forum with lawsuits.i wonder if the the canadian medical plan offers psychiatrists,you sure need one. You have only proved 1 thing that you are a terrible gambler,you gambled that the btc site would fall apart and you lost .with all your blah blah blah 4d nonsense,big talk,all trash,one the best bac players in the world and you can't afford 10 bucks a month.i don't want to waste anymore on you.please don't respond,unless you are willing to apologize to this membership,that's non negotiable..

Give It up will ya? Whatever......

I'm a professional 4D BAC player and you want keep rambling on, I thought I put this to rest on my last posting but no, looks like you still have an axe to grind. My last post was not targeted at you on a negative way. Just facts, and if you are in able to handle them with maturity, I'm sorry, but I can't help you and no one on the forum will either.

Like Sgt. Hulka said in the movie "Stripes"....

"Lighten up Francis"

CC

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Jim Files

Hi Everyone,

Hey, lets try something different...

Let's everyone quit attacking each other and get back to learning the best ways to "BEAT THE CASINOS" instead of beating up on each other.

I totally understand that the current business model isn't working for Ellis and Keith, I really like the idea of paying the $150 for the proposed webinar for making 5 units a shoe and that being a prerequisite for forum membership for that section of the forum or the proposed possible $10 a month for ongoing membership in the +5 section of the forum, whatever works would be fine with me.

I would really just like to see all this get resolved and get back to what we are all here for... as stated above.

Best Regards,

Jim

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Hi Everyone,

Hey, lets try something different...

Let's everyone quit attacking each other and get back to learning the best ways to "BEAT THE CASINOS" instead of beating up on each other.

I totally understand that the current business model isn't working for Ellis and Keith, I really like the idea of paying the $150 for the proposed webinar for making 5 units a shoe and that being a prerequisite for forum membership for that section of the forum or the proposed possible $10 a month for ongoing membership in the +5 section of the forum, whatever works would be fine with me.

I would really just like to see all this get resolved and get back to what we are all here for... as stated above.

Best Regards,

Jim

You've been a member since 2008 and you still can't make 5 units a shoe? Dude, when do you think you'll ever learn? Oh I know, you're always looking out for that next "sure thing" from Ellis that will finally make you a winner.

It's a sad fact that you aren't alone. Here's some helpful advice that you'll probably not listen too...stop trying to find that winning system that never loses and learn how to be a winner from within. Have the courage to win or lose based on your own intellect, not someone else's.

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CdnChamer
You've been a member since 2008 and you still can't make 5 units a shoe? Dude, when do you think you'll ever learn? Oh I know, you're always looking out for that next "sure thing" from Ellis that will finally make you a winner.

It's a sad fact that you aren't alone. Here's some helpful advice that you'll probably not listen too...stop trying to find that winning system that never loses and learn how to be a winner from within. Have the courage to win or lose based on your own intellect, not someone else's.

Hey, nothing against tjfiles or anyone else....

BigVic.... I couldn't have said it any better... Keep up with the great postings

4D lives on,

CC

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Have the courage to win or lose based on your own intellect, not someone else's.

LOL!!! And yet here you are, a paying member of BTC, learning from someone else's intellect. This may be the funniest thing I've read on here.

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CdnChamer
I really hate to respond, but I just can't let it go. Where does this guy get off telling other members what they have to do on this forum. I think this person needs to see that Canadian psychiatrist.

Well said Gman7, his posting was entirely inaccurate as he claims that I said; I'm the best baccarat player in the world???? I never said that.

Among other statements he claims that I am? They are totally untrue, He has no clue who I am and my intellectual level of baccarat play. Ii don't think he really takes time to clearly read the postings I made; to see the real message. I never targeted him directly in my later posting about having an axe to grind.... but yet he doesn't see that? I was actually ironing things out and restore unity between members on the forum.

Some members actually acknowledged that. But obviously he didn't.

All the claims he made against me are totally based on his own interpretation without facts, PERIOD.

We are all entitled to freedom of speech, I get that.

I'm sure there are plenty enough psychiatrists in USA.

4D lives on.

CC

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LOL!!! And yet here you are, a paying member of BTC, learning from someone else's intellect. This may be the funniest thing I've read on here.

Not paying member...PAID member. There is a difference.

I hope you realize that any system on this forum or others are just the basic instructions on how to play this game. Will you ever allow yourself to have your own style, your own method of winning? It's hard I know, to have the courage to be your own man when gambling. It's much safer to blame a system when you lose than to blame yourself. It can be very painful to place the blame for your losses on yourself.

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Jim Files
You've been a member since 2008 and you still can't make 5 units a shoe? Dude, when do you think you'll ever learn? Oh I know, you're always looking out for that next "sure thing" from Ellis that will finally make you a winner.

It's a sad fact that you aren't alone. Here's some helpful advice that you'll probably not listen too...stop trying to find that winning system that never loses and learn how to be a winner from within. Have the courage to win or lose based on your own intellect, not someone else's.

LittleVic,

Well, I just wanted to get things going in the right direction and of course some jerk attacks me. You are really unbelieveable...

I'm toning it down because I would like things to be like they used to be... where people treated people like they wanted to be treated. Did I need an insult from you? NO I don't think so! You don't know how many units I can make in a shoe and you say something like that.

No wonder things are going to crap around here!

Jim

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