BaOTB4L +5 Practice

[gman72]

Oops sorry, this post was in error.

[trbfla]

Ellis-so when we are at a table, how long do we wait till we start betting one of the three methods?

[Golfgirl007]

Ellis, I have a couple of questions from post #12; Gman72's practice BaOTB4L (12-123) shoe:

1. Why is play 26 a "0" SP bet again (the last "0" SP bet was at play 10) and not a "1" SP bet ay play 26?

2. Is the logic behind the placement of bet 45 on BANKER because the previous ZZ run at plays 22-27 also a ZZ run and we only compare ZZ runs to ZZ runs. We do not compare ZZ runs to ST runs? Therefore we are NOT using the play at 39 to determine the placement of the bet at 45 because 39 was a ST run and NOT a ZZ run??

3.Play 46-56 why do we not continue on betting directly under the ATR bet at play 45 straight down as we did under the OTR bet at plays 11-13? Why do we bet PP of BaOTB4L from 46-56??

4.Play 57, why do we increase the SP bet to 2 ATR (ST) based on the loss at play 39 of the 1 SP and the SP at play 45 that won??

5.Play 60, why is the SP a zero value unit bet and not a 3 unit bet in keepin with the SP sequence of (0123)?

6. At Play 61 should we have continued on OTR bets or should we go back to PP BaOTB4L as shown in plays 61-71??BaOTB4L (12-123).docx

[Golfgirl007]

There is tremendous value to what you are teaching us. This is by far the best forum in the world and you are by FAR the best teacher. Looking forward to learning more from you. Thank you for all you do for us.

[no3bet]

Ellis, I have a couple of questions from post #12; Gman72's practice BaOTB4L (12-123) shoe:

1. Why is play 26 a "0" SP bet again (the last "0" SP bet was at play 10) and not a "1" SP bet ay play 26?

2. Is the logic behind the placement of bet 45 on BANKER because the previous ZZ run at plays 22-27 also a ZZ run and we only compare ZZ runs to ZZ runs. We do not compare ZZ runs to ST runs? Therefore we are NOT using the play at 39 to determine the placement of the bet at 45 because 39 was a ST run and NOT a ZZ run??

3.Play 46-56 why do we not continue on betting directly under the ATR bet at play 45 straight down as we did under the OTR bet at plays 11-13? Why do we bet PP of BaOTB4L from 46-56??

4.Play 57, why do we increase the SP bet to 2 ATR (ST) based on the loss at play 39 of the 1 SP and the SP at play 45 that won??

5.Play 60, why is the SP a zero value unit bet and not a 3 unit bet in keepin with the SP sequence of (0123)?

6. At Play 61 should we have continued on OTR bets or should we go back to PP BaOTB4L as shown in plays 61-71??[ATTACH]2968[/ATTACH]

Hello GolfGirl,

I hope I may help to answer your questions while saving time for Ellis for some other better strategy to teach us.

Attach here is a my sample play of Gman72’s practice shoe. I have provided with all the comments for each play and highlighted all the secondary bet (SP) with “light green†for Steak and “light brown†for ZZ.

You can see there is a difference of plays between Gman and myself (Hand 42 and hand 62 – yellow highlighted). This is due to our variation on favor of handling runs. My preference is to continue OTR (after 6’s and 6 ZZ) until loses but Gman got off at his determination point. In this case you may see his way of handling runs performs better for this particular shoe.

To answer your questions:

#1: Play 26 is a zero test bet for ZZ run. Play 10 zero test bet is for ST run. The two different ST and ZZ runs are handled with separate TEST bet.

#2: Play 45 bet Banker (ZZ ATR) because hand 26 zero bet was a win. It is a continuation of SP 0123 progression after the zero test bet at hand 26. A winning test bet will cause the subsequent SP to bet ATR. Note again each ST and ZZ run are handled separately (ZZ to ZZ and ST to ST).

#3: Play 46 – 56 are PP bets as hand 45 after winning ends the ATR run. So we bet PP OT for hands 46 to 56 inclusive.

#4: Play 57 (bet 2 of 0123 progression) increases to 2 bet because hand 39 was lost (bet 1 of SP 0123 progression). Note again the ST SP bets are handled separately from ZZ SP bet. Therefore do not mix up Play 57 with Play 45 of which is the SP bet for ZZ.

#5: Play 60 bet ZERO because play 57 SP won the bet. When a SP wins, it resets subsequent SP bet back to ZERO and do test betting again. Note our progression is 120123 and it recycles after a win. In this case play 57 bet 2 won and reset SP back to zero causing play 60 to bet zero.

#6: Play 61 is a PP bet. All secondary bets are for 1 bet. We apply SP only to RUNS as they arise. That is after we lose two consecutive PP bets (hands 58 and 59 for example). In this shoe our SP are hands 10, 26, 39, 45, 57 and 60.

I hope the above helps.

AYS

BaOTB_Compare.pdf

[Guest]

Hello GolfGirl,

I hope I may help to answer your questions while saving time for Ellis for some other better strategy to teach us.

Attach here is a my sample play of Gman72’s practice shoe. I have provided with all the comments for each play and highlighted all the secondary bet (SP) with “light green” for Steak and “light brown” for ZZ.

You can see there is a difference of plays between Gman and myself (Hand 42 and hand 62 – yellow highlighted). This is due to our variation on favor of handling runs. My preference is to continue OTR (after 6’s and 6 ZZ) until loses but Gman got off at his determination point. In this case you may see his way of handling runs performs better for this particular shoe.

To answer your questions:

#1: Play 26 is a zero test bet for ZZ run. Play 10 zero test bet is for ST run. The two different ST and ZZ runs are handled with separate TEST bet.

#2: Play 45 bet Banker (ZZ ATR) because hand 26 zero bet was a win. It is a continuation of SP 0123 progression after the zero test bet at hand 26. A winning test bet will cause the subsequent SP to bet ATR. Note again each ST and ZZ run are handled separately (ZZ to ZZ and ST to ST).

#3: Play 46 – 56 are PP bets as hand 45 after winning ends the ATR run. So we bet PP OT for hands 46 to 56 inclusive.

#4: Play 57 (bet 2 of 0123 progression) increases to 2 bet because hand 39 was lost (bet 1 of SP 0123 progression). Note again the ST SP bets are handled separately from ZZ SP bet. Therefore do not mix up Play 57 with Play 45 of which is the SP bet for ZZ.

#5: Play 60 bet ZERO because play 57 SP won the bet. When a SP wins, it resets subsequent SP bet back to ZERO and do test betting again. Note our progression is 120123 and it recycles after a win. In this case play 57 bet 2 won and reset SP back to zero causing play 60 to bet zero.

#6: Play 61 is a PP bet. All secondary bets are for 1 bet. We apply SP only to RUNS as they arise. That is after we lose two consecutive PP bets (hands 58 and 59 for example). In this shoe our SP are hands 10, 26, 39, 45, 57 and 60.

I hope the above helps.

AYS

[ATTACH]2969[/ATTACH]

Wow, I'm going to have to give aysuen a raise! Excellent explanation!

Neither way of playing runs is wrong. Both are right under different circumstances. Different casinos have different strategies. All casinos have different complexions at different times of different days. We all need to be alert to this.

Again, 7s, ST and ZZ, are the key. 7+s (7 or mores) are the key to playing runs the most effective way at the table you are at, at the time you are at it.

7+s normally occur one every 2 shoes. If you are seeing that many or more, it is best to stay on all runs until you lose. If not, go by the length of the last run. If we have multiple runs, go by the length of the majority.

See, we aren't really trying to make a lot of money on runs even though sometimes we do. We are trying to protect our investment thus far. Which way would have done the best thus far?

While +5 does not require table selection, top players will still survey the tote boards if for no other reason, to see what 7s are doing.

But, in so doing, it is common to find a gift table that can get you off to a flying start:

High 1's or high 1's and 2s = BaS40

High 2s or high 2s and 3s = BaOTB4L

High runs both ST or ST and ZZ = BaS40M1

So yes, +5 allows us the sales feature "No table selection required!"

But that's like a guy selling shot guns and saying no aiming required.

A top player would not even think of playing W/O first finding out what's going on.

See, some casinos cater to beginners - expect high runs.

Other casinos cater to experienced players - expect low runs

Most casinos cater to both - Expect the floor tables and the high stakes tables to be totally different.

Recognize that they aren't stupid: they are trying to achieve the highest drop percentages possible - and usually do.

[Guest]

Ellis-so when we are at a table, how long do we wait till we start betting one of the three methods?

That is the question of the day for everyone, isn't it.

As soon as we see what events a shoe is high in, and low in.

That can come pretty quick: for instance a shoe starting with 12112 we all already know what to play.

A shoe starting with 124, we have no idea. We need to see more.

A shoe starting with 2122, we all know to play BaOTB4L

All are 7 plays:

But in the first example, all events thus far greatly favor BaS40 because its primary prog beats every event thus far with no 0 bets. We might be a little pissed that we waited this long.

In the second example, yes, the 1 and the 4 favor BaS40M1. BUT, the early 2 has already incurred a 0 bet. Lets wait and see what develops. Or, lets find a more favorable table.

In the 3rd example, we are decidedly pissed. because BaOTB4L would already be at +5. Ba OTB4L is second place with +2. BaS40M1 is getting killed.

See the dilemma?

There is no optimum starting point for all shoes. Each has its own optimum starting point.

Closely associated with your question is which system should be our base (default) system??? It looks to me like BaS40 is slowly emerging as best.

[gman72]

Ellis, I am trying to study shoes and play by plays posted by other members that is incorrect. It is becoming most frustrating. Can you simply not create a seperate sticky thread for each of the 3 +5 MDB sytems and inside each sticky thread post one shoe that YOU play out play by play and the RULES also stated seperately from your play by play. Have all the members use YOUR shoe as the discussion point and we can all replay YOUR shoe to see if we arrive at the same result. This will reduce the number of needless posts and eliminate incorrect information. This method of organization would be so helpful and allow for quick reference as we are learning. Can you please give this a try.

There is tremendous value to what you are teaching us but it is being lost in the unorganized method of delivery. This is by far the best forum in the world and you are by FAR the best teacher. Looking forward to learning more from you. Thank you for all you do for us.

Wow. I guess I see what others think about my posting shoes for practice. For the record, I never said I was teaching anyone how to play correctly. I simply was following the rules as posted by the teacher and playing them out. Others could follow along and try as well. Mistakes, if any, could be pointed and discussed so all could learn. That's the point of a forum I thought. It is for discussion and my practice shoes and play by plays are done to encourage discussion.

Sounds like you just want a manual. Good luck with that.

[Quizzical1]

Wow. I guess I see what others think about my posting shoes for practice. For the record, I never said I was teaching anyone how to play correctly. I simply was following the rules as posted by the teacher and playing them out. Others could follow along and try as well. Mistakes, if any, could be pointed and discussed so all could learn. That's the point of a forum I thought. It is for discussion and my practice shoes and play by plays are done to encourage discussion.

Sounds like you just want a manual. Good luck with that.

Gman, I, for one, am pleased you are posting shoes and think it is a great learning tool for all of us. I've printed out your template many times to run examples by and compare to the three methods. It is an essential necessity IMHO.

[Guest]

Gman, I, for one, am pleased you are posting shoes and think it is a great learning tool for all of us. I've printed out your template many times to run examples by and compare to the three methods. It is an essential necessity IMHO.

Right, I posted a very complete manual for NOR designed to answer all questions. After that I only got 8472 questions.

[newbacplayer]

I think the unique challenge with BaOTB4L in this secondary progression model is that if you have a situation where the ST and ZZ runs both require a secondary progression, by the time either get the first 1 unit bet on the secondary, you are down 6. If both are at the point of the first 1 unit bet of a secondary progression, you are down 12 units total. This is hard to make up in the secondary betting process, but exacerbated in BaOTB4L due to having two separate secondary progressions running at one time.

[Golfgirl007]

Ellis, respectfully, again, I am not asking you to post a manual. I am simply suggesting 3 seperate threads containing one shoe representing each of the systems accompanied by the rules and a play by play. This way all members can comment on YOUR shoe played correctly. This would provide for easier access to the information for all players in an organized manner and eliminate needless posts. I have received private messages from other members on the forum thanking me for asking this of you. I am not the only one who sees the benefits to all of us to simply have the 3 or now 4 systems separated and rules and play by play posted. I hope you will give some consideration to improving the organization as to how the information is presented.

Thank you for all you do for us. This is by far the best forum in the world!!

[djricardo]

Ellis, respectfully, again, I am not asking you to post a manual. I am simply suggesting 3 seperate threads containing one shoe representing each of the systems accompanied by the rules and a play by play. This way all members can comment on YOUR shoe played correctly. This would provide for easier access to the information for all players in an organized manner and eliminate needless posts. I have received private messages from other members on the forum thanking me for asking this of you. I am not the only one who sees the benefits to all of us to simply have the 3 or now 4 systems separated and rules and play by play posted. I hope you will give some consideration to improving the organization as to how the information is presented.

Thank you for all you do for us. This is by far the best forum in the world!!

Yes, only then we can learn better without doing any costly mistake.

So far I haven't seen any member embarking on the quest for one million $$$. I guess the confidence level is not there yet to go ahead. Everything is still at the theory level.