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Several have been asking for a progress report and have offered to help test.

I'm not sure what to call this yet so I'll simply call it MDB 2Hi Net Bet.

First, it does not rely on any kind of bias like NOR does

And it does not rely on random cards either like MDB+

And it does not rely on P and B running near equal like regular PvB Net Bet.

Therefore, as near as I can tell at this time, it simply doesn't care where a shoe comes from,

what type of cards are used - regular or preshuffled, or how new or how old the cards are.

For instance, I just played the very tough shoe that MVS posted from an on line casino.

P 3112111322143512212

B 2121152111151112162

Total 75 plays that finishes at a 0 OR count.

Is has very close to the mathematical norm for all events;

19 1's

11 2s

3 3s

5 4+s

Also the ZZ and TT runs are very close to normal

I started at play 2 (I used our normal net bet "start a side under its first circle" rule.

My worst position was +1 and my highest position was + 11.

I finished at +7 but I would have quit either when I hit +11 for the second time 8 plays from the end of the shoe

or, even more likely when I hit +10 for the 2nd time, 10 plays before the shoe ended.

At that point I had 20 no bets

46 1 bets

and only 3 2 bets (in fact there were only 3 3 entries in the entire shoe played to the end)

for a total of 52 units bet and a 19.2 % Player Advantage.

So this is, by far, the most conservative system I have ever designed! It even bets less than flat betting every hand at 1 unit.

You might be thinking that MDB+ usually bets less than 52 units in a shoe.

Well yes, it usually does BUT MDB+ has a hi bet of 4 whereas this NB 2Hi has a high bet of only 2 and very few of those.

This gets very exciting when you think of it in terms of our million dollar play schedule.

That schedule needs us to average +6 or even only +5.

In this shoe, I was already at +6 at play 19! And I hit +5 already at play 11!

It does even better in chopier shoes.

So you might be thinking WHY don't I go ahead and release it???

Because there is still an important question.....

When should we use and when should we NOT use a mandatory 2: follow ALL 1 entries with a 2.

For instance: I played the above shoe and got those performance numbers with NO mandatory 2 at all. It did real wel.

BUT when I play the same shoe the same way except WITH a mandatory 2, it goes all the way to +19!

So you first thought might be:

Fine! let's play a mandatory 2!

Well it's not that simple:

The streakier a shoe is the more it likes the Mandatory 2.

BUT, the chopier a shoe is the LESS it likes a Mandatory 2.

So again your first thought would be :

Fine, we play M2 in a minus OR count and no M2 in a plus count.

And that might very well end up being the best way to do it. I'm sure that would give us VERY good overall performance.

Another way is to bring in the mandatory 2 at a certain run length such as after a run goes 3.

But that is where I'm at.

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For instance, I just played the very tough shoe that MVS posted from an on line casino.

P 3112111322143512212

B 2121152111151112162

Total 75 plays that finishes at a 0 OR count.

Is has very close to the mathematical norm for all events;

19 1's

11 2s

3 3s

5 4+s

Also the ZZ and TT runs are very close to normal

Chief,

I knew I was good for something around here!!

Looking forward to working with your update.

MVS

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Hi MVseahog,

Is Ellis going on your base of play using the simple system. So is he going to use the 2Hi instead of

the 123 you use or is he using a different setup? Thanks a million

It is a completely different system altogether. Nothing like anything we've ever done before. 100% mechanical.

I like working with MVS's shoe because that shoe has no biases. It is a completely normal shoe in every respect.

It isn't streaky or choppy and it doesn't favor any events. It doesn't have a strong side.

NOR wouldn't have a clue which system to use.

MDB+ does well because the shoe is so close to random. It contains no biases. Way2fast, it would be good if you could post this shoe played MDB+.

But I'm looking for a single way to play that beats BOTH biased and unbiased shoes.

I've got a couple things I want to look at this morning. But then I'll post the rules as well as this shoe.

NB 2Hi is not difficult at all. It is 100% mechanical and has no modes or decisions or bet triggers. It is "busy" and takes a little practice. But anybody can learn the whole thing in an hour.

I'm going to post how to play it only on the MDB forum.

But I'll write a thread ABOUT it on the NOR forum.

We still have a few NOR hold outs who have not joined the MDB forum.

And NB 2Hi will give them plenty of reason to join the MDB forum since it can be played against ANY type of cards and against ANY shoe type.

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Thanks a million Ellis... I just got back from the casino and I tried playing MVSeahog way of playing

which is the simple system with a 1-2-3 max bet then hold for one win then resume at 1 and I noticed

back to back loses of 10 units.. When you have to many switches in a shoe. I have seen OTB4L and then to a long

steak then go back to otb4l then immediately back to a streak within a few bets of each other

and then can knock you down on a 1-2-3 progression. This is just what I am experiencing. I can tell you

the way MVseadog has the modification is good with the exception there isn't numerous switches within a short

time frame because with each switch your having a 1-2-3 loss.. Just one set of 1-2-3 losses is 6 units down

with a 10 unit stop loss...

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Hi Golfgirl,

I believe they have a webinar that you can register that goes over SAP and net

betting. That may be the best thing. There are a couple threads that explain more about

net betting. Look under the thread Ultimate NB and Ellis goes over some of the NB there..

Also I believe Keith has a video some were for basic NB and its available to purchase.

I hope this helps..

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Can someone tell me the post number where net betting is explained? I would like to learn how to net bet.

Ha, welcome back! I don't blame you. Net Betting, which I developed in the early '90s, can achieve the same result as single side betting while betting only half as many chips. When I explain how to play this new NB2Hi, I'll explain basic Net Bett8ing right here at the same time.

Basically we can net bet any two things that occur equally in a shoe. For NB2Hi we will be net betting in its simplest form which is Bank vs Player which we call PvB Net Betting. If we wanted, we could net bet OvR (opposites vs repeats) or OvT (OTB4L VS TB4L).

But the reason PvB is the simplest is because our two progressions run straight down our score card making them easy to follow.

I'll rxplain it from the standpoint of a 123 up as you lose progression because you are used to that playing NOR.

So for PvB net betting we run separate 123 progressions down BOTH P and B. We call those "entries" because they are not table bets.

Whenever an entry hits (is circled) it starts over at 1.

To get our table bet, we subtract the low entry from the high entry and only bet the difference on the side of the higher entry.

For instance: suppose our two entries for a play # were 1 on P and 3 on B. Our table bet would be 2 on B. If our 2 entries were the same on both sides, we would have no table bet that play, get it?

So what is the advantage of playing that way?

We bet far less money to achieve the same score. Which, in turn, means we have a much higher PA (Player Advantage) (Units won / units bet).

And in Baccarat, or any other form of gambling, Player Advantage is everything! It is your ROI - your Return on Investment.

To give you an idea, I like to compare it to BJ card counting. You know, like the movie 21 or a whole bunch of other movies.

Well all that fuss is about an attempt to achieve a 0.5% PA. Yep, that is the goal of card counting - a 0.5% PA.

That is one of the reasons I call card counting a complete scam. Even if you achieve your goal (0.5%PA), which you won't, you don't win enough money to tip the waitress. All those movies are about pure BS and I don't mean Basic Strategy.

Think about it, a perfect 0.5% PA means you had to bet $200 for every $10 you won - and that is PERFECT Card Counting.

Card Counting has't produced a single bottom line winner in the last 25 years. It is perhaps the best scam ever perpetrated on the public. Card Counting is the very reason I wrote my first book "NBJ" back in the late '80s. Card Counting gurus have "taken" millions of dollers from a totally unwitting public.

I was the fastest and best card counter in the world after 2 years of solid practice. I could count down a deck of cars in 13 seconds and tell you which card you removed from the deck. The average card counter takes 30 seconds to do the same thing. But in my first 2 months of card counting in Atlantic City I lost $40,000 and that was back when 40,000 was 400,000 in today's dollars. So I went back to NBJ and won my $40,000 back inside of a month. But needless to say, I was a little pissed at all the card counting gurus. THAT is why I wrote NBJ!

Don Johnson? He doesn't count, he plays NBJ.

Perhaps now you can appreciate that stunt I pulled with Virtuoid (Dave) of ImSpirit fame who was trying to prove me a fraud. With him monitoring every play over 6 shoes, I achieved a 26% PA - definitely a world record for 6 shoes. He's still scratching his head.

Card Counters don't even think in terms of double digit PAs. Hell, they can't even achieve 0.5%.

But with net betting, double digit PAs are common and relatively easy to attain.

Here's the story I like to tell that gives you an idea of how and why net betting works so well.

Suppose you and I ended up at the same Bac table in a casino.

Suppose I was betting a 12345 prog on Bank.

Meanwhile you are betting a 12345 prog on Player.

Suppose we both win 10 units because B and P ended up equal - as they so often do.

So we decide to go to lunch together to discuss our good fortune.

So you say, yeah, we both did great! But too bad we were always betting AGAINST each other.

I say, I wonder what would happen if we DIDN'T bet against each other. Lets say you have a 3 bet on P and I have a 1 bet on B.

So instead of us both betting against each other, you bet the difference - You bet 2 on P instead of 3??? I don't bet at all that hand???

So we get our cards out and we try that. Low and behold! We BOTH STILL win 10 units each! That SEEMS like a miricle because we both bet a whole lor less money. But it is NOT a miricle. What it IS is a little known trick of math.

So we have a couple more sips of wine!

And I say wait a freaking minute! What if we BOTH make the bet?!?! So Ok you've got 3 on P and I have 1 on B. What if we BOTH bet 2 on P???

So we try that on our cards. Low and behold! NOW we BOTH make 20 units instead of 10. No, it's not the wine. It is a simple fact of Math that few gamblers have ever heard of.

So, I say, see that - we don't even need each other. We can both put both progressions on our cards and simply bet the difference on the table on whichever side had the highest entry - and when both entries are the same, we save money by not betting at all that hand. We both end up betting less money while doubling our win. And it is all perfectly legal!

Ha, I had to laugh at that Foxwood/MoSun guy a couple years back that was selling a partners Bac system. One of our members even went to his class. Amateurs! I'm surrounded by amateurs! In the game of Baccarat, there is NOTHING a partner can do for you that you can't do all by yourself while at the same time, betting a whole lot less money! YOU are your own partner. It is just a simple fact of Math.

Then when you get thoroughly into it, you'll see there are all kinds of tricks you can deploy like mandatory 2.

But Ellis, what if we get one of those crazy shoes that is 80% Player wins and only 20% Bank wins. Wouldn't we get killed?

Yep! You would get killed!

UNLESS you know another little net bet trick I invented.

You don't have one prog going straight down P while the other goes straight down B. BOTH progs switch back and forth between equally as often on P as on B. This way BOTH progs take turns taking advantage of the strong side!

For demonstration, lets take a shoe where Player wins every single hand.

And lets have a switch rule that says "Every time a prog loses 2 bets in a row on a side, both progs switch sides."

AND lets limit our prog to a simple 123 up as you lose back to 1 on a win.

So OK the Bank prog loses a 1,2, switches to P and wins 3,1.

Meanwhile our P prog wins a 1,2 switches to B and loses a 1,2, switches to P and wins 3,1.

Can you picture it?

Your losing B side, your entries will end up 12121212 etc for the entire shoe.

BUT your winning P side, your entries will be 3131313131 for the whole shoe.

Result: For every 3 units the B side loses, the P side wins 4.

Doesn't sound like much?

Ha, that is +1 unit for every 2 plays or for an entire 72 play shoe? +36 with a highest bet of 2 units.

Sounds a little better now, doesn't it!

That is why NB2Hi deploys that very same trick - every time a side loses 2 entries in a row the two progs switch sides.

That way we no longer care if one side is stronger or if they are both equal.

We also don't care about biases or lack of biases.

Regular or preshuffled.

New or old.

We don't care what the shoe does. We are going to hit our +6 sooner or later no matter what the shoe does.

And if we hit our +6 early, we go for +10 - never betting more than 2 units.

I thought about calling it the NORM system!

So, are you beginning to get interested? Are you beginning to see the light?

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MVS's shoe wins 5 units playing MDB+

Thanks way! I knew at a glance it would do pretty good even though there were not a lot of bet opportunities. BUT, the bets you DO get, you pretty much win! The problem was that the shoe was so close to perfect random that you don't get a lot of bet triggers.

But it proves yet again, whether we are talking MDB+ or NB2Hi, Random CAN be beat! You just need to know HOW. And we know HOW! I don't care what the Mathematicians say. They are mere Mathematicians. They are not thinking PLAYERS. You can't win if you think it's impossible. You have to believe in yourself and your system and your teacher and steadfastly play the odds.

Less than 1% of Baccarat players win. That's because less than 1% know HOW to win.

There is no such thing as luck. It is just a word be invented with no basis in fact.

BUT, there IS such a thing as SKILL. Ask any scratch golfer. Luck has nothing to do with it.

Edited by Ellis
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Hi Ellis, I am anxioulsy awaiting your new rules for NB 2hi. Do you think I shall be successfull in using this new method online at the Black Orchid Casino where they only use 6 shoes and hand shuffle? :smile:

Hmm, in general, the fewer the decks the more random the shoe. My guess is that both MDB+ and NB2Hi will be effective. Hard to say which might fare better. Experiment a little.

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Ellis, I got to tell you. I am a scratch golfer. Baccarat is much harder than golf is. lol

Thanks way! I knew at a glance it would do pretty good even though there were not a lot of bet opportunities. BUT, the bets you DO get, you pretty much win! The problem was that the shoe was so close to perfect random that you don't get a lot of bet triggers.

But it proves yet again, whether we are talking MDB+ or NB2Hi, Random CAN be beat! You just need to know HOW. And we know HOW! I don't care what the Mathematicians say. They are mere Mathematicians. They are not thinking PLAYERS. You can't win if you think it's impossible. You have to believe in yourself and your system and your teacher and steadfastly play the odds.

Less than 1% of Baccarat players win. That's because less than 1% know HOW to win.

There is no such thing as luck. It is just a word be invented with no basis in fact.

BUT, there IS such a thing as SKILL. Ask any scratch golfer. Luck has nothing to do with it.

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But Ellis, wouldn't switching sides every two losses back and forth cause you to lose to terrible twos?

That's what I was thinking....waiting to hear how Ellis plays this....perhaps more rules are needed....like after 2 losses in a row, we wait one hand....

I yell "winner winner chicken dinner on all naturals"

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That's what I was thinking....waiting to hear how Ellis plays this....perhaps more rules are needed....like after 2 losses in a row, we wait one hand....

Ha, I haven't given you any rules yet. But you are thinking like a designer. We allow 3 bets under a 2 when needed before switching sides. TTs are not a problem. We win every bet on ZZs and pick up most of our units on them. A mandatory 2 takes care of runs but I'm looking to see if other options might be better.

I might post a couple of different variations so you guys can help me decide the BEST way. But I'm hoping to avoid that.

What is impressing me is the number of units this thing can generate with such low betting.

But one thing you guys can help me with: Most real casinos these days allow you unlimited no bets.

But on line, different casinos have different policies.

I'd like to know more about these policies.

How many no bets do they allow in a game and does it matter what stakes you are playing?

One way I played this thing does very well but has a LOT of no bets.

Another way I played it has very few no bets and scores higher. You are risking more units but still never betting more than 2.

Some of you guys have played MDB+ on line which has even more no bets.

Have any of you been kicked off for not betting often enough?

Not that this system is only for on line. It's for ALL shoes.

But I'm wondering if we need a special way to play it on line that won't get us kicked off???

Sorry but I don't have much on line experience.

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Ellis, when playing at an online site such as BlackOrchid, there is no rule that you have to make bets but the live video feed will "time out" or stop after about three minutes due to "inactivity" and eventually if there are no bets placed it will automatically log you off. When the live feed video stops all you have to do is click your mouse where the video feed is to activate the live video again. Or I place a bet and then remove it right away every few minutes to keep the feed going. So you can go a whole shoe without making a bet and just watch but you have to click on the video feed every few minutes just to keep it active. At least that's how I do it in "fun" mode with the free play money to practice.

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Hi Ellis,

I think it would be great if we call it the NORM system. Hopefully

it will be just one setup and that's what you were trying to do with

Ultimate NB and NB1-2 and trying to combine them. Keeping the risk

down and being able to play any type of shoe is a winning combination.

NORM always stated not to risk to many units on one bet.. Even with

a U1D2 can be devastating. Just imagine going up to a 6 bet and

win then down to a 4 bet to lose the next 3 bets and get wiped out.

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