Starting Again

[trbfla]

Baccarat guy, not for nothing....but let me get this straight. You come on to this forum not as a member, but just to tell everyone your going to be a member, but not right now? So, what's the point of you telling us this? Then some paid member...read paid his dues...read helped Ellis formulate a plan of attack, offers to help with any questions you may have and even gives you the opportunity to call him....FYI not many members post phone number or are this transparent.... Then you pass judgement about his mental capacity and use of song lyrics to get you or perhaps others to think about things instead of spoon feeding it to you...yes to use your mind and think........and you cast stones at others. How is that ?

Yes on the paid side members do share knowledge and discussions with one another...... Truth be told, it was through the paid side and the members here that have helped me ....so perhaps you are right, we are missing the reason for this thread...by all means please enlighten us with something other than your expert opinion on the marketing side of BTC and how you view posting to be doing an injustice, ....yes please let us ALL know the purpose for you telling us you are starting again.....

[Guest]

baccaratguy you must understand that in the 3 years I surfed the public part of this forum before joining I have seen a large number of guys try and gouge at this site for free info and claim they were members etc

Members are just wary that you might be expecting or trying to get something for nothing.

If you were a member Keith will sort it out - I had a few issues with payment confirmation and he sorted it out straight away.

If your after advice on how to get started without paying then: I would say there is enough free promo videos on this site and you tube about nor and netbetting to enable you to understand basics and make money. If you practise the stuff and set a win goal the same as loss limit I reckon you would win more sessions than you lose meaning you will make money - imagine what you could do if you understood all the techniques

When you get serious about winning though like I did then I recommend you join. it is seriously a small price to pay for what you will have access to. MDB is such an awesome system man - so simple but so effective.

All the best

Brad, are you a full time player?

What is your bankroll at?

How long have you been playing?

IMO - Unless you have played 40,000 hands of baccarat and can show a profit, you can't claim to beat the game.

I was at the casino the other night and this Asian guy who is quite friendly always asks me how I am doing. This time he was furious...no joke...the guy said he made 29 bets and lost 28 of them!!!!!!!

I think my record for losses in a row is 9...and I was fuming. Meanwhile my record for wins is 11.

Obviously, he was chasing the trends...and it kept switching on him.

[trbfla]

Hamster, I guess that depends on what you define as beating the game.... 40,000 hands seems a lot and isn't how I define beating the game. For instance if I average 14 units per shoe and win 8 out of 10 shoes, then I would consider this as beating the game. And you can do 14 units using the methods taught here.

[Guest]

Back in the early '90s there was a reputable survey in Vegas. The average player had $600 in pocket. I'm guessing today that's more like $1200.

Most will lose all of it before they leave town. Some will lose even more now that cash machines are legal in casinos.

This is because they have no idea what they are doing. Worse, they THINK they know what they are doing. This includes nearly every player in every casino - like 99.9%. The publically posted casino profit numbers prove my point completely.

Our member here, way2fast, has a 96% shoe win rate in Vegas. He is playing $200 units. He is playing a system he learned right here on this forum. It took him about a half hour to learn MDB+.

Look, I don't care if you spend 20 years trying - You'll never learn how to beat a casino by yourself. That is exactly what everyone else in the casino is trying to do. And they lose even faster than the game odds dictate - Much faster!

That's because they don't understand casino strategy. Hell, they don't even realize it exists. They have no idea what they are up against. Oh sure, they'll win a shoe now and then. That's what hooks them. The casinos count on that. The players fall for casino tactics like lemmings off a cliff. It is just a question of time.

OR, they could be winning 96% of their shoes just like way2fast. But NO! They are comfortable being a lemming. The dumb bastards.

Such players keep casinos in business.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Ellis

[ECD]

Baccarat guy, not for nothing....but let me get this straight. You come on to this forum not as a member, but just to tell everyone your going to be a member, but not right now? So, what's the point of you telling us this? Then some paid member...read paid his dues...read helped Ellis formulate a plan of attack, offers to help with any questions you may have and even gives you the opportunity to call him....FYI not many members post phone number or are this transparent.... Then you pass judgement about his mental capacity and use of song lyrics to get you or perhaps others to think about things instead of spoon feeding it to you...yes to use your mind and think........and you cast stones at others. How is that ?

Yes on the paid side members do share knowledge and discussions with one another...... Truth be told, it was through the paid side and the members here that have helped me ....so perhaps you are right, we are missing the reason for this thread...by all means please enlighten us with something other than your expert opinion on the marketing side of BTC and how you view posting to be doing an injustice, ....yes please let us ALL know the purpose for you telling us you are starting again.....

"HEAR...HEAR..." and you forgot that he mentioned (bragged) in his first post how he is pulling in $5K a week and yet because of some crazy half arsed self imposed discipline ...he will not fork out even a lousy $129 (I think) for a refresher course in NOR (NOR Bootcamp) until he is already winning at Baccarat. "GO FIGURE"... That...to my way of thinking equates with someone saying " I really want to be a Surgeon, but I don't want to bother going to University and paying for my Textbooks until the survival rate on my practice patients improves somewhat." We Aussies have a saying... "Pull my other leg...It plays Jingle Bells":rolleyes:

[Guest]

What?!? you are trying to teach yourself from what you see on the public forum?!? And in our films?!?

I'm not stupid! I'm not going to put anything on the public forum that actually wins.

The public forum is ABOUT what we teach.

The private forum IS what we teach.

Hey, I don't blame anybody for trying to save $1200.

Good for you! The trouble is, you'll end up spending $20,000 to save $1200.

Meanwhile way2fast is making about $1200 PER SHOE.

AND he's laughing at you - all the way to the cashier.

Join the freaking forum! Pay the $1200.

Learn MDB+! Play Vegas! Get your $1200 back your first shoe.

Hell, meet way2fast. See who he really is - an actual person - a very nice and friendly and helpful guy.

Do what he does - just like everybody here.

It takes a half hour to learn MDB+.

Or you could keep guessing and keep losing.

Whichever you prefer.

[ECD]

Brad, are you a full time player?

What is your bankroll at?

How long have you been playing?

IMO - Unless you have played 40,000 hands of baccarat and can show a profit, you can't claim to beat the game.

I was at the casino the other night and this Asian guy who is quite friendly always asks me how I am doing. This time he was furious...no joke...the guy said he made 29 bets and lost 28 of them!!!!!!!

I think my record for losses in a row is 9...and I was fuming. Meanwhile my record for wins is 11.

Obviously, he was chasing the trends...and it kept switching on him.

I really want to comment on these figures that you seem to keep pulling out of where the sun don't shine, but out of deference to Ellis, I will bite my tongue... I do however have a question..."Did your mother perhaps drop you on your head as a baby"?...I can think of no other rational explanation.

My apologies to Ellis and others if I've offended, but at my age, I no longer suffer fools gladly.

Memo to self..."Cease with the scrutinising of the Public Forum...it's playing sweet merry hell with my blood pressure"

[Guest]

Hamster, I guess that depends on what you define as beating the game.... 40,000 hands seems a lot and isn't how I define beating the game. For instance if I average 14 units per shoe and win 8 out of 10 shoes, then I would consider this as beating the game. And you can do 14 units using the methods taught here.

Hi trbfla,

I assume your losing shoes have a stop loss of -8?

If so, that would give you the following:

10 shoes played as a sample

8 winning shoes x 14

2 losing shoes x -8

= 9.6 units won before commission per shoe on average.

Does this sound correct?

Thanks in advance for providing your win rate on the forum.

[brad01]

Hi Hamster, I am not full time but I would like to be.

I never made any claim that I can beat the game.. Yet but I will definitely post my progress so you can see my success as a result of joining.

I did finally fork out the $ and join which by the way is actually less than $1200 if you get a discount and I got an automatic promo discount so it was $1100 for full membership.

$USD that is - such a shame the $AUD lost so much ground but that's life.

Baccarat guy I never meant to accuse you of trying to get a handout.

I respect your decision to not join at this point

I was actually trying to be constructive and say that theres probably enough free promo videos on here and YouTube to pick up some basics and w.ith some practise win more than you lose - I'd know as I surfed this forum for 3 -5 years before I joined.

[trbfla]

"HEAR...HEAR..." and you forgot that he mentioned (bragged) in his first post how he is pulling in $5K a week and yet because of some crazy half arsed self imposed discipline ...he will not fork out even a lousy $129 (I think) for a refresher course in NOR (NOR Bootcamp) until he is already winning at Baccarat. "GO FIGURE"... That...to my way of thinking equates with someone saying " I really want to be a Surgeon, but I don't want to bother going to University and paying for my Textbooks until the survival rate on my practice patients improves somewhat." We Aussies have a saying... "Pull my other leg...It plays Jingle Bells":rolleyes:

But OZ does it also play music with song lyrics too?

[trbfla]

Hi trbfla,

I assume your losing shoes have a stop loss of -8?

If so, that would give you the following:

10 shoes played as a sample

8 winning shoes x 14

2 losing shoes x -8

= 9.6 units won before commission per shoe on average.

Does this sound correct?

Thanks in advance for providing your win rate on the forum.

Hamster

No my average is a bit above 14 but I rounded down to 14. My stop loss is close to that. After commission and my losses. I don't play a long progression. I do have losing shoes at a rate of about 2 per 10. My running net is 14 per shoe not the 9.6 If I play 3 shoes a day x 5 days a week x 10 years is like 7500 shoes so I'll never get to 40000 shoes. So I may not be able to say I beat the game but I can say with patience, discipline and money management I have a fighting chance to win each day and that's all I can hope for is a fighting chance. So long as the good days exceed the bad one how can I complain.

[Guest]

Hamster

No my average is a bit above 14 but I rounded down to 14. My stop loss is close to that. After commission and my losses. I don't play a long progression. I do have losing shoes at a rate of about 2 per 10. My running net is 14 per shoe not the 9.6 If I play 3 shoes a day x 5 days a week x 10 years is like 7500 shoes so I'll never get to 40000 shoes. So I may not be able to say I beat the game but I can say with patience, discipline and money management I have a fighting chance to win each day and that's all I can hope for is a fighting chance. So long as the good days exceed the bad one how can I complain.

It was 40,000 bets...not shoes. So I guess around 600 shoes.

Why only play 15 shoes a week when you potentially have the holy grail in your hands!!???!!!??

Hamster

[brad01]

Look at his motto and that might explain it. Maybe he's already playing his holy grail. Average 10 u per shoe x 3 per day = 30 u per day.

At $10 min units I'd be more than happy with that.

Go up to $25 units and that's awesome money in my book.

Could even take a week off or survive a few bad days.

Sure anyone could play more and for higher stakes but maybe they don't want the extra stress and attention that goes with it?

[trbfla]

It was 40,000 bets...not shoes. So I guess around 600 shoes.

Why only play 15 shoes a week when you potentially have the holy grail in your hands!!???!!!??

Hamster

Whoa whoa whoa hamster right there....first of all it isn't a holy grail by the shear definition because it does lose some shoes. A holy grail wins every shoe.....I do not. Let's call it a playing method that I use that simply wins more shoes than I lose. But holy grail....no way. I wish but no way. There are plenty of people who are able to win more shoes than they lose. They have all posted here on this forum as well. Many others have and do do it. They have said so in their posts. I'm not alone but one of many. And I respect each and everyone of them because they put the time in to find what works for them. I just thought of 12 individuals.

I play on average 3 a day for many reasons. 5 days a week. I take off 2 so I don't burn out. Also 3 shoes is a 4 hour commitment at least.

One is life balance. I have a lot going on in my personal life and also my social life. It isn't all about baccarat but 95% lol.

Secondly, I am growing a bankroll for a lifetime.

Lastly, brad is absolutely correct. 1000%. I have found a playing method I like. So I continue to practice it, work on it, improve it each and every day. Norm once said he spent more time practicing his method than live games. Talk about dedication!!! So with my playing method, I can grow it. Meaning my short term goal is to be betting blacks, then I want to move up to purple. Then I want to play orange. A nice slow progression up in chip denomination while protecting my bankroll. I am using the leveling up method....start at 10 then 15 then 20 then 25 then 30 then 35......by the time I am up there I have played a lot and practiced a lot and I can be comfortable with betting blacks and purples without destroying my bankroll. Eventually, if the train keeps rolling things might look differently and I might make some changes, but for today 3 shoes is plenty for me.

[Guest]

BTW guys, over on the right in the boot camp discussion, when they say "MDB" they actually mean MDB+ or the 5 of a kind system. Steve just told me a couple days ago that whenever he says MDB he actually means MDB+. THAT is the system that currently has the 96% shoe win rate in Las Vegas and averages 6 or more. THAT is the best performance by far of any system in the entire history of gambling. THAT is the purely mechanical system everybody who ever plays Vegas needs to learn right now. It is so mechanical and so simple you can learn the whole thing in ONE webinar.

EVERY player in the world should be learning that system. It is specifically designed to beat the Las Vegas factory preshuffled cards. That is where its performance is so high. BUT, it holds its own against any cards anywhere as our players have clearly demonstrated.

I didn't look at the price of the Webinar but whatever it is, it's not enough!

That system is my very best work and has, by far, the highest performance of any system by anybody anywhere any time in the entire history of gambling systems and I have no idea of how long these Vegas conditions will last - maybe forever since they are beating everyone else in record breaking profit numbers. But then, look at Flamingo. Our player Art, beat them so bad 3 days straight that they went back to regular cards. Did WE do that? Well, it wouldn't be the first time a casino reacted to US. Turning Stone closed down their Big Bsc table mid shoe because we were beating them so bad. They threw us out of the casino - all 7 of us. The table stayed closed for two years.

I'm telling you - Go to this Webinar! Opportunities like this are very rare - maybe only ONCE in your entire lifetime.

[Guest]

trbfla, I'm interested in knowing if you are doing all your play against the same casino???

You know, Norm did all of his serious play against the same casino - MGM.

Sometimes you just get a casino's number - detect their vulnerability. This happened to me at Gold Strike, Tunica. I strictly played new cards there - the first 2 or 3 shoes after the card prep. They were all either S40 or OTB4L. I won nearly every shoe for 3 years. I was betting U1D2 and hit 20 or 21 nearly every shoe - switching to new tables as they opened and doing the exact same thing at Horseshoe next store. So I had plenty of tables to choose from.

[johnnycs1]

Ellis..whats the latest on MDB 2 Hi ?

Couple of us have asked about it a couple of times in the private forum with no replies ?

Whats the latest on it ?

[baccaratguy]

B

accarat guy, not for nothing....but let me get this straight. You come on to this forum not as a member, but just to tell everyone your going to be a member, but not right now? So, what's the point of you telling us this?

No I came to the forum looking for some direction about where to go and what to do when I'm ready to buy into the private forum. Like I said in a previous post, things have changed a lot since I stopped paying my monthly fee to be a BTC member. Everything from the pricing models to the main systems. I don't know if I should learn NOR or the MDB system. I was looking for some direction other than, "Join now" Or "Subscribe to the upcoming NOR webinar"..or.. "You won't ever win unless you join" ..I'm short on time..I couldn't even make that webinar if I tried.

Then some paid member...read paid his dues...read helped Ellis formulate a plan of attack, offers to help with any questions you may have and even gives you the opportunity to call him...

.

I didn't read it as that. I thought that his post was ignorant to my current situation. He assumed that I know nothing about the game and that I'm not capable of winning on my own. I'm not coming here looking to make a quick buck with this game. It's not possible. I can pick trends all day somewhat successfully and win if I get out of the casino...I'm coming here because I like the perspective of BTC and I hate trending. I need to systemize my play a little more.

Then you pass judgement about his mental capacity and use of song lyrics to get you or perhaps others to think about things instead of spoon feeding it to you...yes to use your mind and think........and you cast stones at others. How is that ?

To be honest..I didn't really understand what he was saying. Maybe he is smarter than me, who knows. But I using song lyrics?? Idk that's just childish. Saying that I won't fork up the money because I'm trying to be spoon feed? That's just ignorant. Maybe I don't want to shell out the money because I have employees to pay, meetings to attend, and other work to do.

Yes on the paid side members do share knowledge and discussions with one another...... Truth be told, it was through the paid side and the members here that have helped me ....so perhaps you are right, we are missing the reason for this thread...by all means please enlighten us with something other than your expert opinion on the marketing side of BTC and how you view posting to be doing an injustice, ....yes please let us ALL know the purpose for you telling us you are starting again.....

I should have put more thought into how I started the thread. It came off the wrong way. I completely get that.

But here's the deal. I understand this community..or what it used to be. I know that for every player who is winning a shoe consistently and having good days there are people who have joined who couldn't pull it over. Maybe they didn't understand the systems, maybe they went into information overload when they joined, maybe they didn't have the patience and discipline..but for whatever the reason, there are BTC members in both the past and present who can't win. I get that and that won't stop me from joining.

Over the years I have seen BTC go from Twister, to some net betting system, to SAP, then NU SAP?? Then the Maverick craze before he flipped out, then ADOT, then NOR, Then NOR something or other, Then MDB, and now I"m seeing MDBT++?? Oh and 4D? I'm sure that everyone can come up with some great reasons for the different systems..but I don't really care about that. I was just a little confused about what what BTC members are using at the table.

Look..I am not a beginner. I have studied this game intensely in the past. I have played thousands of shoes live and probably millions of hands on paper. I don't need BTC to win...but I do believe that I can improve my play and increase my win rate. I only stopped playing because I became busy and got burned out with baccarat.

So in summary..I was just looking for some more information about where to go, what to do. I guess that I was hoping a few members would come forward and praise this forum and all that the crew here has to offer. I was an extremely qualified lead...but the responses sort of pushed me out of the funnel and I'm having second guesses about joining.

[baccaratguy]

Ellis

BTW guys, over on the right in the boot camp discussion, when they say "MDB" they actually mean MDB+ or the 5 of a kind system. Steve just told me a couple days ago that whenever he says MDB he actually means MDB+. THAT is the system that currently has the 96% shoe win rate in Las Vegas and averages 6 or more. THAT is the best performance by far of any system in the entire history of gambling. THAT is the purely mechanical system everybody who ever plays Vegas needs to learn right now. It is so mechanical and so simple you can learn the whole thing in ONE webinar.

Please realize that this is all very confusing. You are promoting multiple systems here. MDB, MDB+, NOR, and then someone was talking about 4D. It looks like there is a different price tag for each system. As a potential buyer I starting to feel overwhelmed about what system to buy. Luckily for you I bought v1.0 of NOR back in the day, so I sort of get what it's about..but put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't even know what NOR is. You guys are using all of these fancy titles and throwing multiple options at the buyer. I wouldn't be surprised if you are disqualifying a good number of leads because you are making it harder for someone to make a decision.

But I get that. You are not a marketing guy. I remember you saying that back in the spring of 2011 in a thread.

And I'm not here to criticize the way that you are marketing the systems and I apologize for any rude comments that I have made.

So please just give some direction.

I'm a member with experience. I can play SAP in my sleep. I know the foundation of the first version of NOR. I actually am playing that now. I love OTB4L and System40. I never have had any success with RD1 or any of the follow (F) systems. I like to play an U1D2prog capped at 3 units.

So what system should I buy? Do I start at NOR? Or Do I go straight for the million dollar baccarat system?

Now please give someone who is completely new to the game direction. Where do they start? Do you just throw them into NOR? Did you guys ever find a way to consolidate all of the information on the private forum to help with information overload?

See..the whole reason for the existence of this thread is because it's very hard to figure out where to go. It's hard to figure out what to buy and the differences between each system.

Maybe you need one of your employees to create a big button that literally says, "Interested becoming a BTC member? START HERE" - The person can click the button and be directed to a page that explains exactly what they should do/buy in the simplest form possible. I see that you have the click here link at the top but there are still too many options and it's all very confusing.

Just my 2 cents.

Sometimes you just get a casino's number - detect their vulnerability. This happened to me at Gold Strike, Tunica. I strictly played new cards there - the first 2 or 3 shoes after the card prep. They were all either S40 or OTB4L. I won nearly every shoe for 3 years. I was betting U1D2 and hit 20 or 21 nearly every shoe - switching to new tables as they opened and doing the exact same thing at Horseshoe next store. So I had plenty of tables to choose from.

So here's a question for you.

It seems like the systems are designed to take advantage of vulnerabilities in the casino...more specifically the shuffle. Do different casinos ever have a default shuffle ..or something like a shuffle signature? So for example, would it be worth going to to my local casino and tracking shoes for a few days to see if there is any preference towards System40, Repeats, or whatever?

[trbfla]

Ellis I'm doing it against the same brand Seminole hard rock at each of their 3 casinos. Different days and times. But I agree with what you are saying. At Gold Coast I kill it there playing nor+ and s40. Man do I love the Gold Coast and boy do I miss it. And yes I am playing what I have learned right here......playing it live after my testing was completed.

[ECD]

So what system should I buy? Do I start at NOR? Or Do I go straight for the million dollar baccarat system?

Just join the forum. You can read everything there and participate in discussions with other members and THEN decide how YOU want to play the game. The tools work if you apply them correctly -- you will NEVER get it by hanging out on the public forum. Everyone finds a way to play that works for them.

We have been reading, over and over, how you want to pay for the membership out of winnings. Sounds like BS to me. You say you run a business. What successful business person doesn't understand the value of an investment? You are completely missing out on the ONLY RELIABLE information which will make you a winner. Just join already.

[Guest]

Just join the forum. You can read everything there and participate in discussions with other members and THEN decide how YOU want to play the game. The tools work if you apply them correctly -- you will NEVER get it by hanging out on the public forum. Everyone finds a way to play that works for them.

We have been reading, over and over, how you want to pay for the membership out of winnings. Sounds like BS to me. You say you run a business. What successful business person doesn't understand the value of an investment? You are completely missing out on the ONLY RELIABLE information which will make you a winner. Just join already.

What successful business person doesn't do his homework before investing?

[ECD]

What successful business person doesn't do his homework before investing?

You have been "doing your homework" here for many months -- and mostly posting utter nonsense about the game of Bac and in particular about how we play it. Successful business people do their diligence and then make decisive decisions and take action. They don't wallow around in the tide pool.

I could give a rats ass if you join or not, but please do stop pretending to be an expert on the public board.

[LOU30]

To Ham and Bacguy,

Just two simple questions.

1.Are you playing for real money now.

2.what size units do you play with.

Regards Lou.

[baccaratguy]

Successful business people do their diligence and then make decisive decisions and take action. They don't wallow around in the tide pool.

Sounds like BS to me. You say you run a business. What successful business person doesn't understand the value of an investment? You are completely missing out on the ONLY RELIABLE information which will make you a winner. Just join already.

Baccarat and business are two completely different things. My advice is to be very careful when comparing the two.

Baccarat has a negative expectation. The odds are always against you. It doesn't matter how much you pay for a system or what system you use.

In business - The odds are not against you. You are not competing against the house. It's a lot easier to start a business that generates 10's of thousands of dollars per month than it is to beat the casino LONG TERM.

In Baccarat - No investment is a wise investment. It's all based on fallacy and we are always making investments into the negative expectations, hoping that we can survive the short term long enough to get out. No investment in baccarat is truly practical. That's why I play for fun. Although I do see value in making smarter decisions about how to play the game. That's the value that BTC offers.

In Business - Investments can be both calculated and practical. How do you make a calculated investment in a game when the house edge is against you?

Baccarat is the complete opposite of a business. So you are really going down a slippery slope when you compare the two. Look around the casinos..who do you see gambling?

- Old people who are gambling their social security.

- Young kids on the weekend

- People who are addicted and can't stop.

- Desperate people who try to make $100 per day just so they can get by

- And of course, the rare pro player who figured something out. How often do you see these people? Not often.

Why? Because the house has the edge in ALMOST all cases.

Look at one of the greatest business men of Vegas. Steve Wynn.

I'm sure that he could learn all of the insider secrets if he really wanted to.

But he doesn't gamble. Not even for fun.

Why? Because business and baccarat are two completely different things.

Anybody who says otherwise is fooling themselves because they are attracted to the idea of making a quick buck.