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Baccarat for a Living  

15 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you play baccarat for a living?

  2. 2. Is your primary source of income from playing Baccarat?

  3. 3. Are you a consistent winner at Baccarat?



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Okay, hopefully I got your guys' attention lol...What I really wanted to say was that I signed up NOR & MDB couple years ago for $600 or something. However, I was too busy running a business as well as other commitments and never really found the time to study and practice the NOR/MDB systems to put everything together. Then, last year, having completely forgot that I was still a member at Beat the Casino, I found some "Baccarat Guru" that tried to sell me his system. Normally, I'm very cautious of things like this because it's done online, but we chatted/messaged back and forth as well as text/phone call and the guy even sent me pictures of chips that he had won (one of them he won $19K in one session "supposedly") at the casino where he plays--Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. He told me he and his team had won over $1.8 million in 7-8 years and his system can be played at any time anywhere and for many hands/shoes (basically not having to switch around different systems or playing according to a certain shoe). He even went as far as to send me pictures of his "sick daughter" in the hospital to try and make me feel sympathetic or some shit. Long story short and after much back and forth skepticism, I finally gave in and paid him a good sum of money to learn his "system". He has since took my money and ran and barely taught me anything about his system. It was something about using a marker and having multiple "chase" columns betting with or against the marker. Also, at times the bets could get as high as 20-30 units which personally I think is crazy risky high.

Now, I just want to leave all that behind me and am back on BTC. However, since remembering that I was a member here, I have been sent messages from the Admins that the entire forum is revamped and the business model has changed. Originally, I became a member to learn from Ellis, but I guess he's not here anymore. What happened to him and why is he not here anymore? Wasn't he the creator of a lot of these systems on this forum? 

After looking through the updated announcements, I realize that there is now a $50 monthly fee. After my whole situation, I am extremely leery of anyone trying to peddle their so-called "systems" especially when it comes to "gambling"...because let's face it, who in their right mind would try to sell you a system that are making them rich if they are doing it day in and day out? That's a frickin golden goose!! With that said, can any of the Admins/Mods and/or experienced players share with me why paying a monthly fee of $50 would be worth it? What I paid for NOR/MDB was $600+ (or maybe $600 for NOR & $200-400 for MDB) & each year's subscription would be another $600/yr not to mention the price I paid getting scammed by that reptilian motherfucker.

Do these systems actually work for you guys and is it worth paying $600/yr? Are the members here really winning with them on a consistent basis, day-in and day-out? What percentage of the members here are actually professional Baccarat players using these exact same systems? I read messages where the Admins/Mods said "another one of our members have joined the million dollar club" or something....do you guys actually have legitimate financial statements or documents that have confirmed and tracked these members' winnings using the exact methods/systems? How come we never really hear anything in the news about people winning big in Baccarat?...it's always blackjack. I heard some gurus say that blackjack is not the game to play anymore...Bac is, so why's that? I've only heard of one story of someone winning big in Baccarat and that was Phil Ivey with his edge sorting case. Is Bac and Blackjack able to be played legitimately for a living over a long period of time?...from my experience it seems like poker is the only true card game with a player advantage.

Sorry if I may have ruffled anyone's feathers, but there are way too many "Bac and casino game gurus" out there that I guess BTC is my last resort to be able to play Bac successfully on a consistent basis. Please share any of your advice or suggestions and if paying for the Premium Membership makes sense and is a great ROI. I would actually prefer to pay for solo training with an experienced and successful instructor that actually makes his primary income from (if possible).

I look forward to your responses thank you!

P.S. that asshole scumbag's name is Dave Gunas Jr from Connecticut and plays at Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods (maybe some of you on here might've heard of him?). He will also invite people to fly in from wherever and play alongside him and pool money together or whatever (fortunately, I didn't do this because this training package is even more expensive). LMAO SMH!!

 

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William Looi

My experience with NOR is , it is not a holy grail, will not make you rich over night , i have lost with nor before, But nor is working in others , Now I am using 3EM. and Brad tb4l.

Is Dave Gunas an Indian man? is so always be careful about Indian.

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trillion

Go4Broke, I feel your pain, I currently play NOR with very limited success due to the shoe constantly changing from S40 to Streak to OTB4L. There is no consistency at the casinos that I patronize regarding NOR, maybe 1 out of 10 or 15 shoes there may be some consistency playing NOR without switching between the different methods.

I have had some success with MDB+ which you are betting fewer hands per shoe, using a 1-2-4 progression following 7 different triggers, however I have to travel several hours to get to a casino. If I win 10 units playing MDB+ I don't stop playing  due to the traveling time required to get to the casino, then I have a losing 1-2-4 progression, now I am up only 3 units. I guess if I would be playing $100 to $1000 units it would be easier to stop playing after winning 10 units, that is the only complaint that I have regarding  MDB+, however there is a lot of players on the forum that are having tremendous success playing NOR, MDB+ or different systems on the forum.

I subscribed to the Premium Subscriptions service during the January signup period for the introductory  price of $25 per month, looked over the different manuals and information and decided after 1 month that I will wait until they develop the Stats for Profits looking at different methods besides MDB+, Currently not a premium member, I joined the BTC forum  in 2011 however I have not been a consistent winner since joining, currently retired and considering quitting playing baccarat, since I just cannot win on a consistent session to session timeframe.   

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Guys i joined about 14 months ago and only recently have I settled on my playing method

its taken me a year of solid practise to see things clearly

I am 53 units into a 57 unit base x10 plan - read money management members only post

when I complete that (I expect this weekend) I will start a new one and on completion I will be playing 100 x my base and full time

1 more is 1000 x my base and that's big $$

that's all flat bet

it is totally possible.

all the info is here and if anyone wants to pm me or go on chat I'm happy to play an online shoe live with you so you can see how I play - you give me the results and i'll give you my plays and lets see if we are up by the end

theres better players here but I'm making the offer to you guys

 Please support keith and mike and the forum who have invested a lot of money into it and stats for profit and give members access to EVERYTHING - PAST AND PRESENT AND FUTURE FOR ONE FEE PER MONTH

If you PM me and learn $50 per month will not bother you any more because you will get that money back within weeks and much more

put that scammer out of your mind - all you need is here

there are low lifes in every walk of life just stay away from them

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trillion
15 hours ago, brad01 said:

Guys i joined about 14 months ago and only recently have I settled on my playing method

its taken me a year of solid practise to see things clearly

I am 53 units into a 57 unit base x10 plan - read money management members only post

when I complete that (I expect this weekend) I will start a new one and on completion I will be playing 100 x my base and full time

1 more is 1000 x my base and that's big $$

that's all flat bet

it is totally possible.

all the info is here and if anyone wants to pm me or go on chat I'm happy to play an online shoe live with you so you can see how I play - you give me the results and i'll give you my plays and lets see if we are up by the end

theres better players here but I'm making the offer to you guys

 Please support keith and mike and the forum who have invested a lot of money into it and stats for profit and give members access to EVERYTHING - PAST AND PRESENT AND FUTURE FOR ONE FEE PER MONTH

If you PM me and learn $50 per month will not bother you any more because you will get that money back within weeks and much more

put that scammer out of your mind - all you need is here

there are low lifes in every walk of life just stay away from them

Brad, your profile indicates that you have been a member since July 2011, is that correct or incorrect????

 

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Hi trillion yes that's true and not true

I joined as a public member and sat on the fence for many years about whether to join.

I joined as MDB+ member 14 months ago and then joined netbet2hi as well

so when I say I have only been member for 14 months I mean a payed member with access.

Think about the forum before with some people with full access, some with only nor, some with mdb+ - it was not good

and if you wanted to upgrade you had to outlay a lot of $$

$50 per month and everyone is on the same page

less if you got the deal for mdb+ members

 

 

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William Looi

While I am using 3EM and on and off using
TB4L.  I still doing research on NOR, I found that NOR  got potential.  It need a method call ' pause look see  or stop look go '. But now I am very busy on other matter soon or later after I complete that matter I will post more of my research. 

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Keith Smith

Hi Thought I would chime in on the Premium Members forum.  Well first if you  bought before you have access to this forum and all of the original information and members.

The Premium forum has the organized download section and the stats for profits interface and new conversations.

I had to change the business model so that we think collectively instead of one person being the end all be all source of what is correct. It did not lend itself to better play missing many other common sense ways top;play the game.  In addition, the only way for it to be a financially viable business model was to offer new products i.e. manuals.  It was odd that when those manuals were offered, many would buy them and think nothing of it.  Some were very good, NOR and MDB.  But the theory behind them were all one sided and no one was able to question the validity without criticism or ridicule.  I had to stop that.  In addition to selling manuals to keep the business model working and paying someone the majority of the revenue do this and continually write in the forum was not conducive to building the business and providing the best information worldwide. .  Don't misunderstand it was valuable but counter productive when the ideas and insights of other intelligent Baccarat Players is ridiculed.  

If you decide to join the premium member forum, you are no longer paying for manuals you are joining a conversation where all thought and different approaches are considered and evaluated.  A players network where players discuss how to play and beat the casino.  We have been indoctrinated to accept one way of playing generally up as you lose negative progressions, there are many other ways worth discussion.  There is no promise of you will win a million dollars and get rich quick.  It is thoughtful conversation with good players, tools and approaches to evaluate, talk about and see what works best.

Also in the interest of fairness it is not $600 a year it is $49.95 a month and you do not have to renew if you choose. My hope is that I will get enough members to lower the price.  It is funny that when selling manuals, I have learned from marketing, if one promises wealth and endless winning, people will buy because they want to believe.  If i do this and say look let's objectively look at everything we have and let's see what insights you can add people balk at it.  Yet they will accept casino promotions where they know the casino has an advantage but go think they can beat them, pay thousands of dollars for manuals by many system writers who promise winning.  I ask for support to have an intelligent conversation, objective evaluation of approach,  and continue the forum and get very few old members to join us due to $49.95 a month. I would hope that many will see if we can get enough real players in the Premium forum, the thoughts of all will be so much better than one "GURU" who claims to be the end all source for knowledge.

I would hope that some will join us and support what we are trying to do and add what they can. That way we can have a better place here.

 

Keith 

 

You can tell the winners and honest players by how many times they admit they lost 
not by how many times they say they won.

Need Information Messenger

https://m.me/beatthecasinodotcom

司奇士

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It is really funny Keith I paid $1000 USD for full membership at the time and a further $200 for Netbet2hi

I'm not saying I was disappointed but I just think the way you have the structure set up now is much better and better value for new members

As a new member you can join up and get access to everything with no ongoing commitments if you don't want

The fact that existing members still get access to all except Premium is fair too

Sometimes Keith people do not respect too much info for free

Sometimes as you say they are happy to keep paying for new manuals and systems because it gives them hope they will find the HG

Well done for trying to run things honestly

I hope in the near future that will translate into support and $$

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Well said Keith, and genuinely appreciated.  I can appreciate at times a person being "head strong"....but not to the extent of being less that respectful of a possible way of looking at something from a different perspective.  To demean, belittle, and humiliate another.....is simply childish, and that is a business and personal recipe for failure of epic proportion.  As grown men and women, we can respectfully agree to disagree and do so with dignity and class.  

I love what is happening here on BTC, and I am proud and grateful to be a member.  Recently I have come to realize, some of the great people on here from different parts throughout the world.  A world wide community of honest and sincere people, dedicated to their craft and skills.....sharing and caring......It doesn't get any better than that.  

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As Keith said before;

Every possible way to dissect and play the game has been already discussed here and anything else that someone has or comes up with is just a variation

The game is not complex - its Banker or Player, opposite or repeat.

The maths of the game are school grade stuff

We just have to use what we have here already along with the members to help each other and get better

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  • 3 months later...
On 4/1/2016 at 2:52 AM, Go4Broke said:

Okay, hopefully I got your guys' attention lol...What I really wanted to say was that I signed up NOR & MDB couple years ago for $600 or something. However, I was too busy running a business as well as other commitments and never really found the time to study and practice the NOR/MDB systems to put everything together. Then, last year, having completely forgot that I was still a member at Beat the Casino, I found some "Baccarat Guru" that tried to sell me his system. Normally, I'm very cautious of things like this because it's done online, but we chatted/messaged back and forth as well as text/phone call and the guy even sent me pictures of chips that he had won (one of them he won $19K in one session "supposedly") at the casino where he plays--Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. He told me he and his team had won over $1.8 million in 7-8 years and his system can be played at any time anywhere and for many hands/shoes (basically not having to switch around different systems or playing according to a certain shoe). He even went as far as to send me pictures of his "sick daughter" in the hospital to try and make me feel sympathetic or some shit. Long story short and after much back and forth skepticism, I finally gave in and paid him a good sum of money to learn his "system". He has since took my money and ran and barely taught me anything about his system. It was something about using a marker and having multiple "chase" columns betting with or against the marker. Also, at times the bets could get as high as 20-30 units which personally I think is crazy risky high.

Now, I just want to leave all that behind me and am back on BTC. However, since remembering that I was a member here, I have been sent messages from the Admins that the entire forum is revamped and the business model has changed. Originally, I became a member to learn from Ellis, but I guess he's not here anymore. What happened to him and why is he not here anymore? Wasn't he the creator of a lot of these systems on this forum? 

After looking through the updated announcements, I realize that there is now a $50 monthly fee. After my whole situation, I am extremely leery of anyone trying to peddle their so-called "systems" especially when it comes to "gambling"...because let's face it, who in their right mind would try to sell you a system that are making them rich if they are doing it day in and day out? That's a frickin golden goose!! With that said, can any of the Admins/Mods and/or experienced players share with me why paying a monthly fee of $50 would be worth it? What I paid for NOR/MDB was $600+ (or maybe $600 for NOR & $200-400 for MDB) & each year's subscription would be another $600/yr not to mention the price I paid getting scammed by that reptilian motherfucker.

Do these systems actually work for you guys and is it worth paying $600/yr? Are the members here really winning with them on a consistent basis, day-in and day-out? What percentage of the members here are actually professional Baccarat players using these exact same systems? I read messages where the Admins/Mods said "another one of our members have joined the million dollar club" or something....do you guys actually have legitimate financial statements or documents that have confirmed and tracked these members' winnings using the exact methods/systems? How come we never really hear anything in the news about people winning big in Baccarat?...it's always blackjack. I heard some gurus say that blackjack is not the game to play anymore...Bac is, so why's that? I've only heard of one story of someone winning big in Baccarat and that was Phil Ivey with his edge sorting case. Is Bac and Blackjack able to be played legitimately for a living over a long period of time?...from my experience it seems like poker is the only true card game with a player advantage.

Sorry if I may have ruffled anyone's feathers, but there are way too many "Bac and casino game gurus" out there that I guess BTC is my last resort to be able to play Bac successfully on a consistent basis. Please share any of your advice or suggestions and if paying for the Premium Membership makes sense and is a great ROI. I would actually prefer to pay for solo training with an experienced and successful instructor that actually makes his primary income from (if possible).

I look forward to your responses thank you!

P.S. that asshole scumbag's name is Dave Gunas Jr from Connecticut and plays at Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods (maybe some of you on here might've heard of him?). He will also invite people to fly in from wherever and play alongside him and pool money together or whatever (fortunately, I didn't do this because this training package is even more expensive). LMAO SMH!!

 

I actually met with Dave Gunas (nickname BareFOot) in person and you're actually correct about him. I'm a Bacarat Player for many years and playing extensively at both Mohegan Sun and Foxwood in CT as well as Atlantic CIty  so when I met one that say crazy things about something that is in my blood I knew he's fake but I didn't try to expose him. I invited to him to the VIP lounge for dinner and talk, Until then, he would watch carefully of what he was going to say. After done eating I gave him $500 for him insisting of the time spent "consulting" me with his playing strategies and he needed help because his stepdaughter was being sick??? (A normal person would wonder why someone would be so desperate financially when he could coup up free casino money in no time????). I said it's no problem because I could make all this moneyback and even invited him to play along side me to make some money but he denied it was not his night only sit to watch I played. He did provide some "feedbacks" on what to bet but I proved he was wrong than most (LOL ) I made all of that money back and then some more in around 10 hands playing very conservatively. He was pretty amazed with the way I played though he didn't say it I still could see that in his eyes. He claimed he was top Bacaratt player there at Mohegun but I never did see him around at all. This is to say that we need to watch out for certain Holy Grail's systems out there, if it's too good to be true it's simply too good to be true.

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On 4/1/2016 at 5:03 AM, William Looi said:

My experience with NOR is , it is not a holy grail, will not make you rich over night , i have lost with nor before, But nor is working in others , Now I am using 3EM. and Brad tb4l.

Is Dave Gunas an Indian man? is so always be careful about Indian.

Dave Gunas is a white dude in his late 40's early 50's with a funky 80's spit hairstyle (luckily he ddn't dress like one LOL) I met with him and his wife 4-5 yrs ago at Mohegun Sun when I lived in the East Coast. He's no where near his claimed status when I met them, you know the extravaganza lifestyle and making big money playing baccarat all over the country...

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There are 2 types of people around gambling

Those that win and they just concentrate on playing and winning and those that claim they can and try to sell systems and make money that way

Its in all industries

Gambling, sharetrading, sportsbetting, investment, property investing

Sellers of false hope, scammers, frauds

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It is my humble viewpoint, that the single most distinctive quality that a person can have is that they WORK at what they do.  We all know the old tried and true saying, "if it was easy, the whole world would do it."   

Research, testing, practice, comparisons of strategies, betting progressions or flat, win goals, lost limits, patterns, counts, personal preferences, successes, failures, mental and emotional aspects, all of them and more enter into all of it.  

It demands hard work and learning how to work smarter.  I love and appreciate being a part of a community that does exactly that.  Cheers and admiration to the hard working members, owners, and friends of BTC.  

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On 7/24/2016 at 1:10 AM, avion said:

It is my humble viewpoint, that the single most distinctive quality that a person can have is that they WORK at what they do.  We all know the old tried and true saying, "if it was easy, the whole world would do it."   

Research, testing, practice, comparisons of strategies, betting progressions or flat, win goals, lost limits, patterns, counts, personal preferences, successes, failures, mental and emotional aspects, all of them and more enter into all of it.  

It demands hard work and learning how to work smarter.  I love and appreciate being a part of a community that does exactly that.  Cheers and admiration to the hard working members, owners, and friends of BTC.  

I'm inclined with what you said. Listen more than talk and never stop learning that is my mojo in life

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Brad said - “The fact that existing members still get access to all except Premium is fair too  “

I don’t believe that is true. I joined right before Elvis, I mean Ellis, left the building. Yes, he is stuck in his ways and full of BS sometimes. But he was active and contributed a lot.

I paid the $600 for lifetime (all but the MDB). Then things changed, more limited access and much less content.

Here, I have to say that the time and interest by ME has declined for various reasons. That’s on me and not BCT.

Now I have access to the Public forums and only “Members Only Baccarat Forum.”  The old BCT had more content available to me.

When I joined, BCT seemed much more active, as was I. Those two fed off each other - for me at least.

Anyways, heading to Vegas tomorrow. Stay downtown and will be at Red Rock. Hope to play some bac and have some fun!

Thanks to those that do contribute here. Again, I have less time and therefore interest at this cycle of my life. Maybe things will pick up again. Good luck to all.

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When a structure changes there is always going to be existing members that are caught right at the changeover period and a lifetime fee to a monthly fee there is no solution where the members and site owners will both be happy

Unfortunate

 

 

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1 hour ago, brad01 said:

When a structure changes there is always going to be existing members that are caught right at the changeover period and a lifetime fee to a monthly fee there is no solution where the members and site owners will both be happy

Unfortunate

 

Unfortunate for who?...not for me because it simply doesn't matter to me any more. It's not the trifling amount...it's the principle, which is why I just don't bother. I'm settled in my method of play and I concentrate purely on refining and improving. I was fortunate to be mentored by three of the best Baccarat brains on the planet...Ellis ...who taught me the basics (before he lost the plot)...Norm RIP ...who took me to another level...and there is a third who is at least on par (who has to remain nameless because he prefers anonymity) and  he took me into another realm where STOP/LOSS doesn't exist and position in the shoe doesn't matter a shit because it's all about where you are long term and if you aren't playing a negative progression and simply using the 1 - 2 loop or Flatbetting ...neither should it. If you can get that through your head and fully comprehend what I'm saying...it removes the fear. We have all been taught that a S/L is necessary and as we get close to our limit, the "fear" kicks in and fear causes mistakes. Remove the necessity of a S/L and you remove the fear. 

Think about it.

Note: The thoughts expressed above apply only to regular players and not casual (entertainment)players

Just a few thoughts before I piss off outta here...The wisest of many wise words by Norm "When in doubt...wait it out" ...If you don't know for sure what bet you should be making?...then "DON'T MAKE THE DAMN BET" 

It takes skill to recognise when not to make the bet and each losing bet that you avoid is as good as a winning bet. 

Recognise that the more shoes you play...the more likely you are to win (if your method of play is half decent)

Don't spend your life waiting for the perfect OTB4L or S40 shoe...they rarely come. Look for each bias within the shoe and get on and when it peters out...look for the new bias or a stronger bias within the bias, or to see if it's just a blip and continues on for a while  (you can do this shit if you aren't dependent on a negative progression.)

I utilise OTB4L...S40...Repeats...RD1 and F2SS and frequently, I use all 5 within the same shoe. I rarely bet TB4L because the loss of 3 units with a 2iar to me is a bad bet. Also...Look for MC and LC events.

Look for your own triggers and practice them and improve them and refine them again and again...and you can beat this game. The triggers have to become second nature.

Avoid negative progressions like the plague. 

I know that Way2Fast did well with MDB+ but I suspect that he is the exception. I use MDB+ only to tell me when not to bet.

You would not believe the number of shoes...the records I have...the research I did...the constant practice...I would have earned 3 Medical degrees if I'd put the same time into university...LOL... I'm not trying to discourage anyone...rather the opposite...you just gotta be prepared to do the hard yards...  BTW: Don't let anyone tell you that you can't get high average wins with flatbetting or the 1-2 Loop. I'm not going to say...but you would crap your pants if you knew how many units you can average with minimal risk. I was lucky though...I was taken under the wing of the third member of the Baccarat Trinity who is still prodding me and forcing me to improve. 

Some things in life don't change...I still find Baccarat "Batshit boring"...but "HEY...It's a living" 

Take care y/all

I'm outta here

Oz

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I understand, and still it breaks my heart to see good and dedicated people move on.....but I do understand, the one constant in life is change.  Savour every good moment there is.  

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William Looi
On 28/07/2016 at 6:22 PM, ozscouser1 said:

Unfortunate for who?...not for me because it simply doesn't matter to me any more. It's not the trifling amount...it's the principle, which is why I just don't bother. I'm settled in my method of play and I concentrate purely on refining and improving. I was fortunate to be mentored by three of the best Baccarat brains on the planet...Ellis ...who taught me the basics (before he lost the plot)...Norm RIP ...who took me to another level...and there is a third who is at least on par (who has to remain nameless because he prefers anonymity) and  he took me into another realm where STOP/LOSS doesn't exist and position in the shoe doesn't matter a shit because it's all about where you are long term and if you aren't playing a negative progression and simply using the 1 - 2 loop or Flatbetting ...neither should it. If you can get that through your head and fully comprehend what I'm saying...it removes the fear. We have all been taught that a S/L is necessary and as we get close to our limit, the "fear" kicks in and fear causes mistakes. Remove the necessity of a S/L and you remove the fear. 

Think about it.

Note: The thoughts expressed above apply only to regular players and not casual (entertainment)players

Just a few thoughts before I piss off outta here...The wisest of many wise words by Norm "When in doubt...wait it out" ...If you don't know for sure what bet you should be making?...then "DON'T MAKE THE DAMN BET" 

It takes skill to recognise when not to make the bet and each losing bet that you avoid is as good as a winning bet. 

Recognise that the more shoes you play...the more likely you are to win (if your method of play is half decent)

Don't spend your life waiting for the perfect OTB4L or S40 shoe...they rarely come. Look for each bias within the shoe and get on and when it peters out...look for the new bias or a stronger bias within the bias, or to see if it's just a blip and continues on for a while  (you can do this shit if you aren't dependent on a negative progression.)

I utilise OTB4L...S40...Repeats...RD1 and F2SS and frequently, I use all 5 within the same shoe. I rarely bet TB4L because the loss of 3 units with a 2iar to me is a bad bet. Also...Look for MC and LC events.

Look for your own triggers and practice them and improve them and refine them again and again...and you can beat this game. The triggers have to become second nature.

Avoid negative progressions like the plague. 

I know that Way2Fast did well with MDB+ but I suspect that he is the exception. I use MDB+ only to tell me when not to bet.

You would not believe the number of shoes...the records I have...the research I did...the constant practice...I would have earned 3 Medical degrees if I'd put the same time into university...LOL... I'm not trying to discourage anyone...rather the opposite...you just gotta be prepared to do the hard yards...  BTW: Don't let anyone tell you that you can't get high average wins with flatbetting or the 1-2 Loop. I'm not going to say...but you would crap your pants if you knew how many units you can average with minimal risk. I was lucky though...I was taken under the wing of the third member of the Baccarat Trinity who is still prodding me and forcing me to improve. 

Some things in life don't change...I still find Baccarat "Batshit boring"...but "HEY...It's a living" 

Take care y/all

I'm outta here

Oz

You don't go away want to learn from you. We are here to beat the casino. Stay on please.

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