harrican
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Posts posted by harrican
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Just out of interest...I heard from another member of BTC who has been testing out the waters as well ...so far ...50 shoes...2 losing shoes of -6 apiece...2 zero shoes and 46 clear winning shoes...
I find that even more encouraging for some reason.
So...maybe I'm not living in fairyland after all...LOL
Just a thought...if we add those 50 shoes to my more recent shoes and include my earlier forays...that would make it around 13 losing shoes (max of -6 each ...except for one -7 that still makes me cranky because of my lack of discipline) out of well over 300 shoes.
Not as impressive as 100 shoes without loss...but more than acceptable methinks
Hi Oz,
Perhaps this other member of BTC can post some of his shoes for us to study? Or perhaps he can also help to explain?
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Right, that is the intelligent question!
Here is the way I see it:
S40 M2
OTB4L M3
F2
And that is the way the test shoes thus far were done.
Here is my reasoning: We know that M2 favors streak and M3 favors chop.
We obviously don't want them all favoring the same thing.
F already favors streak somewhat so we make it F2 to completely favor streak.
OTB4L favors neutral but M3 beats the most events.
S40 favors chop big time so we can afford M2 which tends to favor lower bets.
Lets use that as a starting point so we are all doing it the same way.
Thanks for the swift reply
some more questions ..1. OTR part - Do we do as per NOR and play OTR two times for mode 2 and OTR once for mode 3? or just OTR all the way?
2. Mode fail part - When the Mode fail, do we switch as per NOR or just stick to the same mode for the whole Shoe?
3. When the "bets" are even but falls on different sides, for example , lets says S40 says bet 1 unit on player, and F says bet 1 unit on banker and OTB4L says bet 2 units on banker. Do we Skip? or Choose Banker, since there are "2 votes" for it?
4. just remember one question.. for the progression 1u2d we play all the way no cap right? ie. the bets can go to 10 or 15 units right?
thats all I can think of now
Thanks for quick reply again! -
BTW, one of our members is looking at what happens if you play all 3 NOR systems on your card and them simply select the lowest bet of the 3 for the table. Tests thus far are very exciting. It even won all but one shoe flat betting and even then the single losing shoe was only -1. Normal U1D2 won every test shoe thus far. But I'll start a new thread for this and give you the rules. We might call it Triple NOR or NOR3 for short. Your bets end up very low so high stakes players should like this. You don't win a lot but you win consistently. It might be a good way to play preshuffled cards. We'll see!
Interesting.. but which mode to start for each system? I assume use S40 Mode 2, OTB4L Mode 3 & F Mode 3? And Yes, please start the NOR3 thread
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Go ahead, try this
B112253111112422111211113836121
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BTW guys, When writing the NOR manual I changed the Modes from going by the total SAP count to going by the most recent SAP information. Both ways usually arrive at the same bet but not always. If you prefer the total SAP count all you need to to is go by which way the 3rd bet would have won most often. That way you are using traditional SAP. And BTW if your count is dead even I would avoid the 3rd bet altogether.
Hi, can you show us an example?
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Looks cool
Keep up the good work! -
In your example, that 4th bet would be OTR. If that OTR bet would have won last time a 4th bet came up, I would go ahead and make the 4 unit OTR bet. If it lost previously, or had not yet come up, I would go 1 unit OTR. I have really improved my results since adopting procedures to minimize the frequency of 4 unit bets. Because your 3rd bet lost in Mode 3, you now switch to Mode 2.
Ok, I think I got it. So Even If we win the OTR bet (4th Bet) with a 4 unit bet, we still switch to Mode 2 and continue from there right?
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Exactly! Which means you should have played Mode 2. So now, you do. The 3rd bet will win half the time in Mode 3. It just isn't OTR. How can you say the 3rd bet always loses in Mode 3? Think about it. You certainly do not make a 4 bet in Mode 3 if your 3 bet won.
Ok.. So lets say we are in mode 3 at the moment, and we just lost the 3rd Bet , We still proceed with the 4th Bet (4 Units)? or After the the 4th Bet we switch to Mode 2?
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I can see from your posts that many of you are not getting this right. Too many of you are saying that you play a Mode until your OTR bet loses. That isn't right at all.
You play a Mode until your 3rd bet loses regardless whether it was OTR or not.
Your 3rd bet is the bet you make after TWO lost bets in a row regardless if it is a 3 bet or a 1 bet or even a 2 bet or 0 bet for that matter. Your 3rd bet after two losses.
If your 3rd bet loses you change Modes regardless of which Mode you were in.
Take the shoe Keith just posted:
He started in Mode 3 and stayed in Mode 3 because his OTR bet always won. Wrong! He lost his third bet so he should have switched to Mode 2. Had he done that he would have won ALL of his 3 bets rather than losing all of them forcing 4 bets. THAT is the purpose of the rule - to keep 4 bets to a minimum. Had he played the 3rd bet rule correctly he would have had NO bets higher than 3.
Many of you are making that same mistake.
Now, it didn't happen in his shoe but if the 3rd bet rule is wrong 2 or 3 times starting out, you are best off to stay in Mode 2 and play a 12345 prog on your OTR bets.
Also you are best off to start in Mode 2 unless the shoe has already determined the Mode. This also helps to reduce bets higher than 3 and sometimes eliminate them altogether.
It is critically important that you understand this 3rd bet rule correctly. It is probably the most important rule in NOR.
Also, I don't mean to be picking on Keith but the shoe he posted happened to be the perfect example of the power of the 3rd bet rule.
Once he correctly decided on OTB4L and correctly decided to stay on all straight runs the 3rd bet rule alone would have kept his highest bet at 3 instead of 6 and his U1D1 betting would then have scored +21 instead of +6 or whatever it was.
I would think that would drive the whole point of the 3rd bet rule home for everyone.
Oops.. I'm a bit confused now.. how does one stay in Mode 3 then? since in Mode 3, there's gonna be a 4th Bet.. so 3rd Bet will always lose in mode 3? Sorry, quite confused atm
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Hi,
I've been thinking about it for a while, did anyone ever try using NOR on a roulette table?
We have 3 EC bets on a roulette table, and maybe if 2 out of the 3 are very bias towards NOR, can't we just cross reference and bet the inside numbers that are leaning strongly towards any of the NOR systems?
For example if colors looks like a S40 run and High Low looks like a F.. we just pick the 9 inside numbers that "cross" .. this way if we just flat bet, with a higher hit rate we should still do good right?
Of course in roulette we only need to worry about the Zero(s).. but if the hit rate is high enough, we can write it off I guess, or protect it with a single unit chip...
Any thoughts
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Sorry Witchy - I think you misunderstood me. SAP does not help determine the mode - it
makes the modes unnecessary. Modes are used to determine when to go OTR and how
long to stay OTR. For me the SAP count and LC and MC determine those bets, so there
is no need to worry about modes. As Ellis has said, it sounds a lot more difficult than it is
when playing
Paul
Hi, can you show an example?
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We had a member a few years back who quit us once he learned F3 because he thought it couldn't lose. Next he won a $25,000 tournament at Gold Strike playing solely F3. He continued playing it that night and pushed his winnings up to $40,000 - A good time to go home. But he didn't. He played F3 against new cards in the morning and lost the entire $40,000. Moral of that story? F usually performs poorly against new cards. They are usually too choppy and too even sided. Usually OTB4L performs best against new cards. I won nearly every shoe at Gold Strike for 3 years by just playing OTB4L against new cards early in the mornings. Tricks of the trade. F is a night time system - likes old cards.
Agreed, that's why my first purpose was to figure out all the weakness of the 3 systems, so If I spot the weakness coming, I would either exit or change plans
or stop betting. I had a similar story about my friend, He won 30k on the first day.. no idea what system he using, prolly no system.. on the 2nd day, he lost everything and then some more, he busted all his credit cards too... Greed kills.
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Aye, agreed. Upon closer examination, perhaps at best I could be used as an indicator to exit the shoe, but then my score will also tell me exit when I am up and not try to chase any fantasy..
Cheers!
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I've been thinking, I could be wrong due to my lack of experience. But hear me out.
Think most of us struggles with this, when things are not going well, do I switch system now?
I thought of an idea, not sure if someone thought of it before.
We do OR count from the beginning of the shoe right?
perhaps we can have another OR count just beside it for comparison. I call it the OR5 count, it is the difference between Current OR count vesus 5 hands ago (I'm using 5 just as an example, it could be any number)
For example at hand 20, the OR count is 5, we look back and compare it with hand 16 the OR count is 3.
So the OR5 count is (hand 20) 5 minus (hand 16) 3 = 2
Ok, what does this means , to me it means that the shoe is still heading the same direction (both are +ve OR count), if I am using S40 I should be safe.
Another example, at hand 60, the OR count is 13, at hand 56 the OR count is also 13.
So the OR5 count is (hand 60) 13 minus (hand 56) 13 = 0
Ok, to me this is a warning. S40 likes +ve OR count , our OR5 is 0 , something is not right?
maybe we should bail with the profit at hand since OR is 13, we should be making some profit with S40.
Ok.. not sure if its actually a useful indicator, perhaps someone can comment?
Cheers,
Andy
ps. I just realized, for this to work, the initial OR count must be accurate, I just went thru my exercise and spotted mistakes and it created chaos.
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Be careful with that. Your favorite should always be the best system for the shoe at hand.
aye.. I will be careful
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Correct again! F likes several things other than streak.
It likes SS (strong side)
It likes ZZ which is as choppy as you can get
It likes Sporadic (single) 1's
And it likes the 212s which is the second chopiest pattern.
F3 even beats the TTs (BB PP BB PP)(Terrible Twos)
What it likes is a lot more common than what it doesn't like - intermittent 2s and 3s on the weak side. That's it
Hehe, thanks.. Looks like its gonna be my favorite weapon of choice soon
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I think you might be missing one important rule: With F and only with F When you lose the first bet on the new side, you switch right back and continue on as usual waiting for the next 2 (or 3 depending on the Mode you are in). You also switch Modes in that same circumstance.
We found thru much testing that the switch back rule works far more often than it doesn't. With that rule 3 you will likely do even better on the shoes you are testing.
OTR is only 1 bet IF YOU LOSE but if you win you simply stay on the new run and that is now the SS.
Ok, I think I understand now.
So can I say that for F system and only F system, there is only 1 OTR Bet for mode 2? Meaning we are not doing 2 OTR Bets like S40 Mode 2. (Think this is the part that I am a little confused)
In F (Mode 2 or 3), if we win the OTR bet, we continue on the new side.
If we Lose the OTR Bet, we switch right back and continue on as usual waiting for the next 2 or 3 depending on which mode got switched as well.
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One more question about F modes, in particular Mode 2.
Can I say that basically F only has ONE OTR bet for either mode?
If that OTR bet won (When we switch sides), and we continue our bets now on the NEW side (regardless of modes), our progression starts from the bet right after the OTR bet?
for example now I am in mode 2, the following is happening
Prior to this, Player was the Strong Side..
Bet Player: 1 unit - Lost
Bet Player: 2 unit - Lost
(okay lost 2 bets, time to switch sides - since in mode 2)
Bet Banker: 3 units - Won
(Continue betting on Banker)
Bet Banker: 1 unit <-- My question is this , does this BET still counts as a Mode 2 OTR bet , or does it count as a normal SS (Strong Side) Bet?
I am asking because I realize it could mess up my count if I understand it wrongly.
Hope I didn't make it more confusing...
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Right! F2 originally stood for Follow the 2 which now is exactly the same as saying Mode 2.
Of course next we figured out that sometimes you are better off with F3.
But then we finally figured that what is really best is both in the same shoe and hope that one holds up best, which is usually the case.
We are startlingly smart!
I'm asking more questions on F, because I noticed that F surprises me! so far in my exercise, it holds up really well, even against shoes that have very high +OR count.. whereas OBT4L and even S40 struggles, maybe the shoes I am playing so far likes F alot.. (I need to clone myself so one copy of me can just test shoes whole day while the other one works)
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WOW! A truly excellent question for such a new member! This kid is going places!
F HATES intermittent 2s and 3s on the weak side. When you get this and the other two systems are also bad news the best thing you can do is stick with F2 and look for a good place to get the hell out.
*cough* I still learning.. so much to learn..
When you say F2, you mean F mode 2?
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Hi All,
I know the weakness of S40 is Straight Runs, for OBT4L is ZZ and Straight Runs, What does exactly does F hates?
Cheers,
Andy
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Correct CC. After an OTR win or lose your next bet is ALWAYS 1 unit regardless whether you are making another OTR bet of not. You want to have your full 1234 prog available in case the run goes 8. So it takes a 9 to beat us. On the other hand if you are seeing a lot of 8 or mores just stay OTR until you lose just like you do with F.
Just to clarify too.. from the Manual , somewhere in the "Review of OTR betting in general",
Quote.. "With S40, our rule is to attempt a second OTR bet when we are in Mode 2 because we got on the run so early. BUT, if that second OTR bet fails, next time we only stay OTR for ONE bet. In other words you are always letting the shoe tell you what to do."
So with reference to CdnChamer's question ( http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6637&p=30175#post30175 ) , when his S40 lose his second 1 unit OTR bet in Mode 2.. The Mode now still remains at Mode 2 but we only place ONE OTR bet instead of Two times when the next Mode 2 Situation pops again?
This is not considered Mode 2 failing right? which would call for a switch to Mode 3..
Hope I didn't sound too confusing
Review of the 4D Seminar video....
in BeatTheCasino.com Q and A Baccarat and Blackjack
Posted
I think they are not asking for hundreds of shoes.. maybe just 1 or 2 shoes to start with.. would that be too much to ask?