Guest Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 While Virtuoid at ImSpirit (Dave) seemed to me to be totally open minded about Baccarat and about me, I've since been told that no, he was initially out to prove that Baccarat can't be beat and that I was a fraud. I'm not sure who is right about that and prefer to believe he was honest and open minded. He certainly seemed a very nice and honest guy to me. But it makes no difference how it started. What is important is how it ended and it ended just fine for me. Here is the beginning of Virtuoid's third huge thread on the subject which goes on for 20 pages or so complete with photographs - a very interesting read. "ImSpiritEllisâ€™ NOR Seminar in PA and Field Trip to ACVirtuoid says:As I had briefly relayed in my previous two posts (Shadowing Ellis and Ellis and I Take on Atlantic City), Ellis convincingly demonstrated to me with real money in live play that he can consistently win at baccarat. Thanks to him, I am a little wealthier today in terms of chips, experience, and perspective.Ellis Teaching at NOR Seminar, Holiday Inn, Grantville, PA.At Saturdayâ€™s NOR seminar, Ellis explained the mechanics of his NOR methodology to about a dozen of the BTC attendees, a great bunch of guys (and one gal, Lorie, who was in charge of videoing the seminar) of all levels of playing experience. Some had never played baccarat, while others had been playing for over 20 years. Many had their own strategies and perspectives on the game, and they played accordingly. All were very friendly and happy to compare notes."And then the thread goes on for 20 pages of discussion.But you know, I've picked up many staunch enemies over the years. Most are involved in the BJ card counting trade. But some, I'm sure, are folks who simply can't read or apply an instruction manual. And one of these posted at the current end of the thread. Here is his post and our replys thus far. WARNING! It ain't pretty.Tom Says:June 12, 2013 at 5:50 am Ellis,Ellis it is a bunch of horseshit! Baccarat can not be beat. You guys all end up divorced lonely in a game what is 50-50. You see what you want to see. All systems works for a while. Even an ape can win at baccarat. Con artist Ellis. You have no money left Ellis, IF you had you would look a bit better. You look like miserable gambler. LOLReply E. Clifton Davis Says:June 12, 2013 at 6:56 am Hi Tom,The vast majority of people think I look pretty darn good for my age of 73. Most guess me at 10 or 15 or 20 years younger. Iâ€™m still a scratch golfer and play a mean game of 8 ball. I usually beat the kids. And my army uniform still fits perfectly.Your opinion of my looks is going to sound extremely tainted to the many people who know me. You ruin your own credibility especially when you resort to name calling because you have nothing constructive to say.Yes, the game odds ARE 50/50. But, in actual fact, the worldwide average player finds a way to lose at a far greater rate than the game odds together with the 1.25% commission would dictate.The fact that there is a way to lose at a greater rate than the odds dictate points to the fact for any thinking person that there must be an opposite way to play that wins more than the odds would dictate.That is the method I teach. But you must know how the game is presented and all games are not presented the same way. While far easier than learning winning BJ, It is still difficult for some. Some quit as soon as they see that study and work are involved. But most of my students stick with it and become winning players. They are happy to talk about it and post their casino shoes.One just posted his last 60 Vegas shoes. He won at a rate of 80% and his avg winning shoe was greater than his avg losing shoe. Simple good luck? Perhaps. Sure, luck could explain a winning shoe or 2 or even 3. But can luck explain an 80% win rate over weeks of play? â€“ and some of my students are at 90%.But Iâ€™m sure you will find a way to explain that as well. Maybe you could call them names. Maybe that would help your cause. NOT!Reply GriffMan Says:June 13, 2013 at 10:27 am Well Tom, Iâ€™m not a professional but Iâ€™m quite certain that looks have nothing to do with Baccarat skills. I wonder why you even bring that up?But at 73, Ellis is slim and trim and hotly admired by many women as some of the photographs here imply. Perhaps he looks a little rough because he is nearly twice the age of others photographed with him â€“ and more than twice the age of some. But what difference does that make?I donâ€™t know but maybe the 6 shoes posted here that he won at a 26% PA was just a stroke of incredible luck. I donâ€™t even know if that kind of luck is possible. Iâ€™ve never seen or even heard of such a thing myself.But just how far does luck extend? Two of his students just posted a total of 76 shoes played consecutively in Vegas and CA in several casinos. They both played to an 80% shoe win rate yet their avg losing shoe was less than their avg winning shoe. Does luck explain that too? I donâ€™t think so because it just keeps happening. This thread was not about the first or only time Eliis has done such a thing. Many of his students, including me, have watched him do it.I called Ellis and asked if I could watch him play just as Virtuoid did. I was immediately invited to Samâ€™s Town Tunica where I met with Ellis, his son in law Thurstle, and Ann who has been with Ellis since 1994. I remember everything that happened including a black Lexus SC400. Ellis and Thurstle played exactly alike while Ann explained what they were doing. An hour or so and maybe 3 shoes later, they play very fast, they both suddenly quit, up a total of exactly 140 units. Then Ellis treated us all to dinner and drinks at their finest restaurant.Once Ellis is in the game he is all business. He is in his element. The win came as no surprise to anyone including the dealer and pit boss, who all know him along with many of the players. This is just an everyday occurrence for Ellis. He does what we all wish we could do. He plays Bac and BJ professionally.And you know what, no one mentioned a thing about the win. There was no bragging, no sales pitch, no strings. It was purely an invitation to watch him play. Nothing more, nothing less â€“ just as he did with Virtuoid and countless others.But learning does require some intelligence and some work. Which reminds me â€“ check your grammar.â€ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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