thanks oz i do play a lot on mississippi gulf coast and kevin sent me the 4d book i still have problems diagnosing a shoe but getting better at it. i was asking about the 1 2 loop because i dont like up one down one. your bets and losses can add up quick. i plan on joining btc real soon. i figure it could save me some money. i go back to my post that i sent ellis on his site and its still there. i just dont understand how every system he comes up with is the holy grail. not very honest. thanks for your response and time