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OTB4L & TB4L vs NOR


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Greetings to all members, especially Prof Ellis and Keith Smith,

Had been playing OTB4L since it was taught to us by Prof Ellis.

Basic OTB4L, then ADOT, ADN and finally OTB4L assisted by SAP (Events Averages).

This lattest System is the Best, and the most consistent in beating the Casino on the Baccarat Table. But as Mreteuya the "Maverick" had experienced, it still looses to Straight & ZZ runs suddenly without warning. The SAP indicator for multiple 1's is lacking sometimes, preventing betting OTR earlier. So I was thinking of getting a second Indicator to confirm and better still if it can be a "Leading Indicator".

I got the idea from Mreteuya. He uses the "Events Averages" as an indicator for the mode to bet. If 1's & 4's are greater than 2's & 3's he plays RD1.

Now I uses this same formula to Indicate to me which is stronger between OTB4L & TB4L.

Shall I call this "D" for "Disparity". When the sum of 2's & 3's are greater than 1's & 4's, then OTB4L is strong, also the ratio between the two gives us an indication of the degree of "Disparity" . This looks like it is a more leading indicator. My THANKS to Mreteuya for this.

Hope I can insert the graphic from Words to illustrate:-

29 P B AV 1 2 3 4 Disparity

31 O 6 10 8 16 18/22 (2+3)/(1+4)

32 O 7 18/23

33 O 8 8 10 8 16 18/24

34 O 9 18/25

35 O 10 10 8 16 18/26

36 O

37 O

It shows the "Disparity" indicatos increases from 18/22 (OTB4L/TB4L) to 18/26.

Very good for ZZ runs.

So TB4L is very strong.

Dear Prof Ellis,

Re: Your NOR System by comparison, which is easier, because the

OTB4L/TB4l uses only two modes to bet, (TB4L covers straight and zz runs.

May I have your advice please.

THANKS,

Grat.

15 July 2011

Edited by Grat
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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member

Hi Grat,

you can do this simply adding an O/T count (OTBL: add +1 VS TBL: add -1).

When the count is "-" the shoe is streaky, if is "+" OTBL is favourite.

I normally check this too...

ciao

andrea

bacclover

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Greetings to all members, especially Prof Ellis and Keith Smith,

Had been playing OTB4L since it was taught to us by Prof Ellis.

Basic OTB4L, then ADOT, ADN and finally OTB4L assisted by SAP (Events Averages).

This lattest System is the Best, and the most consistent in beating the Casino on the Baccarat Table. But as Mreteuya the "Maverick" had experienced, it still looses to Straight & ZZ runs suddenly without warning. The SAP indicator for multiple 1's is lacking sometimes, preventing betting OTR earlier. So I was thinking of getting a second Indicator to confirm and better still if it can be a "Leading Indicator".

I got the idea from Mreteuya. He uses the "Events Averages" as an indicator for the mode to bet. If 1's & 4's are greater than 2's & 3's he plays RD1.

Now I uses this same formula to Indicate to me which is stronger between OTB4L & TB4L.

Shall I call this "D" for "Disparity". When the sum of 2's & 3's are greater than 1's & 4's, then OTB4L is strong, also the ratio between the two gives us an indication of the degree of "Disparity" . This looks like it is a more leading indicator. My THANKS to Mreteuya for this.

Hope I can insert the graphic from Words to illustrate:-

29 P B AV 1 2 3 4 Disparity

31 O 6 10 8 16 18/22 (2+3)/(1+4)

32 O 7 18/23

33 O 8 8 10 8 16 18/24

34 O 9 18/25

35 O 10 10 8 16 18/26

36 O

37 O

It shows the "Disparity" indicatos increases from 18/22 (OTB4L/TB4L) to 18/26.

Very good for ZZ runs.

So TB4L is very strong.

Dear Prof Ellis,

Re: Your NOR System by comparison, which is easier, because the

OTB4L/TB4l uses only two modes to bet, (TB4L covers straight and zz runs.

May I have your advice please.

THANKS,

Grat.

15 July 2011

Hi Grat! How have you been? Also I haven't heard anything from or about Mark for a long time now. How is he doing?

OTB4L/TB4L is an excellent way to play particulatly with a guiding count. The OT count that Andre mentions or an SAP count both work well and are mostly personal preference. I prefer the OT count for deciding OTB4L vs TB4L vs net betting the two because it addresses the issue most directly.

+ count = OTB4L

- count = TB4L

hovering 0 = Net bet

I played this way very successfully for many years. It covers 3 of the 4 shoe types very successfully.

The 4th shoe type is iffy. This is when the OT count takes large excursions into both + and -.

Therefore you MUST have a safety net: whether single side betting either OTB4L or TB4L or net betting the two you must stop betting after 2 or 3 lost prog bets and wait for a paper win - then hope that the paper win is not your only win. This works particularly well when net betting TB4L vs OTB4L because when one side suspends betting the other side is still winning albeit low bets. Here, the mandatory 2 comes in very handy.

It's a great way to play for those willing to put in the practice.

But, and here is what I must look at as a teacher:

Playing OTB4L/TB4L a player must be able to look at a tote board or score card and know automatically if it's TB4L, OTB4L, both or neither - neither meaning large excursions. The problem here is that shoes have no reason to favor any of these but they do have a reason to favor plain chop vs plain streak.

Most players have a hard enough time simply determining if a card or tote board favors chop, streak or neither W/O worrying about OTB4L and TB4L.

Plus, chop vs streak is far more meaningful than TB4L vs OTB4L.

Think about it! TB4L likes both straight and ZZ runs but real shoes tend to favor one or the other, not both. TB4L is a system of yesteryear when, in fact, shoes DID favor both. We used to say straight runs breed ZZ runs because where we saw long runs of one we also saw long runs of the other.

But, casinos quickly learned that they got killed by the the TB4L players with their most common shoe type. So they manipulated the shuffle to avoid TB4L shoes and their profits immediately soared nearly 900%.

Casinos quickly learned that their profits are highest in OTB4L shoes so this shoe type continues to emerge while TB4L continues to disappear.

So today we have every reason to include OTB4L in our base. But we no longer have ANY reason to include TB4L. Hence the disappearance of OTB4L/TB4L and the emergence of NOR.

NOR divides shoes into the 3 types we see TODAY, not the 3 types we used to see 20 years ago. NOR avoides TB4L like the plague because TODAY TB4L is the LEAST common shoe type and no longer the most common.

Sure, we keep OTB4L because that is the shoe type casinos love because it produces the highest profits.

But we replace TB4L with F. F ALSO beats both straight and ZZ runs but it also beats the 222s and the 212s which TB4L loses to. TB4L loses every single bet in the 222s. That is the kiss of death!

For the chop third of all shoes NOR uses S40 because it beats all 1's and 2s and 3s which is 87% of all events.

And for the Neutral third NOR retains OTB4L. You KNOW why - you played OTB4L. It does good doesn't it! But it does a hell of a lot better when you only use it for the third of the shoes it does BEST in.

So to answer your question directly: YES, I like NOR much better than OTB4L/TB4L for 3 reasons:

1.) NOR divides all shoes into the 3 types that actually exist today - NOT the 3 types that existed 20 years ago.

2.) Choppy, Streaky and Neutral are far easier for a player to distinguish than TB4L, OTB4L and Neutral.

3.) The hit rate with NOR is so much higher that we can drop U1D2 M2 altogeter and only go with much safer progs.

Grat, try NOR! I guarantee you'll like it much better than anything you ever played. It's safer, clearer and easier yet it has a much higher shoe win rate. It is the best approach there is for TODAY'S Baccarat.

Edited by Guest
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Guys, NOR is the last system I will ever design. No, not just because of my age (71). But because I simply can't beat it. Every system I ever designed I was always thinking of the next system - a better system. And I always came up with it. But when I was designing NOR, nothing else, nothing better came to mind. I soon realized that was because there is nothing better. Never will be.

Yeah, it was fun keeping up with the casinos. Every time they changed the game I produced a system that beat their lastest presentation. But they have run out of changes. Today's casino Bac presentation is stable. They can't do any better. Neither can I. That's all she wrote.

Today I'm concentrating ON making the NOR manual as clear as it can be made. That is a tall enough order. Members in good standing can get a hard copy, if they think they need one, at our production and shipping cost. Non members can buy one at $795 by far the cheapest I've ever sold any Bac Manual. Yet NOR is the best there ever was or ever will be.

As I look around on the internet all I see is stuff we discarded 25 or 30 years ago. These guys are seriously trying to reinvent the wheel. NOR has NO competition. I don't think it ever will.

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