Jump to content

blackjack winners handbook looking for some info.


Recommended Posts

Hi there,

Who can help me out?

I am looking for some info in a book I had before but I lost longtime ago.

It is correlating to betting setting a goal for 3 chips. after a few levels you end up on a dealer breaking table with fibonacci sequence,

according to shuffle csm's. When I face more than 6 players on a table I mostly play flat betting hitting stiffs when last cards are seemingly low. I am not using progressions with those situations except the oscar progression setting a goal +1. so basically using nbj strategy. flat betting with a progression sometimes using oscar. If losing 3 times in a row. I go back to base bet .

inclusive dealer so 5 spots at max inclusive dealer I use 112/123/134. what you guys think? about the idea here!

I thnk flat betting you win against shuffle csm machines. I tracked aces last time and those cards got still together too? Just an obeservation so one thing you can add is ace sequencing mostly with situation more than 5 spots.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi there,

Who can help me out?

I am looking for some info in a book I had before but I lost longtime ago.

It is correlating to betting setting a goal for 3 chips. after a few levels you end up on a dealer breaking table with fibonacci sequence,

according to shuffle csm's. When I face more than 6 players on a table I mostly play flat betting hitting stiffs when last cards are seemingly low. I am not using progressions with those situations except the oscar progression setting a goal +1. so basically using nbj strategy. flat betting with a progression sometimes using oscar. If losing 3 times in a row. I go back to base bet .

inclusive dealer so 5 spots at max inclusive dealer I use 112/123/134. what you guys think? about the idea here!

I thnk flat betting you win against shuffle csm machines. I tracked aces last time and those cards got still together too? Just an obeservation so one thing you can add is ace sequencing mostly with situation more than 5 spots.

Well hopefully I can help you out:

Some of what you say is good stuff and some isn't:

First, forget "Blackjack, A Winner's Handbook". It was written by Jerry Patterson more than 30 years ago. Jerry, now retired, was a great Marketeer but a horrible BJ player. I beat him handily every time I played with him. His betting sequence you speak of was very clever but lost. Dealer Breaking games went out of existence 30 years ago. You should never use any up as you win sequence in BJ. Perfect Basic Strategy has a hands won rate of only 43% overall. This makes up as you win suicidal, Fibonaci especially. It also makes flat betting suicidal.

Also forget playing with more than 4 players. Head to head gives you your best odds. Your odds go down as you add players. The players get killed in 6 and 7 player games. The casinos know this perfectly well. That is why they close tables to force 6 and 7 player games. And that is why 6 spot BJ tables have all but disappeared.

Your 112 123 134 are fine for 3rd base with random cards (new cards). But you need to add your most formidable random cards 3rd base prog of 146. That is where the money is!

Advantage betting (a high bet and a low bet only) is fine for 1st base play in mature (clumped) cards. You don't need a spread of more than 1-2. And you bet your hi bet only when the prior round ended with high cards. You are betting on a first card 10 which increases your odds to 74%.

Forget a side count of BJs and ignore them altogether. You only get 1 out of 42 hands making the 3/2 or less payout superfluous. Do the math.

You have totally ignored your greatest weapon - table selection:

Is the dealer breaking 1 out of 4 or close to it???

Is your selected position winning???

Are you avoiding 3 losses in a row???

You will find that your best odds are head to head from 3rd base against random (new) cards with a 3 bet up as you lose prog. Your tend to win your second bets and that is the name of the game. Everything after that is down hill.

Good luck! But the above advice creates its own luck!

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some points to be verify...

"You should never use any up as you win sequence in BJ. Perfect Basic Strategy has a hands won rate of only 43% overall. This makes up as you win suicidal, Fibonaci especially. It also makes flat betting suicidal"

1.

So comparing the up when you win strategy........cause dealer breaking games disappeared we delete all up when you win!

2.

7 players game in a csm will still see a lot of clumping, therefore flatbetting can be won cause the game is not random with this condition right? First base strategy loses with 6 spots inclusive dealer cause you get the ten but a low card as second card most of the time. Right?

"Also forget playing with more than 4 players"

3. tht means 3 players plus dealer is still OK means 4 players but anything above that do not play! Correct?

Thanks studying your questions means more questions but that is the game called living life! LOL Thanks in advance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some points to be verify...

"You should never use any up as you win sequence in BJ. Perfect Basic Strategy has a hands won rate of only 43% overall. This makes up as you win suicidal, Fibonaci especially. It also makes flat betting suicidal"

1.

So comparing the up when you win strategy........cause dealer breaking games disappeared we delete all up when you win!

2.

7 players game in a csm will still see a lot of clumping, therefore flatbetting can be won cause the game is not random with this condition right? First base strategy loses with 6 spots inclusive dealer cause you get the ten but a low card as second card most of the time. Right?

"Also forget playing with more than 4 players"

3. tht means 3 players plus dealer is still OK means 4 players but anything above that do not play! Correct?

Thanks studying your questions means more questions but that is the game called living life! LOL Thanks in advance

Your verifications are correct.

NBJ First Base play CAN win in 5,6 and 7 player games but it is an up hill battle. You get your first card tens but your second card is very iffy because that many players often uses up the whole clump before you get your second card. Besides, with that many players you are lucky if the dealer breaks one hand in 10 let alone the normal 1 hand in 4.

Regardless of the number of players I always say "verify that you in fact are getting a good second card most of the time. If not, leave."

NBJ 1st base is very sensitive to the number of players in the game. BUT the BEST number of players is still ONE.

NBJ First Base in the right window of clumping is the very BEST situation in BJ but recognize that it is a time sensitive event because head to head play WILL randomize the cards which ruins your First Base advantage.

I'm sure I set a world BJ record in Taj 1 wherein I won $10,000 in less than a half hour W/O betting more than $200 playing 8 deck head to head NBJ First Base - My low bet was 100 (1 unit) and my high bet was $200 (2 units) at a black table in the high stakes parlor. I picked the Taj because they can accommodate the largest audience in the main isle next to the high stakes room. I played the table closest to the isle so that my 250 students in attendance could watch. I sat at 3rd base but played the NBJ First Base strategy. This was so that I could switch to NBJ 3rd base if the cards got random enough. They came close but I never had to switch strategies. I bought in at 1 pile of 10 blacks and colored up for 11 big reds (the $1000 chip denomination). A player or 2 tried to get in the game but quit after 2 or 3 hands because they could not keep up with my lightening pace. (I play head to head faster than 600 hands per hour.)

But I no sooner got home in Saratogo Springs when I got a call from your friend Jerry Patterson. Unbelievably he said: "Ellis, I missed the whole event so could you please do it again for my players?" I said "sure".

So 2 weeks later I went back to the same table at the same time 4PM on the same day of the week - Saturday, against the same Dealer. In Taj 2, Jerry and Nancy Patterson were standing right behind me trying to follow every play They had 250 of their own players watching every play. This time I hit $10,000 in about 20 minutes, colored up for 11 big reds and headed to the cashier with Jerry and Nancy in tow. Nancy said, "You play so fast I couldn't follow a single hand but I CAN count chips - What you just did is impossible!" Whereupon I said "Not really. I started out with ten $100 bills. I've got 11 big reds in my hand - Watch me cash them in for 110 $100 bills." Jerry bought dinner in the Taj's best restaurant.

I doubt anyone will ever break that record which I set twice. That pretty much rules out luck, doesn't it. I'm sure Nancy and Jerry will reluctantly verify the whole thing. But recognize that they are teaching competitors. - or were, to be more precise. I'm pretty close to full retirement myself.

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fabulous! I am learning that is why I ask so much. I guess you do not mind that. I hope I can make it one day soon about a 1.5 year span from now visiting you. maybe I can stay with you for a certain time paying some rent. Anyway. I am reading your reply and I have some questions Of course will this ever stop my questions procedures. lol

1.

"NBJ First Base in the right window of clumping is the very BEST situation in BJ but recognize that it is a time sensitive event because head to head play WILL randomize the cards which ruins your First Base advantage."

This means that we can use first base by observing while we intent to play third base strategy. I think in csm's headsup will very quick randomnize the cards therefore it should be a bit carefully taken when playing first base nbj. So it mainly will work in shoe games cause it takes much longer to randomnize those cards possible. Correct?

2.

To shuffle one deck of cards takes about 7x in order to make it randomn so playing headsup against a shoe will take how long to make that correctly random?t?

3.

Some other observations and thoughts after I played in lisbon yesterday. won with a 50% ROI. Any number of spots I mention is inclusive dealer relating to the confirmations I ask for to be correct written down here.

  • 1st base nbj 5 spots works best / bigger than 5 spots tough!

  • We randomnize only headsup
    • >4 spots negative progressions do not well.

    9 (2spots) and suits best for negative progessions.

  • 3-4 spots games NBJ playing strategy comes in play using also negative progressions.

Thanks Ellis keep you updated. I can only play against csm here with 6 decks inside.

Look forward to your answer!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some other observations and thoughts after I played in lisbon yesterday. won with a 50% ROI. Any number of spots I mention is inclusive dealer relating to the confirmations I ask for to be correct written down here.

•1st base nbj 5 spots works best / Bigger than 5 spots tough!

•We randomnize only headsup. Bigger than 4 spots negative progressions do not well.

  • 2 spots up to 4 spots suits best for negative progesessions.

•3-4 spots games NBJ playing strategy comes in play using also negative progressions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fabulous! I am learning that is why I ask so much. I guess you do not mind that. I hope I can make it one day soon about a 1.5 year span from now visiting you. maybe I can stay with you for a certain time paying some rent. Anyway. I am reading your reply and I have some questions Of course will this ever stop my questions procedures. lol

1.

"NBJ First Base in the right window of clumping is the very BEST situation in BJ but recognize that it is a time sensitive event because head to head play WILL randomize the cards which ruins your First Base advantage."

This means that we can use first base by observing while we intent to play third base strategy. I think in csm's headsup will very quick randomnize the cards therefore it should be a bit carefully taken when playing first base nbj. So it mainly will work in shoe games cause it takes much longer to randomnize those cards possible. Correct?

2.

To shuffle one deck of cards takes about 7x in order to make it randomn so playing headsup against a shoe will take how long to make that correctly random?t?

3.

Some other observations and thoughts after I played in lisbon yesterday. won with a 50% ROI. Any number of spots I mention is inclusive dealer relating to the confirmations I ask for to be correct written down here.

  • 1st base nbj 5 spots works best / bigger than 5 spots tough!

  • We randomnize only headsup
    • >4 spots negative progressions do not well.

    9 (2spots) and suits best for negative progessions.

  • 3-4 spots games NBJ playing strategy comes in play using also negative progressions.

Thanks Ellis keep you updated. I can only play against csm here with 6 decks inside.

Look forward to your answer!

Well you are a very quick study with a keen mind and an excellent ability to condence my ramblings to concise playing points. So I don't mind answering you questions as time permits.

Correct, 1 deck takes 7 shuffles to randomize. 2 decks takes 7 X 7 and 3 decks 7 X 7 X 7, etc.

CSMs (continuous shuffle machines) are designed to totally defeat card counters. They have little effect on NBJ.

Recognize that anyone can design a machine that produces random cards. The trick is to design machines that preserve clumping. Look at it from the casino's point of view: Basic Strategy alone beats random cards so casinos must AVOID random cards. The first shuffle machines were discarded BECAUSE they produced random cards. Casinos need machines that duplicate hand shuffling and thereby preserve clumping and ruin Basic Strategy. They are clever bastards.

Nevertheless, head to head play STILL randomizes cards even with csm machines. The fact that your machines are CSM does not bother the NBJ player at all. We still play First Base against clumped cards and 3rd base against random. That is where your main advantage comes from.

We don't really give a hoot how many tens remain. We react to the card fall at hand. With CSMs ALL the tens remain. But the card fall at hand is not effected by the CSM fact.

We have a top player who plays CSM's head to head for low stakes until they are random - then plays NBJ 3rd base for VERY high stakes against those random cards. He never loses. You might try that.

Your above points are basically correct. So lets not muddy the waters right now with a bunch of if, ands or buts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"We have a top player who plays CSM's head to head for low stakes until they are random - then plays NBJ 3rd base for VERY high stakes against those random cards. He never loses. You might try that".

Thanks for the confirmations you gave me, it is good to know I am pretty close to being right. One thing though here with the player winning all thetime in the quote notified here.

The guy plays csm head to head for low stakes until they are random. my question is....

  • Does he play 1-2 first base headsup until random and than the usual stuff?

Can I contact him here and what is his name at the forum, cause i am playing csm here nothing else?

Thanks and for you all the best in the new year!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As you said............playing headsup!

You don't need to see a lot of cards to know if they are random:

Are high vs lows coming out pretty much intermittantly or in clumps either clean or dirty?

If random, go right into your 123. (If not, it's best to leave.)

If doing well with 123, quickly advance to 134.

The key is: Are you winning your second bets most of the time???

If you are and you haven't lost 3 in a row, advance to 146.

One question about this part and that is why I am intriged how the winning player who plays headsup will bet the view hands before he decide to leave or adapt into random play cause it request the qualification of randomness.

If random we go immidiately int 123. But how do we bet from the first hand before we qualify the game as random or not, just flat. I am not sure you answered that, One way of knowing if things are random is you use nbj players strategy from the moment you sit down headsup and if you bust all the time you know it could be close to a random game.

Thanks again I am asking those questions cause I am heading to lisbon tonight for a session right now.

:smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As you said............playing headsup!

You don't need to see a lot of cards to know if they are random:

Are high vs lows coming out pretty much intermittantly or in clumps either clean or dirty?

If random, go right into your 123. (If not, it's best to leave.)

If doing well with 123, quickly advance to 134.

The key is: Are you winning your second bets most of the time???

If you are and you haven't lost 3 in a row, advance to 146.

One question about this part and that is why I am intriged how the winning player who plays headsup will bet the view hands before he decide to leave or adapt into random play cause it request the qualification of randomness.

If random we go immidiately int 123. But how do we bet from the first hand before we qualify the game as random or not, just flat. I am not sure you answered that, One way of knowing if things are random is you use nbj players strategy from the moment you sit down headsup and if you bust all the time you know it could be close to a random game.

Thanks again I am asking those questions cause I am heading to lisbon tonight for a session right now.

:smile:

You don't have the option of waiting out a few hands as you normally would because no one else is at the table.

If the cards are new you can assume they are random. But you don't always know. So simply flat bet at table min. until you know whether the cards are random or not.

I don't know why you make this statement: "One way of knowing if things are random is you use nbj players strategy from the moment you sit down headsup and if you bust all the time you know it could be close to a random game."

That makes no sense to me. In random cards NBJ plays Basic Strategy from 3rd base. There is no coorelation between breaking and random cards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"We have a top player who plays CSM's head to head for low stakes until they are random - then plays NBJ 3rd base for VERY high stakes against those random cards. He never loses. You might try that".

Thanks for the confirmations you gave me, it is good to know I am pretty close to being right. One thing though here with the player winning all thetime in the quote notified here.

The guy plays csm head to head for low stakes until they are random. my question is....

  • Does he play 1-2 first base headsup until random and than the usual stuff?

Can I contact him here and what is his name at the forum, cause i am playing csm here nothing else?

Thanks and for you all the best in the new year!

Well, you can try: PM "Mad dog". He seldom replies but he did speak at our last Vegas seminar. He enjoys his secrecy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I don't know why you make this statement: "One way of knowing if things are random is you use nbj players strategy from the moment you sit down headsup and if you bust all the time you know it could be close to a random game."

what I meant is that NBj playing strategy( hit when lows are running and so on) will only works against non random cards therefore if using it hitting versus low cards my 12-16 and sometimes 17, busting than it could mean the cards could be random, therefore i should relate now on basic strategy. Therefore I thought that because of busting the game would not be random going along observing clumped cards. It is good you correct the things what does not make sense, it is the way the learning curve goes. But I have noticed your point that there is no correlation between breaking and random cards. I had this spin going on in my head cause I think about the game a lot.

About my sessions yesterday. funny that two tables were full. and there your advise was waiting for me. therefore I opened a table. You know how it goes...........People are afraid being responsible and only dare to play when blaming others, so I could not sit there for long alone other than 10 minutes people popping in and out.

I bought in with 12 chips. The dealer washed the cards, than did an easy shuffle dividing in two parts and riffled the cards 3 times. than they went in the machine.

"If the cards are new you can assume they are random". Please correct me here but I understood new cards are clumpedll cause they do not shuffle them right, there fore I assume the cards are not random because I was the first playing with this cards. I have to play them random what goes pretty fast playing against the csm headsup.

I indeed flat bet assuming the cards are somewhat clumped because of this situation and hitting versus the low cards pretty much. the problem was that people came in and out the game making the game going from headsup to 5 spots blackjack ( inclusive dealer spot) making me only flat bet for the evening leaving this unfavourable situation pretty fast. I am not playing more than 4 spots cause against like you agreed on my statements earlier other than flat betting the negative progressions are good versus a random game. From 5 spots it started to over clump again as I call it what will hurt my nbj betting. I won 30% roi flatbetting cause I did not got the situation right to start the 112-123-134 thing going on.

Thanks Ellis and may god bless you with a great new year! I have invited you to my facebook yesterday. And thanks for the name. i will try to get through him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use