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At my local casino they have Mini Baccarat where we cannot touch the cards and they shuffle by hand and deal from shoes. I'm not sure how often they replace the cards.

Would NOR or MDB work in this situation?

The table limits are usually only 10-100 but I enjoy playing there and my concern is that if they see me writing down things (SAP count OR count etc) then they will ask me to leave. Should I be worried about this?

Thanks for any insights.

777

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Ha 777, it is refreshing to have a new member who is also a beginner.

First, welcome to the forum!

We all learned on the very game you describe and are therefore very familiar with it.

NOR was designed for that game and beats it better than any approach in the world. It is tried and true.

And there are NOR advancements already in this forum such as S40M1 you can add to your arsenal.

The only drawback with NOR is it is not 100% mechanical. There are occassional decisions to be made.

We attempt tp help you with those decisions with the OR count - extremely valuable in the very game you will be playing. Learn how to use it.

Nothing we do such as OR counts or SAP counts can be considered illegal. Not even close. No worries. Nobody here was ever ejected for doing what we teach.

MDB is like a purely mechanical version of NOR. It is easier and faster to learn and does well in your game. Maybe not quite as well as an accomplished NOR player but good enough to make a million dollars. Therefore you might start with MDB to get the ball rolling.

If your schedule permits, you'll want to thoroughly study your casino. All casinos have weaknesses.

For instance you want to check out brand new cards in the morning right after the new cards prep. Often a casino's standardcard prep makes new regular cards particularly susceptible to one of the 3 NOR systems - particularly OTB4L and sometimes S40. Almost never F.

For instance, I won every morning session for 3 years at Gold Strike, Tunica playing OTB4L against new cards (first 2 or 3 shoes)

betting U1D2 and averaging 20 units per shoe. I merely followed their table opening routine.

F or the better S40M1 tend to be night time systems.

But my point is it is valuable to know your casino and its routines to find such casino weaknesses.

It won't be long before your casino pegs you as the best player there - both by the casino and by the players.

Unlike BJ, No one anywhere has ever been ejected for winning at Baccarat.

So perhaps you will want to learn MDB first. But eventually you will want to learn NOR.

But stay away from Vegas until you learn MDB+. Preshuffled cards are a whole different ball game.

If you intend to attend the upcoming Las Vegas Crawl, let a more accomplished MDB+ player play your money.

Just join one of the buy in teams. That is what they are for.

I'd wish you good luck but luck hasn't got a thing to do with it. Winning comes from study and practice.

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Ha 777, it is refreshing to have a new member who is also a beginner.

First, welcome to the forum!

We all learned on the very game you describe and are therefore very familiar with it.

NOR was designed for that game and beats it better than any approach in the world. It is tried and true.

And there are NOR advancements already in this forum such as S40M1 you can add to your arsenal.

The only drawback with NOR is it is not 100% mechanical. There are occassional decisions to be made.

We attempt tp help you with those decisions with the OR count - extremely valuable in the very game you will be playing. Learn how to use it.

Nothing we do such as OR counts or SAP counts can be considered illegal. Not even close. No worries. Nobody here was ever ejected for doing what we teach.

MDB is like a purely mechanical version of NOR. It is easier and faster to learn and does well in your game. Maybe not quite as well as an accomplished NOR player but good enough to make a million dollars. Therefore you might start with MDB to get the ball rolling.

If your schedule permits, you'll want to thoroughly study your casino. All casinos have weaknesses.

For instance you want to check out brand new cards in the morning right after the new cards prep. Often a casino's standardcard prep makes new regular cards particularly susceptible to one of the 3 NOR systems - particularly OTB4L and sometimes S40. Almost never F.

For instance, I won every morning session for 3 years at Gold Strike, Tunica playing OTB4L against new cards (first 2 or 3 shoes)

betting U1D2 and averaging 20 units per shoe. I merely followed their table opening routine.

F or the better S40M1 tend to be night time systems.

But my point is it is valuable to know your casino and its routines to find such casino weaknesses.

It won't be long before your casino pegs you as the best player there - both by the casino and by the players.

Unlike BJ, No one anywhere has ever been ejected for winning at Baccarat.

So perhaps you will want to learn MDB first. But eventually you will want to learn NOR.

But stay away from Vegas until you learn MDB+. Preshuffled cards are a whole different ball game.

If you intend to attend the upcoming Las Vegas Crawl, let a more accomplished MDB+ player play your money.

Just join one of the buy in teams. That is what they are for.

I'd wish you good luck but luck hasn't got a thing to do with it. Winning comes from study and practice.

Ellis,

Would that be true of all casino's........the cards would favor OTBL , for the first couple of shoe's after the opening card prep ?

And could you expond on why that is .

And if new prepped cards , do in fact favor , OTBL.....than one could just be there for the opening bell , pickup + 5 and be done for the day ! :)

I know what time, my casino , just a couple miles down the road , does their card prep , same routine daily,so just maybe I could slip in and out , quickly everyday with a 4 or 5 chip win and be gone before the heavy smokers start to congregate around the tables , polluting everyone's lungs ! :) Crazy , no sense , health destroying , smoking habit ! Poor dealers , subject to that enviroment !!

And lastly....up one on a loss and down two on a win (U1D2) is best ? How would Norm's , 2Hi , do ? Seems Norm was the most successful here on the forum and believe the 2Hi is what he used no matter what method he played ? I think ? Maybe Papajoe could address that question also ? They often played together and were good friends !

Thanks Ellis,

johnny/albuquerque

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Ellis,

Would that be true of all casino's........the cards would favor OTBL , for the first couple of shoe's after the opening card prep ?

And could you expond on why that is .

And if new prepped cards , do in fact favor , OTBL.....than one could just be there for the opening bell , pickup + 5 and be done for the day ! :)

I know what time, my casino , just a couple miles down the road , does their card prep , same routine daily,so just maybe I could slip in and out , quickly everyday with a 4 or 5 chip win and be gone before the heavy smokers start to congregate around the tables , polluting everyone's lungs ! :) Crazy , no sense , health destroying , smoking habit ! Poor dealers , subject to that enviroment !!

And lastly....up one on a loss and down two on a win (U1D2) is best ? How would Norm's , 2Hi , do ? Seems Norm was the most successful here on the forum and believe the 2Hi is what he used no matter what method he played ? I think ? Maybe Papajoe could address that question also ? They often played together and were good friends !

Thanks Ellis,

johnny/albuquerque

Two totally different subjects. Lets take card preps first.

Most players don't even realize there is such a thing as a card prep because they are never there at 7AM except occassionally they are still there from the night before.

Playing full time I made about 90% of my total winnings before 12 noon because I was ALWAYS there at 7am studying the card preps both BJ and Baccarat.

Recognize that in both 8 deck BJ and Baccarat, new cards come to the table in 8 sealed decks in boxed card order.

They can't just use a standard shuffle because it would leave large remnants of boxed card order making the cards highly predictable.

So they start the day wiith the morning card prep - often supervised.

I studied the card preps in A.C every day for 3 years and learned a lot. There are lots of things to look for. But I'll give you just two examples, one for BJ and one for Baccarat.

So both start out with 8 decks on the table in boxed card order - you know - A2345 etc. spades, diamonds, hearts, clubs. Recognize that an entire pit uses the same card prep.

8 deck BJ: One of the common preps is to reverse the card order of 4 of the decks - every other deck. They simply take the top card off and start a new pile, then the next card then the next and so on. Then they shuffle each of the reversed decks with each of the regular decks. Then they do one of the regular BJ shuffles.

Whenever I saw that BJ card prep I would definitely play that pit for high stakes - Because it produces a hi lo count that hovers 0. That produces the highest dealer break rate and the highest Basic Strategy hit rate. So I played 3rd base with a 146 progression - never fails with new cards prepped that way. So I changed to an unopened table after each shoe or two so I'm always playing brand new cards.

Why 146? Because with a 0 count the third base player strongly tends to win every other hand and seldom loses 3 in a row. Game over!

Baccarat: The morning card prep always involves a wash - they spread the cards over the whole table and mesmerize them with their hands. Always all 8 decks in big Bac but often 2 decks at a time in Mini bac

In Big Bac a 60 second wash means chop and a 30 second wash means streak. About 45 seconds is OTB4L.

In mini bac, washing 2 decks at a time usually means OTB4L but a really good wash can produce S40. A quick superfluous prep can cause streak but casinos usually don't want streak.

OTB4L ? No, not always but USUALLY.

So right, you only play new cards and as they open tables you move to new tables so that you are always playing brand new cards or 1 shoe old.

Whatever the card prep is producing - that's what it is producing - usually OTB4L, sometimes S40, almost never streak.

I did this at Gold Strike Tunica 3-4 days a week for 3 years. I played U1D2 to +20 - usually OTB4L but sometimes S40. I played mostly head to head but sometimes with one or two other players. I won almost every shoe for three years - just using my old BJ trick of watching the wash and only playing new cards.

I strictly played QUARTERS. Black would have got me thrown out. I was already barred from BJ.

Yes, absolutely! You can just play new cards right after the morning card prep head to head and get 8 - 10 shoes in just following new tables opening up.

Head to head a full shoe takes less than a half hour.

I've told this story many times on this forum. I'm surprised you never noticed it before.

Now, Norm:

I also played with Norm and correct, Norm played his 1,2 loop.

He started the shoe out with a series of 1 bets until he caught a trend.

Then he either played 1212 etc win or lose. Or 2121 win or lose. So his whole talent was knowing when to switch from 12 to 21. His objective was to win every other bet and his skill was making his winning bets the 2 bets.

Recognize that win you bet 12 win or lose, your unit is actually 1.5. See that? So yes, Norm won an average of 6 $5000 chips for those posted 60 shoes which was an average of 4 1.5 units per shoe.

So yes, playing the same preshuffled cards shoe after shoe all day lang at the same table - sometimes also all night long, Norm developed a unique skill for when to bet 12 and when to bet 21 and when to just flat bet at 1.

So are those triggers teachable? You can't teach a feel.

It is like trying to teach a golf swing. You can tell a player mechanically what to do but you can't develop his "feel" for him. Top golfers play by feel, not by some mechanical maneuver.

I could watch Norm play and still not see what triggered 21 vs 12. And Norm's attempts to describe it left you scratching your head. He was playing by "feel".

Right, maybe PJ could add to this - maybe not.

BTW, when Norm tried this with Florida and Gulf Coast regular cards, the feel escaped him. But at MGM, it didn't escape him - God Rest.

But he proved one thing for sure - you CAN win with the right formula at the right time.

Oh, I forgot your other question. Why do freshly prepped cards usually favor OTB4L ???

Recognize that casinos have millions of hours of shuffle technology developed in BJ.

Starting with a known card order (boxed card order) they can make a Baccarat shoe favor whatever they want. That is a given!

Well they usually want to favor OTB4L to get their day started out right.

Why? Because casinos ALWAYS win OTB4L shoes because nobody knows how to play OTB4L shoes. Even experienced players have no clue.

That is why WE are nearly always the ONLY winners after an OTB4L shoe.

But we are too few for the casinos to bother about as long as they can beat everybody else. And they do!

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