Shuffle Machines

[Mad Dog]

I hate them. I hate them with all of my hate.

Why?

Because I can't watch the shuffle. I can't tell if some counter-measure is being applied. For example, if I am playing NBJ and beating a CSM, it is conceivable for the casino to command the machine to shuffle differently. All of a sudden I am playing against a totally different situation. They could have commanded the CSM to produce completely random cards, and I wouldn't know jack and then I lose my progression. I have no idea what they can or can't do with those machines.

I really prefer hand shuffled games, but they are getting harder to find.

[aegis21]

I hate them. I hate them with all of my hate.

Why?

Because I can't watch the shuffle. I can't tell if some counter-measure is being applied. For example, if I am playing NBJ and beating a CSM, it is conceivable for the casino to command the machine to shuffle differently. All of a sudden I am playing against a totally different situation. They could have commanded the CSM to produce completely random cards, and I wouldn't know jack and then I lose my progression. I have no idea what they can or can't do with those machines.

I really prefer hand shuffled games, but they are getting harder to find.

What if we started to place doubt in the players head that the casinos that use shuffle machines and program them for their advantage! If this caught on and players avoided shuffle machine the casinos would stop using them! The time is now,the future is here, in these economic times we can make a difference! :arms:

[Mad Dog]

Attention on deck. We are now boycotting all machine shuffled games.

[aegis21]

Attention on deck. We are now boycotting all machine shuffled games.

ok I got carried away with the inauguration today! But if we could just get an article in Casino City Times about being suspicious of shuffle machines and the game could be altered by these machines.

But maybe fixing the economy and ending terrorism would be easier! LOL

[WWWWWWW]

Yo Ones,

I too hate shuffle machines. Our local Fresno, Ca. Indian Casino's are full of them. My local Indian Casino, " THE PALACE.COM ",... located at Lemoore , Ca., to there credit, has pulled 8 machines and replaced them with 8 deck shoes.

Two nights ago, I was using Mad Dog's ideas on his playing, finding a table min. table ( 5.00 to 300.00 at Lemoore ) and waiting until the dealer stops having constant 10 value up cards and busts or loses one out of three hands.... a waiting game.

I was up almost 100.00 using my neg. progression of 5,8,13,21,35,50,75 and 100.00.... then the dealer went on a streak where sho could do no wrong....she had 3 BJ's in a row and turned all her up-cards into 20's or 21's ...jesssss.... I lost my 5.00,8.00,13.00,20.00 AND 40.00 BETS BACK TO BACK ! ....the damn auto shufflers !

Saying... " this is bull " ...I bolted to a new table. I was the only player. I would bet one 5.00 bet and if I lost it, I would play two spots at 5.00 each... lose them both...I would play 3 spots at 5.00 each.... lose all three... bet 5 spots at table min. 5.00 ...lose the 5 spots ...betted up all 7 spots.

I recovered my loses and found myself up 33% on my $ 400.00 buy-in ...so, I bolted home... with the win.

I do not know another Casino that will allow you to bet all 7-spots at the table min.'s ? ...Lemoore will !

The player advantage has got to be positive ...think about it.... fishing seven times for DD's, BJ's and splits....instead of a single bet of 35.00 ....thoughts ?

WWWWWWW

PS: I scammed the local Casino promo, on XMAS Day, for + $ 5,000.00...and I DID NOT have to play much to do it... will post how I did it later...:arms:

[ECD]

I'm certainly not going to defend shuffle machines but they do have one advantage I like. Consistency. In A.C. they used to parade new dealers in my games. No two dealers shuffle exactly alike and I was constantly having to get used to the intracacies of a new dealer. Once they even tried changing dealers every hand so they could burn a card each hand. I beat them anyway and upon leaving I told the pit boss "I hope you don't think I'm going to tip everybody!"

[Nightshifter]

What if we started to place doubt in the players head that the casinos that use shuffle machines and program them for their advantage! If this caught on and players avoided shuffle machine the casinos would stop using them! The time is now,the future is here, in these economic times we can make a difference! :arms:

The tweening can be set for these machines, although they claim it changes round to round. But it does promote clumping or can neutralize a deck.

So you can have tight tweens or large tweens. Larger the tween, the greater the clumping.. esp. with a full table! One would argue if this can be set from the players card computer that's in front of the table.. makes you wonder.. then if that's the case, who says the eye in the sky can't do it also. They have cameras and mics on you 24-7! But if the shuffle machine fails to do what it is suppose to do, the pitboss or floorman comes over and yanks the 8 decks out and the dealer shuffles manually ... or in otherwords.. if the table was dumping or you are just winning too much, they try to break the pattern But since casinos are 100% honest , they would never do anything to manipulate the shoe now would they...

[killer2000]

shuffling machine is a machine for randomly shuffling packs of playing cards.

Because standard shuffling techniques are seen as weak, and in order to avoid "inside jobs" where employees collaborate with gamblers by performing inadequate shuffles, many casinos employ automatic shuffling machines to shuffle the cards before dealing. These machines are also used to lessen repetitive motion stress injuries to a dealer.

Shuffling machines have to be carefully designed, as they can generate biased shuffles otherwise: the most recent shuffling machines are computer-controlled. The randomness or otherwise of cards produced from automatic shuffling machines is the subject of considerable interest to both gamblers and casinos.

Shuffling machines come in two main varieties: continuous shufflers, which shuffle one or more packs continuously, and batch shufflers, which shuffle an entire single pack in a single operation. Batch shufflers are more expensive, but can avoid the problems associated with some continuous shufflers, whereby the shuffling operation only slowly changes the state of the deck, and new cards may be taken before shuffling has sufficiently randomized the pack, allowing some players to "shuffle track" cards through the shuffling process.

A widely reported, but unpublished, study by Persi Diaconis and Susan Holmes in 2000 resulted in the redesign of many shuffling machines. SIAM News later published a reasonably detailed discussion of its results.

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[ECD]

Sath and Killer, it's a far more complex subject than you suspect:

Basic Strategy beats truly random cards to the tune of 6%. If shuffle machines produced random cards the casinos would have already gone broke. What is important to the casino bottom line is the degree of NON randomness. That is what makes shuffle machine design so complex. That is also what makes Basic Strategy lose against shuffle machines.

[b robert]

Ellis;

Where does your 6% figure come from? Are you sure you don't mean .6%?

I have used a random number simulator and have never come close to 6% even with counting methods and playing one deck.

[ECD]

Ellis;

Where does your 6% figure come from? Are you sure you don't mean .6%?

I have used a random number simulator and have never come close to 6% even with counting methods and playing one deck.

No Robert, 6% is correct! BJ simulators also pick up the break cards first.

If you go back and read the original Basic Strategy books by James O Thorp and company you'll see that they computed ORIGINAL Basic Strategy to have a 6% Player Advantage in single deck with no cut off which was the only game at that time. I seriously doubt that Thorp made any mistakes.

However, when his player Kenny Uston put Thorp's Basic Strategy to actual casino practice he could only achieve 0.6%. That is where that number came from. Thorp tried in vain to find the missing 5.5%. He never found it. But I DID many years later in 1986. My findings were published then in Eddie Olsen 's BJ Confidential.

The missing 5.5% is derived from the fact that, even then, the casino picked up the BREAK CARD's FIRST, then the non break cards, very effectively clumping the cards in the discard shoe. Normal hand shuffling did not diffuse the resulting clumping. It increased it. Highs shuffled with highs result in longer clumps of highs. Same with lows. Clumping subverts Basic Strategy. Basic Strategy was computed with RANDOM cards which you will NEVER see in a casino or a BJ simulator. Thorp failed to recognize that fact.

Now, the reason you only see .5%, or so, against a R.G is because B.S. and card counting were watered down by subsequent books trying (but never achieving) to accommodate multiple decks. Thorp was far more sophisticated. EACH card had a value. Hi Lo Neutral was far too ambiguous for Thorp.

Soft doubles and other subsequent additions to Thorp's original basic strategy also ate into Thorp's original 6%.

Don't believe every book you read. Most of them are pure B.S. and I don't mean basic strategy. If you want the facts, read NBJ.

Edited July 27, 2009 by ECD