NOR Roulette and Vegas BJ

[Guest]

Guys, Keith has put up a registration page for a Vegas seminar Sunday Aug 11, 10 to 6 PM.

First, I'm happy to see a seminar on Sunday rather than Saturday. It is so much easier to do casino demonstrations on Sunday night rather than Sat. night. The casinos are so crowded on Sat night that table selection, the most important element to both games, is out the window completely. On Sat night I have to play wherever I'm lucky enough to find a seat. That is no way to conduct a proper casino demonstration. Sun night is a whole different story.

The first half of the seminar will be on Vegas BJ. There are certain tricks of the trade that apply to Vegas BJ - certain casinos - certain tables - certain games and certain play and betting strategies that apply to Vegas but Vegas BJ is VERY beatable with a little guidance. I've won every day I played Vegas BJ. In fact, as Keith will attest, my Rewards page at Flamingo says that while I am a very frequent player, I have not had a losing day in any of their 40 casinos in the last 20 years. Ha, I wish they'd give me a copy! I've got a great page in the blue book in A.C. as well. It got me barred from BJ in every casino in A.C.

But A.C. BJ is one thing. Vegas BJ is another. At the Vegas seminar I'm going to concentrate on Vegas BJ.

This is a MUST seminar for experienced BJ players but even inexperienced BJ players can get a lot out of it. Vegas BJ is easy to beat once you know what to do and where to do it. The way I'll explain it, you really don't even need to know Basic Strategy. I'll have you playing it W/O knowing it!

The 2nd half of the seminar will be on Roulette. Yes, you can play NOR on Roulette! The advantage is that you can play 3 cards at the same time! No, it is not difficult at all because Roulette gives you plenty of time. And at least one card, usually two, and sometimes all 3, must win!

Plus Keith and Ron have a cute system that won every time for several years. Plus I have a lines system that does extremely well.

So we will definitely launch a Roulette support forum. Members have been asking us to do that for years. Well, here we are! And we are kicking the whole thing off with a very informative Vegas Seminar. See you there!

[Guest]

BTW, I should mention that the moment I saw Keith and Ron's Roulette approach for the first time, I immediately saw a very obvious but huge improvement that could very easily be made to it in spite of the fact that they were already winning every game they played! This improvement would greatly improve their hit rate and reduce their avg. highest bet.

[bluetri]

Ellis, would this system be made available to those members who are unable to attend the Vegas seminar?

[Guest]

Ellis, would this system be made available to those members who are unable to attend the Vegas seminar?

Yes, of course, bluetri.

[Guest]

Here is another interesting point about Roulette:

On the internet and films on facebook you will see amateurs talking about partner's Bac. They may mean well but there is NO way a partner can help you in Baccarat. Anything you can do with a partner you can do net betting for half the money making partner's Baccarat incredibly stupid.

BUT Roulette is very ripe for very meaningful partners play. We definitely will be getting into that at the seminar.

[donald]

In Baccarat you have to overcome the vig of about -1.15%. In American roulette with two zeros, the vig is -5.56%. With one zero, which you rarely see in usa, the vig is -2.78%. It will be more difficult to beat Roulette than Baccarat with any system due to high vig in usa. Perhaps playing one or two lines out or the three, that is in sync with the nor system may be the Key to Winning.

[Norm A]

In Baccarat you have to overcome the vig of about -1.15%. In American roulette with two zeros, the vig is -5.56%. With one zero, which you rarely see in usa, the vig is -2.78%. It will be more difficult to beat Roulette than Baccarat with any system due to high vig in usa. Perhaps playing one or two lines out or the three, that is in sync with the nor system may be the Key to Winning.

Hi Donald

You are absolutely correct, playing on a double zero wheel is suicide no mater what system you use.

BTW do you mean playing one or two columns out of three ( not lines) a line is a 6 number bet.

Attached is a table layout showing the various bet and what they are called (note that in the US casinos they do not allow the adjacent column or dozen bets)

Roulette was my first love, up to about 12 years ago I played Rou. for 30 years, before they replaced the wheels with the new type of wheels you see today.

There was a time that I could play Rou. as Well as Ellis could plat BJ., but only on a single zero wheel game with the old type wheel .

BTW: Most of the high class casinos on the strip in Vegas do have single zero wheels in the high limit rooms, but the min. bet is $100 or more.

The only casino I know in Vegas is the MGM Grand, that has a single zero wheel with a min. bet of $25 and $50 on the weekends, they also use the "La Partage" rule witch is

If the ball lands in zero, you only lose half of your wager, but you do not have the choice of leaving the bet as with the "En Prison" rule to get a free ride.

This rule applies only to even money bets like Black and Red section, Odd and Even section, High and Low section.

I hope this info helps some of you rou layout.docx

Norm

PS open the file with MS word.

[donald]

You are right. I meant playing one or two columns out of three columns R/B,O/E,H/L.

[Norm A]

You are right. I meant playing one or two columns out of three columns R/B,O/E,H/L.

Just not to confuse anyone columns are not R/B,O/E,H/L

Columns are the 12 numbers that run the long way on the table there are 3 columns and each pays 2 to 1

it would be like playing the Doz. bets 1st Doz, 2ed Doz,& 3ed Doz, each pays 2 to 1

Norm

PS If anyone is having a problem opening the attachment please let me know.

[Keith Smith]

When we played in AC full time you only lost half the bet on Roulette on zero or double zero. Also we have zone we track and if they can hit a zone

( and by the way they practice hitting zones at the dealers school we have he seminar at) it makes the game predictable and non random if they try.)

If you bet an odd number there is 5 ways to lose out of 7 you and 2 ways to win if they can hit that zone.

35, and 9 you win on odd all others you lose all or partial bet. Same is true on the opposite side. But what if you are

aiming for that half of the wheel only,

you would cause a bias due to the fact that more times you would hit the even zone or the odd zone depending on

what part of the wheel you are aiming for or who you are trying to beat. So we are having a roulette seminar

in Vegas on August 11th and we will show you how to apply NOR and also the raw action system we used

to beat them hands down for a year.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Keith Smith

[Guest]

Gentlemen, all excellent information. Norm, yes, I meant cols. not lines. Like Don, we mistakenly called them lines back in my days of full time rou.

Norm, I need more help than that to open your film but I would very much like to to refresh my memory. Meanwhile what was the payout on the 0 00 1 bet? Is it 12 to 1?

Keith, yes I too played against A.C. rules where you got half your "outside" bet back on a 0 00 hit. But I played cols. And yes, I used dealer "muscle memory" and bet the two cols that were hitting the most often. That worked very well in spite of the mathematical odds.

Don, in Baccarat, assuming you make half your bets on B, I calculate the mathematical odds at -1.25?. I don't know how the book odds of -1.15% were calculated??? I suspect they calculate that Bank wins more often than it loses. But I don't buy that - not over the course of single shoes. Player can win all day long. But that's just me. We bet on Bank half the time and in wins half of the times we bet on it. That makes the odds 1/4 of 5% com or 1.25%. But to me, commission has nothing to do with the actual game odds. The game odds are 50/50. Commission is just the fee we pay them to deal the cards - much like Poker. It shouldn't count in game odds calculations any more than tips we pay the waitress. Hell, why don't we count the cab fare we paid to get to the casino too. Where do we draw the line? I draw it before commission. But the true odds against us are different than the mathematical game odds. The true odds against us is the average casino profits or 15% of our buy in money. Those are the real world odds against us. The 50/50 game odds are meaningless.

Gentlemen, much to the exasperation of true mathematicians everywhere, I have a big problem with using the mathematical odds as a meaningful number, esp in BJ and Bac. The mathematical odds assume random cards and random spins. They are not the real world odds of the game - and I count myself as a mathematician.

Look at BJ. Everyone, except low betting vacation players, play Basic Strategy. Your mathematical odds as calculated by Edward O Thorp were +6% in your favor. 25 years of arguing over that number have finally resulted in odds of -0.5%. Casinos also claim a 1/2% advantage.

This gets a little deep and this is the part that leaves mathematicians gasping for air but I say, why use calculated odds when you have known actual real world odds.

Casinos win at BJ at a published rate of 15% of your buy in money and have been doing so for 15 years.

But, having been raised by the major corporations, I know that that number is an after tax expenses number. The real number, before expenses, is considerably higher.

To me, those are the real odds of the game. Those are the true odds against you that you must overcome. Those are the meaningful odds you arrive at with REAL cards and REAL shuffles. The mathematical odds simply never come into play - so why bother to even bring them up. They are meaningless.

The same in Baccarat! Sure, we can argue whether the calculated odds are -1.25% or 1.15%. But what meaning does that have when players are losing at the after tax rate of 15% of their buyin money?

Experts can calculate that it SHOULD be a clear day today. BUT if freaking water is falling out of the sky.....

What good are calculations once you have real world data???????

Sure, Thorp calculated that his BS would win at a rate of 6%. But his real world BJ teams ACTUALLY won at a rate of 0.5%!

Thorp calculated assuming random cards. Ha, but his teams played against REAL cards. So what good were his calculations? They were freaking useless!

Look, use your head! If the real odds of Baccarat were 1.15 or 1.25% the casinos would not be dealing it. There would be no Baccarat. To me, that is the FACT of the matter. And to arrive at that fact clear headed, I had to put my mathematical suspicions aside and go with the real world numbers.

Mathematical calculations are meaningless once you step into the real world of casinos. To gamble, you can't live in a make believe calculated world. Once you take that step, you are in the real world with real odds. THOSE are the odds you must learn to beat. THOSE are the skills I'm trying to teach you even if it makes mathematicians throw up.

You know, mathematicians, esp card counting gurus, still condemn me today vehemently for using "Empirical data" to play BJ. Do you know what empirical means? It means real casino world data instead of imaginary computer generated data. Ha, that makes ME throw up. Look, they lose, I win. End of argument! Ha, those idiots walk out of casinos with imaginary, calculated money. I walk out with real world money. You can't spend imaginary money. You can only spend real money. So who is right? You decide!

[Guest]

Just a couple years ago I was reporting that the casino Baccarat profits were running 26%. This was the combined avg monthly and quarterly profits of all A.C. and Vegas casinos who must, by law, publish their profit numbers. This 26% number held unwaveringly so long that I got tired of looking it up. But then, as soon as I took my eye off of it, last month, Vegas repoted 14.7%. What changed? Well the obvious thing is all of Vegas went to preshuffled cards.

So, do I think that preshuffled cards cut casino profits almost in half? Hell no. If preshuffled cards cut casino profits even if only slightly and even if only for a single month, the casinos would drop them like a hot potato and go back to 26% regular cards - just like they dropped the first shuffle machines a single month after installing them. No, I'm betting preshuffled cards helped casino profits just like Maccau and Singapore.

Watching the preshuffled games in Vegas, it seemed to me that the players were losing even worse than they were before, as impossible as that may seem.

No, I'm betting that new Accounting Management found a new way to report profits - so that they could pay lower taxes. I find that a whole lot easier to believe.

Yes, I know I got blasted by Dave (Virtuoid) for making hey out of casino profit numbers which he deemed meaningless because they fluctuate.

What the hell have fluctuations got to do with anything? They still have monthly, quarterly and annual city-wide averages. It is those averages that are meaningful.

Dave is a good mathematician but a pure novice when it comes to how casinos make money. You have to KNOW how they are making money before you can beat them.

In BJ, for instance, you have to know that casinos defy the odds of the game with induced clumping which destroys Basic Strategy as well as the dealer break rate to the tune of 15% casino profits in a 0.5% game. You have to either know how to avoid clumping or how to play it or preferably, BOTH. In other words you have to live in the real world - not some imaginary mathematical pretend world. THAT is what separates the winners from the losers.

Dave is a loser, except when he followed me around and bet on my hand. Then he won 6 shoes straight to the tune of a 26% PA. He was incredulous at the time but now he says that is an every day occurrence. Ha, shows you how much he knows about casinos. Dave, stay out of casinos. You have no idea what you are talking about. Casino profits and player losses are the SAME FREAKING NUMBER less expenses! Put that in your pipe and smoke it. It won't be nearly as good as whatever you're smoking now.

[Guest]

0 00 tracking is an excellent idea in rou. It can greatly decrease the odds against you and tell you when to make a cover bet on the 0 00 1 and, just as importantly, when not to.

I was TOTALLY convinced of this after recording full time the 0 00 hits on 8 tables at once for 2 months at Foxwood. When no one was betting the 0 00, it was hitting at a rate of 1/7 vs the 1/18 random norm. But when someone WAS betting it, it hit at a rate of 1/50. This should tell you when to make that cover bet and when not to bother.

AND it brings up another trick of the trade. If you want to stop the dealer from shooting for the 0 00 as all experienced dealers are taught to do, simply bet on it a couple times - End of problem.

Again, there is a whole lot more to it than the mathematical odds of the game would dictate. You can control the mathematical odds and you can cover bet. Those are your tools.

[Norm A]

Gentlemen, all excellent information. Norm, yes, I meant cols. not lines. Like Don, we mistakenly called them lines back in my days of full time rou.

Norm, I need more help than that to open your film but I would very much like to to refresh my memory. Meanwhile what was the payout on the 0 00 1 bet? Is it 12 to 1?

Keith, yes I too played against A.C. rules where you got half your "outside" bet back on a 0 00 hit. But I played cols. And yes, I used dealer "muscle memory" and bet the two cols that were hitting the most often. That worked very well in spite of the mathematical odds

Hi Ellis

First I don't know what you mean by "needing more help than that to open your film" ???? Are you referring to the attachment ?

I did forget that NJ has the half bet rule when a 0 or 00 comes out on the even money bets only (not on all the out side bets) It has been 35 years since I have been to AC. MS or Vegas does not have this rule, I don't know about PA or CT . But keep in mind that you still have to contend with a 0 and a 00 where as with a single "0" wheel you have the same rule with only one zero.

I remember about 35 years ago that Caesars in AC had a single zero wheel tucked away in a back room, the Min. bet then was $100, that was probable like $1,000 today.

There is no 0,00,1 bet, perhaps you mean a 0,00,2 bet witch is called the Basket bet, witch pays 11 to 1 just like the 3 number street bet.

BTW the worst bet you could make on the layout is the 5 number bet (0,00,1,2,3) witch is called the first line bet, it pays 6 to 1.

All the other bet are proportionate to each other except this bet. Do the math you will see what I mean.

Norm

[Guest]

Hi Ellis

First I don't know what you mean by "needing more help than that to open your film" ????

Right, neither do I.

Are you referring to the attachment ?

Yes.

I did forget that NJ has the half bet rule when a 0 or 00 comes out on the even money bets only (not on all the out side bets) It has been 35 years since I have been to AC. MS or Vegas does not have this rule, I don't know about PA or CT . But keep in mind that you still have to contend with a 0 and a 00 where as with a single "0" wheel you have the same rule with only one zero.

I remember about 35 years ago that Caesars in AC had a single zero wheel tucked away in a back room, the Min. bet then was $100, that was probable like $1,000 today.

There is no 0,00,1 bet, perhaps you mean a 0,00,2 bet witch is called the Basket bet, witch pays 11 to 1 just like the 3 number street bet.

Hmmm, I seem to rememner a 0 00 1 bet in AC but then again that was from before my stroke.

BTW the worst bet you could make on the layout is the 5 number bet (0,00,1,2,3) witch is called the first line bet, it pays 6 to 1. All the other bet are proportionate to each other except this bet. Do the math you will see what I mean.

Norm

Right, that much I do remember. But thanks!

I don't think there is a 1 on a single 0 wheel. But what about a 0 00 wheel? I can't remember. I have to refresh.

[Norm A]

Ellis here is a picture of the Roul table.

With the payouts.

I will try to re post in a larger size if i can.

Norm

[donald]

G Bets are dozen bets and H bets are column bets. Thanks for the diagram.