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OT Count question for Newbie


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Excuse me guys. I am new so I will be asking a few questions the next couple of weeks. I have a question about OT counting.

say I have P BB PPPP B P BBB How would I count this?

or does each separate hand count?

P

B 1

B 0

P -1 This is the only one that you got wrong...it's an opposite, so you should add 1 not deduct 1

P -2

P -3

P -4

B -3

P -2

B -1

B -2

B -3

I've corrected your OR count...You were on the money except for one minor error which I'm guessing was a typo

Ellis will probably say different...but if I wasn't already sitting at the table with previous history to go by I'd choose another table. (if there is a decent choice of tables)

OK...It's an OTB4L shoe...but I don't like seeing a ZZ of 4 following immediately after 4iar so early in the shoe. I'd look elsewhere or wait to see what happens... But I'm ultra conservative when it comes down to table choice.

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I've corrected your OR count...You were on the money except for one minor error which I'm guessing was a typo

Ellis will probably say different...but if I wasn't already sitting at the table with previous history to go by I'd choose another table. (if there is a decent choice of tables)

OK...It's an OTB4L shoe...but I don't like seeing a ZZ of 4 following immediately after 4iar so early in the shoe. I'd look elsewhere or wait to see what happens... But I'm ultra conservative when it comes down to table choice.

Well except that sheree was asking about an OT count rather than an OR count if that wasn't a typo.

OR is Opposites vs Repeats and can start at play 2.

OT is OTB4L vs TB4L and must wait until play 3.

They are definitely not the same thing.

Sheree, which did you mean?

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Okay. I had it wrong. I was wanting the OR Count. But to further clear things up for me at what count should I start betting on either side? I also saw something on the forum about a change of 3 either up or down can mean the shoe is changing. Do you have any further advice on the OR count and how to use it?

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Okay. I had it wrong. I was wanting the OR Count. But to further clear things up for me at what count should I start betting on either side? I also saw something on the forum about a change of 3 either up or down can mean the shoe is changing. Do you have any further advice on the OR count and how to use it?

OK, Oz somehow assumed the typo - but then he is a Wizard.

It would be nice if we could go by a count change of 3 but the real world just isn't that plain.

Best to say:

+ = S40

- = F

Hovering 0 = OTB4L

But that formula leaves out SS (Strong Side) which is also F

I think the OR count is a good way to start out. It is a good general indicator.

But eventually you want to graduate up to using events because it is a stronger indicator for BOTH system and Mode.

But that skill will come naturally with added experience. That is just one reason why practicing on your own shoe pile is so important. You develop skills.

I've made millions of actual Bac and BJ bets in casinos. But every real shoe was supported by more than ten practice shoes.

Right now you are still trying to figure out if a shoe is choppy, streaky or neither. So we give you the OR count for that purpose.

BUt sooner than you think, you will be able to walk down an isle of ten tables, glance at the tote boards w/o breaking stride and KNOW which is the best table to play, which system and which mode or if you should change casinos. And you won't need an OR count to perform that stunt.

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How many plays do you wait?

That is not a good way to look at it.

Look, you are nearly always going to start your first shoe of a session somewhere mid shoe and at the most biased table you can find. You have lots of plays to go by. Virtually every shoe is high in something and low in something. That is why you picked that table. You certainly would not pick a table that wasn't.

Your first big dilemma is usually the start of your second shoe because you haven't played that shoe color yet. So you wait a few plays. But once you have played both shoe colors you know what each color is doing. So now you don't need to wait as long - maybe even start at play 2. No, you won't always be right but that is NOT your goal. Your goal is to USUALLY be right. That is all you need to win the day! - Usually.

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Yes, it is stupid to bet on the first play of a shoe and a sign of a novice. BUT, on the other hand I can't tell you how often I'm already at +8 or 10 when my fellow player makes his first bet. He's thinking maybe I should bet an Opposite after he watches a 17 iar ZZ go by. IT'S TOO LATE NOW! He'll probably finally bet just in time for the shoe to change. I've got the chips to see me through a change. He doesn't. Then he'll likely say "This system doesn't work". God help us!

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And do you mean you must wait until a 2 or 3 count or 2 or three hands?

An OR count can only do one of 3 things:

It can favor going up = S40

It can favor going down = F

Or it can favor 0 = OTB4L

That's all she wrote. There are no other possibilities.

Well, except maybe Strong Side which usually entails a - OR count - but not always. SS is something you need to look at in addition to the OR count. Rare but extremely profitable as OZ just found out. But for SS we are usually looking at at least a 2 to 1 count like P3142316 and we are usually looking at sporadic 1's or sporadic 1's and 2s.

In that scenario, F3, starting at play 2 is already at +14 with a highest bet of a single 3 and a commission of 0.

BTW, I probably start at play 2 more often than I don't.

I realize that right now, that seems like a lot to remember. But not for long.

Oz is a relatively new member and already looking at a 58% hit rate and a huge P.A. overall. And he is just one example.

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So where are you playing that has that many tables? I have been looking at the casinos in Vegas and have not found many bacc rooms so far. In Illinois there are actually rooms full of bacc tables but I have not found that so in Vegas. In fact, some of the Vegas casinos treat bacc like it is still a high roller game and have minimum 25 to 50 tables.

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So where are you playing that has that many tables? I have been looking at the casinos in Vegas and have not found many bacc rooms so far. In Illinois there are actually rooms full of bacc tables but I have not found that so in Vegas. In fact, some of the Vegas casinos treat bacc like it is still a high roller game and have minimum 25 to 50 tables.

Gold Coast is best in Vegas. MGM also has lots of tables and a few others. Can you Vegas guys jump in here?

I think Vegas made a huge mistake going to all preshuffled cards. Far fewer players play and per capita casino Bac profits are way down. At least to me, Vegas seems overly determined to shoot itself in the foot.

They don't have enough players so they reduce comps. Now there is a vicious circle.

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Gold Coast is best in Vegas. MGM also has lots of tables and a few others. Can you Vegas guys jump in here?

I think Vegas made a huge mistake going to all preshuffled cards. Far fewer players play and per capita casino Bac profits are way down. At least to me, Vegas seems overly determined to shoot itself in the foot.

They don't have enough players so they reduce comps. Now there is a vicious circle.

Plenty of tables to play at MGM, Gold Coast, Aria, Wynn/Encore, Venetian, Mirage, etc. There are clearly some casinos which do not focus on Bac (i.e. Luxor and Monte Carlo with 1 table each and virtually NO PLAYERS, etc). But there are plenty of tables to pick from. Now, you might not like the minimums in some places, but once you are a NOR + master, trust me - you will be betting WELL beyond the table minimums.

It is a shame LV has gone to preshuffel cards. However, armed with NOR+ along with a keen sense of using EVENTS to be in tune with the shoe as it is played this is no problem for the skilled player.

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Plenty of tables to play at MGM, Gold Coast, Aria, Wynn/Encore, Venetian, Mirage, etc. There are clearly some casinos which do not focus on Bac (i.e. Luxor and Monte Carlo with 1 table each and virtually NO PLAYERS, etc). But there are plenty of tables to pick from. Now, you might not like the minimums in some places, but once you are a NOR + master, trust me - you will be betting WELL beyond the table minimums.

It is a shame LV has gone to preshuffel cards. However, armed with NOR+ along with a keen sense of using EVENTS to be in tune with the shoe as it is played this is no problem for the skilled player.

Exactly right. It took me a couple trys last time but I caught on pretty quick. My highlight that trip was beating Benions high stakes BJ big time. For us old timers Benions - well there is something sacred about it.

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