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Hi Team, new to the group ! :)

I am a newbie, but have read the NOR manual and NOR boot camp manual several times. Plus, I've watched the Video #1 of NOR Boot Camp training. With that said, next step is beginning my practice, practice and more practice, right?

So far, one thing that scares me a little is designer shoes popping up. It's possible that I don't fully understand the concept.

At what cities or Casinos have members seen designer shoes? Is this trend increasing? Do people think we'll eventually see these at every casino across the country?

Does Vegas use these regularly?

Just trying to avoid getting into these nasty shoes if possible and understand the depth of the issues with them.

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Hi Team, new to the group ! :)

I am a newbie, but have read the NOR manual and NOR boot camp manual several times. Plus, I've watched the Video #1 of NOR Boot Camp training. With that said, next step is beginning my practice, practice and more practice, right?

So far, one thing that scares me a little is designer shoes popping up. It's possible that I don't fully understand the concept.

At what cities or Casinos have members seen designer shoes? Is this trend increasing? Do people think we'll eventually see these at every casino across the country?

Does Vegas use these regularly?

Just trying to avoid getting into these nasty shoes if possible and understand the depth of the issues with them.

Hmmm, I just posted about that on 7-5-02 on the thresd Which is the correct way to play this shoe. For your convience I'll copy the pertinent part of that post below at the end of this post.

First, on the forum, we use the terms "designer shoes" "and preshuffled cards" enterchangably.

Second, they are not that big an issue here in the states because they are so easily avoidable.

I no longer think we will see designer shoes spread further because Vegas has done so poorly with them profitwise. They are illegal in some US States.

Designer shoes are usually beatable especially with OTB4L but we might want to lower our goal to 10 units or at least be prepared to.

The difference is this:

Regular cards, especially right after the table opening card prep, tend to maintain their bias throughout the shoe. Our average high bet is about 4.

Preshuffled cards tend to change biases more often. We find ourselves either switching systems more often or stretching OTB4L to its limits. Playing designer shoes in Vegas on purpose, I found that stretching OTB4L was the better approach. Switching, we found ourselves switching too late too often. Our highest bet is closer to 5.

But preshuffled cards tend to favor OTB4L, somtimes so much so that they are to our benefit.

Nevertheless I think it best for novice players to avoid designer shoes altogether by simply avoiding touch games. Also avoid brand new preshuffled cards at casinos that use preshuffled cards. But after 4 or 5 shoes, it doesn't matter much how the cards started out. They eventually find their own bias.

Regular cards we find most stable the first several shoes after the card prep.

Preshuffled cards don't have the initial card prep and are the least stable when brand new.

BTW, neither Tunica nor Atlantic City nor PA casinos use preshuffled cards. Elsewhere, you need to find out. Usually you can simply ask.

Here is that previous post:

"There is a trick, more an art form, to playing preshuffled cards:

Preshuffled cards are designer formatted. The games are presented in two distinct ways:

The new cards every shoe "touch games" (these shoes can easily go 2 hours or more and skilled players seldom like them) and:

New preshuffled cards on a scheduled basis no touch games:

every 4 hours (not good) Casinos have their reasons for this and such casinos should be avoided

every shift or every 8 hours (better)

once a day (best as far as preshuffled cards go)

The best Bac games are regular cards prepped at the table where new cards come out once a day, usually early in the morning or whenever a Bac pit opens. Such games are quite common elsewhere but not in Vegas. Not anymore!

There is also new regular cards every shoe touch games (formal Baccarat) but such games are usually only found in high stakes parlors these days. (14 player tables) These games are usually quite easy if the idea of high stakes Baccarat doesn't freak you out.

It is best for new players to avoid preshuffled cards altogether but after several shoes with the same cards the designer element disappears and the games become quite normal. These will be the best games in Las Vegas.

Again, I think that preshuffled cards should be illegal everywhere. How do we even know that all the cards are there? How do we know the cards are in random order? Are we supposed to take some machine's word for it or some dealer's or some pit boss paid to beat us? Trust a casino? That is pure crazy!

It is interesting to note that Vegas Bac Profits have declined ever since they got on this preshuffled cards band wagon. THAT should be telling them SOMETHING!

I think new members get the idea in their head that it is going to be easier than it actually is. This becomes particularly true if they luck onto an easy first shoe or two. IT is all about finding the right game in the first place. And that is the part new players tend to skip most often. None of us can beat any and every shoe presented. It just seems that way to new players. BUT, when you pick and choose carefully - that is what determines your win rate. Sometimes your BEST option is DON'T play - at least not at that particular casino at that particular time.

But new players have the attitude they came there to play. NO, that is not professional. The Pro came there to WIN! Even if that sometimes means Don't Play. If he can wait, so can you."

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