Excerise shoes from AUS...

[kingkong]

Can any1 show me how u play 4D with this shoe?

B 11212311111212

B 331212411

P 191311211

im very confusing with the 4D method.

pleaseeeeee.

[Natural_9]

Can any1 show me how u play 4D with this shoe?

B 11212311111212

B 331212411

P 191311211

im very confusing with the 4D method.

pleaseeeeee.

That looks to me like a S40M1 shoe. I would have entered at hand 5, gone down to -3 units by hand 9, then stuck it out to hand 28, testing the limit of +7 three times before getting out. I also played it as a TT shoe, netting +5 units by hand 17, and an O shoe netting +5 units by hand 18.

Not all shoes are going to get you 10 - 20 units. Making +5 units per shoe with a high hit rate is a sign of great skill.

Honestly these look like very random cards.

[Guest]

That looks to me like a S40M1 shoe. I would have entered at hand 5, gone down to -3 units by hand 9, then stuck it out to hand 28, testing the limit of +7 three times before getting out. I also played it as a TT shoe, netting +5 units by hand 17, and an O shoe netting +5 units by hand 18.

Not all shoes are going to get you 10 - 20 units. Making +5 units per shoe with a high hit rate is a sign of great skill.

Honestly these look like very random cards.

Well, that's very good from a NOR perspective Natural but Kong was asking from a 4D perspective.

Kong, you only have 18 plays in your second col so you might want to check it.

You don't say whether you were playing regular or preshuffled cards.

The reason I point this out is in the 200 or so shoes I've played with preshuffled cards B and P usually run pretty close. So much so that I've had pretty good luck starting right out at play 1 net betting PvB while waiting to see what actually has the lowest disparity.

We might ask NORM if he has ever noticed this because he has played far more preshuffled cards than I have.

Anyway, wherever you start, PvB has the lowest disparity this shoe. OvR is interesting at first but quickly fades. So your best bet is PvB.

Your progression is 1234 suspend and resume after a 0 win. You are going to win this shoe nicely no matter how you net bet the 1234. Whether you bet it 2Hi or 3Hi is mostly personal preference. You should let the shoe tell you. The important thing is when a 4 entry loses it STOPS betting until that side has a paper win then it resumes betting at 1. Meanwhile the other side CAN'T lose so it keeps right on betting normally except that as soon as a 4 entry loses, the other side should automatically go to 2 because it is on a run.

The PB disparity finally hits 5 at play 20 but I played right through that because the disparity goes right back below 5 the next play. It has hit 0 6 times at that point making an excellent net bet situation.

So had you started at play 1, you hit +15 the second time at play 32, a good place to quit. If you carry on you hit +17 the second time at plays 50 and 52 - definite quit signals.

You might have noticed that B was already ahead before the 9iar. So, it would have made a great high side SS flat bet opportunity soon after the 9iar started. Had you also bet that, on top of your net bets, you would have had a great shot at +20.

But all in all a great 4D shoe!

[Jim Files]

Can any1 show me how u play 4D with this shoe?

B 11212311111212

B 331212411

P 191311211

im very confusing with the 4D method.

pleaseeeeee.

Hi King Kong and Everyone,

I am attaching (I hope) my attempt at playing your shoe. I must say it could have gone a lot better so I may not have made the right choices. Hopefully others will chime in so we can all get something out of this.

I started my counts and after play 6 I went with OT vs T because the counts were 2 vs 2. My score quickly went down unless I wasn't doing something correctly (which would not surprise me). I would probably have gotten out after play 16 at minus 6 but I kept going for this practice shoe and it did manage to make a come back. When I got up to a 4 or 5 bet I always increased the other side so it remained at 2 Hi and then I reduced both sides after the next play. Hopefully this can get some dialog going here even with the seminar coming up soon and not much posting going on.

Best Regards,

Jim

PS Sorry my shoe is at an angle, my image was straight on my scanner so I don't know why it posted at an odd angle but at least it posted!

[Jim Files]

Well, I was busy posting my shoe so I posted it before I saw Ellis's comments so now I may look like a doo doo but that's Ok. Thanks for the comments Ellis! For some reason I was concentrating so much on the other 3 counts that I didn't consider P vs B, Duh!

Jim

[Guest]

Oh , I should have mentioned: On the 9iar when the 4 entry loses and suspends the other side bases at 2 while the losing 4 side is suspended. So on the 9, the losing bets against the 9 were 1234 suspend. the bets ON the 9 were: 211122222. Had you played it 2Hi, the bets on the 9 would have been 211222222 and you would have won one more unit than I did. Either way, you do nicely on long runs. That is the whole purpose of the suspend. In this case I was +12 just before the run started and +17 on the last play of the run. That is not counting SS betting the high side at 1 unit in addition. That would have got me to +20 quickly, where I would definitely have quit. Starting early didn't help all that much. I was only at +1 at play 4. At play 7, I was only at +3. So I made about 3 more units starting early - tricks of the trade.

If there are any questions, just remind me and I'll post this shoe after I get back from the seminar.

[Jim Files]

Ellis,

Could you answer a question I have about about disparity. In the shoe I posted above, at play 20, OT vs T count is 9 vs 9 if I did my counts correctly. Isn't that a disparity of 18? And now that I've looked at P vs B, the count is 11 vs 9 which would be a disparity of 20 or are the two disparities actually 0 for OT vs T because they are equal and disparity for P vs B equal to 2 because they are only 2 apart? If the disparity for 9 vs 9 is 18 then it seems to me the disparities would always get huge by the end of a shoe when for instance in this shoe at play 50 my counts for OT vs T is 22 vs 26 for a disparity of 48? Could you help me to understand when you talk about betting the lowest disparity.

Thanks,

Jim

[Jim Files]

The PB disparity finally hits 5 at play 20 but I played right through that because the disparity goes right back below 5 the next play. It has hit 0 6 times at that point making an excellent net bet situation.

Yep, I really need help on the disparity. I thought the disparity at play 20 would be 2 because there have been 2 more players than bankers.

Jim

[Jim Files]

The PB disparity finally hits 5 at play 20 but I played right through that because the disparity goes right back below 5 the next play. It has hit 0 6 times at that point making an excellent net bet situation.

Yep, I really need help on the disparity. I thought the disparity at play 20 would be 2 because there have been 2 more players than bankers.

Jim

Edited February 6, 2014 by tjfiles
Duplicate post after site said try again later

[Bobby]

Ellis,

Can you please post your score card filled out with your entries for 4D with this shoe? Reading your comments on the 9iar and other plays are confusing to figure out. Would like to see it explained on a score card with play by play please. Thanks.

[Guest]

Well, I was busy posting my shoe so I posted it before I saw Ellis's comments so now I may look like a doo doo but that's Ok. Thanks for the comments Ellis! For some reason I was concentrating so much on the other 3 counts that I didn't consider P vs B, Duh!

Jim

Ha, sometimes simplest is best.

[Guest]

Ellis,

Can you please post your score card filled out with your entries for 4D with this shoe? Reading your comments on the 9iar and other plays are confusing to figure out. Would like to see it explained on a score card with play by play please. Thanks.

Bobby, I'm trying to leave for the seminar but I'll give you all the entries so you can do the shoe yourself:

1st col: starting at play 1

the P entries are: 12123123111212121121

the B entries are :11211211234121212312

second col

Ps are 123411121121123401

Bs are 311123412312311123

3rd col

Ps are 212340000001

Bs are 121112222223

the score is + 17

But B is way ahead before the 9 iar so I would also start flat betting B 1 unit at the 5th circle of the 9iar. So at the last circle of the 9iar my score would be +22. The next play I'm back down to +19. But the next play is 1v3 putting me at +22 where I would definitely quit. But had I continued to the end I think I hit +25 betting 1 unit on B in addition to my net bet.

We can discuss this shoe further when I get back if you have any questions.

[Guest]

Yep, I really need help on the disparity. I thought the disparity at play 20 would be 2 because there have been 2 more players than bankers.

Jim

**

Jim, right, the count IS 2 at play 20. But disparity is the difference between the lowest count and the highest count reached for that particular count. Back at play 7, the PB count was -3. So -3 to +2 is a disparity of 5. See that?

We don't like to see 5. So a 5 alerts us. But the next play it goes back to 4 and eventually 0. Had it gone to 6 we would have gone to high count SS betting at that point.

It isn't always one or the other. Sometimes you have a good low net bet disparity and a strong high SS count at the same time so you can bet them both. That is what happened in this shoe.

[Guest]

OK Jim I looked at your shoe and see why you can't find your disparity.

You have way too many headings. We don't put a count for P and a separate count for B. It is all 1 col 1 count. The col heading is P/B. It is a running count +1 for a P and -1 for a B. So the P/B count starts at play 1 and it will be -1,0,-1,-2,-1,-2,-3. So your disparity at that point is 3 (0 to -3 = 3)

It is the same for the other 3 counts. You can use headings of O/R, O/T. and OO/TT Each of those headings has only one + or - number under it.

But I suggested that you can simplify your card further by putting your PvB count in the B col, eliminating the the P/B col altogether.

Also you can make your O/R, O/T and OO/TT col headings simply 1,2,3 or better yet: 2,3,4.

You can eliminate your +- headings by color coding your entries. But starting out I think it easier to convert the count you are betting to + and - so that your progressions are running straight down instead of zig zagging.

All the scorecard headings you need are: P# P B 2 3 4 + - S That's it.

No wonder some of you guys can't keep up with the dealer.

[Bobby]

Ellis, is there a set number with the disparities that we go SS betting? Is it 4, 5, 6? At what disparity do we net bet? When is it "in jail"? Is "jail" a disparity of -3 to 3 or is it something different? Also what if the disparity fluctuates between being in jail and SS every other hand?

[Guest]

Ellis, is there a set number with the disparities that we go SS betting? Is it 4, 5, 6? At what disparity do we net bet? When is it "in jail"? Is "jail" a disparity of -3 to 3 or is it something different? Also what if the disparity fluctuates between being in jail and SS every other hand?

Good questions Bobby. I'm trying to draw the dividing line between 5 and 6. But I just changed the progression from 123 suspend to 1234 suspend because the 123 suspend really doesn't like a tight disparity. It is more of a high disparity prog. We might be able to get away with a little more than 5 with the new prog. Note in this shoe that a 5 disparity really didn't bother us. This is probably because there were so many plays between its high and low points. So I don't think we can draw a finite number. It's about 5-6 but our SCORE should dictate. If we are doing well we continue but if we start getting a lot of 4 entries, AND it is still the lowest disparity, we need to look at SS betting the highest count.

Maybe I'll be able to word it better than that after we have a little more experience with this new prog. So far this new prog is working out pretty darn good. Maybe it will let us get away with more than I first thought. We'll know for sure some enough.

Yes we can still consider +3 to -3 jail but but disparity is a better indicator. For instance a count that has ranged from 0 to +5 is better than a count that has ranged from -3 to +3.

I think it better to start with net betting because it is usually safer. However, we might already know we are at an extremely choppy or extremely streaky or extremely neutral table. In that case we might want to start right out SS betting.

While the 4D doesn't require table selection, it is also not very bright to ignore a strong bias.