Thanks Ellis, need to refine OR betting game

[bac-cracker]

Ellis,

Thanks for telling me how to play the repeats as sometimes s40m1 doesn't work and there are a lot of evens or 2's. Having a negative OR, spotting it and playing it helped a lot in my game as there was no other way to beat the shoe, well at least without much profit.

Anyhow, there is something I don't know how to get out of.

Lets say a shoe like this. I'm making this up now, but lets say we are playing the OR repeat.

P5324123

- its going fine up here

B511134113

- Ok, so you lose have to lose 2 bets to get all the sporadic single ones (usually there are more, but this is just an example)

- Basically my question is how to bet zz runs. What I do is hybrid NOR and after 3rd loss on repeat switch OTR and switch back if I lose. However, I have to basically do 3 bets on repeat all the time. Can't go OTR after 2 if there are few sporadic ones just because you would lose to these.

Anyhow, any advice, typically when it hits the OTR, I stay on until it breaks similar to an s40m1 move.

Another thing I have done, but don't usually do is for longer runs, It is a hybrid of a F and s40m1. I would stay on Repeat until it breaks and then when I lose my first, I go zz. Of course your a genius if it happens, but we may think of another system for this. Happens definitely more than F shoe.

Again, thanks for adding more tools in my game!!!

[Guest]

Ellis,

Thanks for telling me how to play the repeats as sometimes s40m1 doesn't work and there are a lot of evens or 2's. Having a negative OR, spotting it and playing it helped a lot in my game as there was no other way to beat the shoe, well at least without much profit.

Anyhow, there is something I don't know how to get out of.

Lets say a shoe like this. I'm making this up now, but lets say we are playing the OR repeat.

P5324123

- its going fine up here

B511134113

- Ok, so you lose have to lose 2 bets to get all the sporadic single ones (usually there are more, but this is just an example)

- Basically my question is how to bet zz runs. What I do is hybrid NOR and after 3rd loss on repeat switch OTR and switch back if I lose. However, I have to basically do 3 bets on repeat all the time. Can't go OTR after 2 if there are few sporadic ones just because you would lose to these.

Anyhow, any advice, typically when it hits the OTR, I stay on until it breaks similar to an s40m1 move.

Another thing I have done, but don't usually do is for longer runs, It is a hybrid of a F and s40m1. I would stay on Repeat until it breaks and then when I lose my first, I go zz. Of course your a genius if it happens, but we may think of another system for this. Happens definitely more than F shoe.

Again, thanks for adding more tools in my game!!!

High 1s and 2s is S40

High 2s and 3s is OTB4L

High 3s or more is F

This is an F shoe. Both F2 and F3 beat all 1's. Later on you'll learn to play this shoe S40 M1 which will do even better. But learn Basic Nor first.

[orbes]

Hi Ellis,

Where can I read up on S40 M1?

Thanks!

[BigVic]

Hi Ellis,

Where can I read up on S40 M1?

Thanks!

S40 M1 is just another way of saying bet TBL (Time before Last) or avant-dernier if you prefer. No big mystery.

[bac-cracker]

Hi,

Playing F usually doesn't work for me, not saying it doesn't work, but I always am too late and shoe changes or something goes wrong.

The shoe I was giving you was just an example I just made up as I typed the last post, if I played F, this would take you 5 bets from the get go if you were playing all P at the beginning, lose 3 bets, then go OTR lose, then you are at a 5 bet win, then lose the net 2 etc...

Just hasn't really worked for me out of all the times I played it. s40m1 was the savior for me after you introduced it few months ago... But the OR repeat recently has worked well for me, but I just wanted to ask you how you get away with those 1's once they come out in sets.

Let me give another shoe that is more like what I mean.

P531641

B4511135

P41134 (here if you went otr after 3 losing bets, you would have lost)

So lets just say you are on the repeat train and then you get the 1s, would you do what I did and go otr after 3 losses. The sporadic 1's force you to do this.

Let me know your thoughts.

High 1s and 2s is S40

High 2s and 3s is OTB4L

High 3s or more is F

This is an F shoe. Both F2 and F3 beat all 1's. Later on you'll learn to play this shoe S40 M1 which will do even better. But learn Basic Nor first.

[Guest]

S40 M1 is just another way of saying bet TBL (Time before Last) or avant-dernier if you prefer. No big mystery.

Well no Vic. They are similar but the difference is important.

orbes:

Just as S40M3 goes OTR after 3 losing bets

and S40m2 goes OTR after 2 losing bets

S40M1 goes OTR after 1 losing bet

This changes S40 from a chop system to a streak system particularly useful in streak with runs on both sides. F is still better in Strong Side but S40m1 is best in streak with no strong side (very common).

TB4L Goes on all runs straight and ZZ at the 3rd circle.

The advantage of S40M1 is while it is on St runs from the 3rd circle, it is on ZZ runs right from the first circle.

This advantage can be huge in streaky shoes with ZZ runs which is so often the case.

Both TB4L and S40M1 lose to 2s, while F3 beats 2s.

So you only want to choose S40M1 over F3 in streaky shoes low in 2s as is so often the case with streaky shoes.

Both S40M1 and TB4L lose the bet directly below a 2. Your best defense in this case is to start your prog over at 1 and cut your losses.

TB4L is perhaps the oldest betting system in the world - some 400 years old.

Many players play only TB4L because it likes long runs but, as they constantly prove, it loses big time in today's Bac game because casinos have figured out how to cut way down on long runs. We used to see 15 and 20 play runs on a daily basis. Today maybe once a year if you're lucky.

[Guest]

Hi,

Playing F usually doesn't work for me, not saying it doesn't work, but I always am too late and shoe changes or something goes wrong.

The shoe I was giving you was just an example I just made up as I typed the last post, if I played F, this would take you 5 bets from the get go if you were playing all P at the beginning, lose 3 bets, then go OTR lose, then you are at a 5 bet win, then lose the net 2 etc...

Just hasn't really worked for me out of all the times I played it. s40m1 was the savior for me after you introduced it few months ago... But the OR repeat recently has worked well for me, but I just wanted to ask you how you get away with those 1's once they come out in sets.

Let me give another shoe that is more like what I mean.

P531641

B4511135

P41134 (here if you went otr after 3 losing bets, you would have lost)

So lets just say you are on the repeat train and then you get the 1s, would you do what I did and go otr after 3 losses. The sporadic 1's force you to do this.

Let me know your thoughts.

Kilieu, read post #6. Your shoe has no 2s at all so it is decidedly S40M1 which scores +21 with a highest bet of 2. Just remember to start your prog over when you lose the 1 under each straight run.

Neither F2 nor F3 lose to either sporadic 1's or ZZ runs so I have no idea what you could be doing with F.

You play F2 in a shoe low in 2s and F3 in a shoe low in 3s.

So you would NEVER play F3 in a shoe with no 2s.

F2 scores +24 with a highest bet of 3 in your shoe without a single bobble. Just switch sides whenever you lose your 1,2. How hard could that be? You win your 3 bet EVERY time.

This is an absolutely ideal F2 shoe. You win a very high % of your first bets so you should be betting a 345 per your NOR manual. Had you played F2 to your manual with a 345 prog you win +48. This isn't even a full length shoe. It is cut and dry so figure out what the heck you are doing wrong1

[BigVic]

Well no Vic. They are similar but the difference is important.

orbes:

Just as S40M3 goes OTR after 3 losing bets

and S40m2 goes OTR after 2 losing bets

S40M1 goes OTR after 1 losing bet

This changes S40 from a chop system to a streak system particularly useful in streak with runs on both sides. F is still better in Strong Side but S40m1 is best in streak with no strong side (very common).

TB4L Goes on all runs straight and ZZ at the 3rd circle.

The advantage of S40M1 is while it is on St runs from the 3rd circle, it is on ZZ runs right from the first circle.

This advantage can be huge in streaky shoes with ZZ runs which is so often the case.

Both TB4L and S40M1 lose to 2s, while F3 beats 2s.

So you only want to choose S40M1 over F3 in streaky shoes low in 2s as is so often the case with streaky shoes.

Both S40M1 and TB4L lose the bet directly below a 2. Your best defense in this case is to start your prog over at 1 and cut your losses.

TB4L is perhaps the oldest betting system in the world - some 400 years old.

Many players play only TB4L because it likes long runs but, as they constantly prove, it loses big time in today's Bac game because casinos have figured out how to cut way down on long runs. We used to see 15 and 20 play runs on a daily basis. Today maybe once a year if you're lucky.

Well what I prefer to do is to stay on runs until they end. What you're describing is to bet the run for 1 bet then bet opposites, and if that bet loses then bet repeats for 1 bet and then back to opposites again. That would drive me nuts constantly going on and off runs that way.

[BigVic]

Hi,

Playing F usually doesn't work for me, not saying it doesn't work, but I always am too late and shoe changes or something goes wrong.

The shoe I was giving you was just an example I just made up as I typed the last post, if I played F, this would take you 5 bets from the get go if you were playing all P at the beginning, lose 3 bets, then go OTR lose, then you are at a 5 bet win, then lose the net 2 etc...

Just hasn't really worked for me out of all the times I played it. s40m1 was the savior for me after you introduced it few months ago... But the OR repeat recently has worked well for me, but I just wanted to ask you how you get away with those 1's once they come out in sets.

Let me give another shoe that is more like what I mean.

P531641

B4511135

P41134 (here if you went otr after 3 losing bets, you would have lost)

So lets just say you are on the repeat train and then you get the 1s, would you do what I did and go otr after 3 losses. The sporadic 1's force you to do this.

Let me know your thoughts.

Your shoe scores +24 with a highest bet of 3 playing TB4L.

[Quizzical1]

Well no Vic. They are similar but the difference is important.

orbes:

Just as S40M3 goes OTR after 3 losing bets

and S40m2 goes OTR after 2 losing bets

S40M1 goes OTR after 1 losing bet

This changes S40 from a chop system to a streak system particularly useful in streak with runs on both sides. F is still better in Strong Side but S40m1 is best in streak with no strong side (very common).

TB4L Goes on all runs straight and ZZ at the 3rd circle.

The advantage of S40M1 is while it is on St runs from the 3rd circle, it is on ZZ runs right from the first circle.

This advantage can be huge in streaky shoes with ZZ runs which is so often the case.

Both TB4L and S40M1 lose to 2s, while F3 beats 2s.

So you only want to choose S40M1 over F3 in streaky shoes low in 2s as is so often the case with streaky shoes.

Both S40M1 and TB4L lose the bet directly below a 2. Your best defense in this case is to start your prog over at 1 and cut your losses.

TB4L is perhaps the oldest betting system in the world - some 400 years old.

Many players play only TB4L because it likes long runs but, as they constantly prove, it loses big time in today's Bac game because casinos have figured out how to cut way down on long runs. We used to see 15 and 20 play runs on a daily basis. Today maybe once a year if you're lucky.

The way I do it is just use TB4L and watch for 2-2's. That covers all ZZ, 2-2 and iar streaks. The tricky part becomes "guessing" whether you think the 2 iar will go to 3 or stay at 2.

[BigVic]

Whether we like it or not, despite the system or method we use, it is all just a guess.

The question is, how good are your guesses?

[Quizzical1]

Whether we like it or not, despite the system or method we use, it is all just a guess.

The question is, how good are your guesses?

Agreed 100%.

The only caveat to that is casino shoe shuffle manipulation as Ellis spoke of. If you can detect the shoe is truly progressing as an OTB4L, all the better.

[bac-cracker]

Hi Ellis,

Again, I made up that show, but was trying to show you one part of the show had I been playing Repeats with net bet. Sorry for the confusing, I shouldn't do that anymore.

Anyhow, what I was asking was what are possible options for the single zz when I get to it while betting Repeats (not TBL).

Because when a 2zz happens, you basically have to bet repeat again if there were sporadic 1's. So it just seemed like I always had to 3 bet and then go OTR after.

I guess what you stated can also work with this system. After the first loss, I can flat the 2nd and basically I'm banking on 3+ SS.

Anyhow when you were talking about the f2 shoe, I wouldn't know its f2 on the first 3, so if you went full on in NOR+ from the beginning, it was bad for me which was what I was explaining, f3 would be your streak shoe at first as you are getting away with sporadic 2's unless history states otherwise which of course I would be on f2 after that first 5 bet, but by then I could have been out. So those were my 2 points.

Thanks for your information, I grab a bit of insight from you each time.

Kilieu, read post #6. Your shoe has no 2s at all so it is decidedly S40M1 which scores +21 with a highest bet of 2. Just remember to start your prog over when you lose the 1 under each straight run.

Neither F2 nor F3 lose to either sporadic 1's or ZZ runs so I have no idea what you could be doing with F.

You play F2 in a shoe low in 2s and F3 in a shoe low in 3s.

So you would NEVER play F3 in a shoe with no 2s.

F2 scores +24 with a highest bet of 3 in your shoe without a single bobble. Just switch sides whenever you lose your 1,2. How hard could that be? You win your 3 bet EVERY time.

This is an absolutely ideal F2 shoe. You win a very high % of your first bets so you should be betting a 345 per your NOR manual. Had you played F2 to your manual with a 345 prog you win +48. This isn't even a full length shoe. It is cut and dry so figure out what the heck you are doing wrong1

[bac-cracker]

Thanks guys for bringing back TBL. That would have worked as well. Typically there are few 2s in the shoe, but that will be something to think about as well.