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Hi Folks,

I purchased WCB in 1993. It was at the end of my frustrating, (and losing)card counting days. I never really used the method as I became a poker player and have done pretty well with poker. Amongst my other sins I authored four poker books.

I now find I am interested in BJ again. So I have some questions:

Has WCB changed a lot since 1993 or is that manual still OK?

If not how much for an update? I remember the 1993 was NOT cheap, any breaks for those returning to the fold?

It appears that you are saying that Baccarat maybe a better choice than BJ, as being an easier and less stressful way of earning some money from our casino owning friends. Is that correct?

TY in advance and sorry if you have previously covered this ground in other posts.

Neil D Myers

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Neil I updated your permisions to the WCB forum since you bought in 93. Welcome back. :arms:

Edited by Keith Smith
You can tell the winners and honest players by how many times they admit they lost 
not by how many times they say they won.

Need Information Messenger



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Hi Neil, First, WCB is mostly unchanged. Yes today there is a new edition but the verbiage is mostly unchanged. But that doesn't really matter since you'll be able to download the new edition anyway. And yes, our prices are lower today plus you'll get credit for your previous purchase. I'm a little surprised that you ended up with WCB W/O NBJ because WCB is the sequel of NBJ. I didn't often sell WCB first. Did you buy from me or Jerry or someone else? That doesn't really matter either since we honor sales by others as well. I was just curious. It is more difficult to start with WCB alone because much of the basis for WCB is in NBJ. I didn't cover that ground again in WCB.

The rest of the package you are missing contains NBJ, In Search of the winning Game, complete NBJ and WCB audio and vidio tapes and a copy of all newsletters containing all updates. Today, with your credit, you can get everything you are missing for $250 along with the new edition of WCB.

So should you get the rest of the BJ package, Baccarat, or both? Sure, I would like to get the Bac sale but what is best for you? I would say you are best off starting with finishing your BJ package.

Starting from scratch, Bac is easier. But you've already gone a ways down the BJ road. Many, if not most, NBJ players are x card counters. I find that x card counters are the quickest to learn for several reasons. They have already demonstrated an aptitude for BJ. They already KNOW that card counting doesn't work. They already know that something is wrong with Basic Strategy math and with card counting math. What is supposed to happen simply doesn't happen. When someone already knows the math is wrong it is much easier to teach them WHY the math is wrong AND to teach them correct BJ math.

Also, you'll find it far more enjoyable to stop beating your head against that supposed 0.5% card counting edge, which, as you know by now never materializes no matter how perfectly you play. You can already confirm that B.S. card counting has only a 43% hands won rate on its best day. How can that win esp. when their Hit/stand, double, split, insure, and surrender decision are ALL highly flawed? It's far more enjoyable to play with a 50-52% hands won rate and that is the easiest part to teach and to learn. For instance if you only knew how to insure properly you could already beat the pants off the very best card counters in the world including the illustrious Standford Wrong, I mean Wong.

A whole different reason is that BJ conditions are FAR better today than they have been in 20 years. You are getting a clue to that from the posts of my player Mad Dog. But it is actually Poker that has improved BJ conditions. You will learn that the more players there are in a BJ game, the more the odds favor the casino. That is precisely why in your card counting days the casino did ALL possible to crowd up the BJ tables. Card counters don't know any difference. But casinos can't have their way with the game today because players would just as soon play poker comfortably than suffer over crowded BJ conditions. That helps us tremendously as you will learn in my book In Search of the Winning Game.

But, you will also learn that there are certain times casinos are vulnerable to NBJ and times when they are not. You will learn to pick your best times to play as well as your best times not to play. For this reason, I learned Bac because Bac can be played anytime so I used it to make the best possible use of my time when I was staying in a casino city, often for months on end. For this reason you may also want to learn Bac at some point in the future.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the very best of luck.


Edited by ECD
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Hi Folks,

thank you for your swift and courteous reply. In fact I did buy NBJ but I am ashamed to say I lost my copy. When I purchased them I believe you were in Saratoga Springs, but I think I bought them from Mr. Clifton Davis. I seem to remember that they were about $3,000 if memory serves.

Believe me when I say that counting as taught can break your heart. I have played BJ quite a bit, but please bear in mind, I have spent the last dozen years as a pretty active poker player, cash games mostly and over the last few years tournament play.

I have to confess that Baccarat intrigues me more than BJ, because I never believed that this was a beatable game, although I did believe it had the potential to be. Also, I never found BJ that enjoyable, counting is very stressful!

Thanks again for your gentlemanly conduct.


Neil Myers

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Well that's me alright Neil. Its E. Clifton Davis and the E stands for Ellis. Our price for the NBJ/WCB package back then was $900 compared to $500 today.

However, we did have a Bac system we sold back then for $3000. That might be whats playing tricks on your memory.

Yes card counting is an Excederin headache. Then the headache gets worse as you figure out that all that work is still producing a losing result in spite of all your work and devotion.

I was playing NBJ full time in A.C. at the same time their most notorious player, Kenny Uston, was card counting full time. Kenny was losing daily at the same time and occasionally at the same tables I was winning daily. Kenny quit the game entirely. So don't feel bad that you couldn't get card counting to work. Neither could their best player.

Nevertheless, in spite of watching Kenny lose, I gave card counting a fair shot. I simply couldn't believe that all those books and all those big name card counters could be wrong. But a loss of $40,000 quickly proved to me that they were exactly that. WRONG! Back then, $40,000 was like $400,000 today. Finances quickly forced me right back to NBJ.

While there are numerous problems with card counting the biggest problem I had was I would start raising my bet at +15 per the instructions only to have the count keep going up to +36 as my losing bets went higher and higher. Then, all the tens would come out at once. Sure, I'd get my 20 with my huge bet out only to have the dealer get a 20 right with me, OR WORSE. This happened day after day game after game.

I should have known by noticing that Uston was the only counting guru I ever saw actually play. Every dealer and pit boss in AC knew me on sight by then so I began asking them about each of the card counting Gurus I had learned to admire so. They didn't even know many of them but NO ONE had ever seen any of them actually play. So I figured they all played Vegas. So I went to Vegas and asked around. Same thing. No one ever saw any of them play and nobody knew anybody that ever saw any of them play and no one had ever heard of any of them actually playing. And from some of the ridiculous things they taught, I began to wonder if ANY of them had actually EVER played.

So I went directly to the card counting Gurus and confronted them with my findings. "Oh, well we play in disguise!". In spite of the ridiculousness of this revelation I said fine, let me come and watch. "Oh no, we couldn't do that". So I called them exactly what they are: "a mutual admiration society of scam artists". And I challenged them to come and play with ME.

To their credit, 5 relatively unknowns actually showed up at the high stakes pit at the Taj on the appointed day. I knew they had no idea of what they were doing as soon as all 5 sat down at the same $100 table. I played the table right next to theirs head to head. I won ten thousand in a half hour while they lost their shirts.

Look at it this way: Use your head. If you are selling a BJ system that works you want people to watch you play it. The more the better. I did casino play exhibitions after every monthly seminar to prove my wears. The LAST thing you would do is play in disguise. That's absurd! But if you are selling a system that DOESN'T work, the last thing you'd want is people watching you play.

Hey Neil, if you decide you want to learn to play winning Baccarat, We'll be glad to have you.

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Ha, ha. You've got that confused Neil. Counters GO to the bar to nurse their headaches, they don't get barred. Call casino marketing at any major casino and tell them you are the fastest counter in the world and you want to put $50,000 in their cage. They'll send a plane for you. They've had card counting beat ever since they went to multi deck BJ and introduced the cut off card. And they know full well they've got it beat. But they do everything they possibly can to popularize and prolong the card counting myth. After all, they make a fortune on it. They are not only involved in the scam, they are in charge of it.

To the casinos at least, I was the most notorious player in Atlantic City. I lived at the Madison House which in those days was the biggest dealer hang out in the city. I bought a dealer shirt and mingled with the dealers every night. I learned all the tricks of the other side of the table.

I had a bevy of blue coats with clip boards assigned to me full time and followed me everywhere I went and wrote down every play I made. I was a young wise guy and thoroughly enjoyed them. "Did you guys get that down? I just insured a 6". or "HITTING HARD 17 again" or "So where do you guys want to eat tonite?" They were a ball! My 8X10 glossy is still the first page of their Red Book yet today. Those were the days!

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Hi vega92c,

glad you liked the books. Hopefully I will be making more posts here.


so can you play in Las Vegas or are you persona non grata? I know they cannot ban you in AC but can you not be classified as an "advantage player" in LV? Do NBJ WCB players get hassled by the casinos?

You should write a book about your tales from AC, if you haven't already.


Neil Myers

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Many people have told me I should write a book about my adventures in A.C.. If I did, I would entitle it "The Player". That's what the AC casinos nicnamed me. If every story was a chapter it would have a couple hundred chapters. Virtually every day was a new adventure. Never a dull moment.

I usually play Tunica now and I seldom play BJ because they won't count my time if I play BJ so I can't get comped or get a room. I stay at that motel on the Horseshoe road. However a pit boss friend who I taught to play Bac got me comped at the Goldstrike the last few times on the basis that I bring a lot of other players with me. I play Bac during his shift but I sneak in a few BJ games after he leaves.

I'm persona non gratta in AC and was thrown out of the Claridge for insuring perfectly for 4 hours. Every time I insured she had BJ and every time I didn't she didn't. They said that was impossible W/O cheating and threw me out. I got thrown out of Caesars AC twice and Caesars Vegas once. The first time at Ceasars AC was hilarious. I got there a little too early for new cards and played a shoe of old cards losing nearly every hand. But then the first shoe with new cards I won every hand except for the many pushes. So the dealer called the pit boss in and said that I could see the hole card somehow. Very familiar! So I said Geez he didn't complain when HE won every hand but as soon as I win every hand....The pit boss said, "What's the next card in the shoe?" "I have no idea except its low" "What do you think it is" "The 4 of clubs" Much to my amazement it WAS OH SHIT! the 4 of clubs. "Get your ass out of here right now!" "Does this mean I can't have breakfasst at the...." "GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE ! I never went back.

I found myself at the upstairs $50,000 high limit room at Caesars Vegas one night and was doing well with my $500 units when the little old Chinese guy next to me confessed that he was $70,000 down and asked if he could follow my hand. They are so polite. But with his $5000 units he went from $70,000 down to $70,000 up in one shoe. They never said a word to him but threw me out for using a scorecard from another casino.

Got thrown out of Foxwood for timing the wash with a stop watch.

I was doing a 7 student class on the only big bac table at Turning Stone and broke the bank. They closed the table in the middle of the shoe and didn't reopen it for two years. Keith was one of the students. Sat right next to me. So was Jack McCann. Jack went to the john $7000 down and said play my hand I'll be right back. When he came back he was $7000 up and started walking away. I asked, "Where you going?" "Back to the john!" I don't play there anymore either.

Of course I was thrown out of the Barbary Coast but hasn't everybody?

Yep, I think it would make a pretty good book!

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Hey Neil, I think I need like a Publisher agent. Somebody to keep me motivated and create deadlines and such and find the right Publisher. Know anybody? For the movie I'm thinking Tom Cruise. After all, he's almost as good looking as I was back then. I think the key word here is "WAS". And, he's the right age, if I don't linger. What the hell, might as well THINK BIG! It's always served me well so far.

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Hi Ellis,

having had four books published and acted as an agent, I may be of some service. My wife worked in publishing and I know many of the pros and cons on working through the mainstream. If this is a project you want to do, please send me a private message and we can set up a time to talk.

I am not sure of Tom Cruise's availability but we could always go slumming and ask for say, Hugh Jackman. Waddaya think?



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One day during the filming of Steven Soderbergh's Ocean's Eleven in Las Vegas, George Clooney, a famously unfortunate gambler, joined the rest of the film's cast on a casino run to play blackjack. Things went even worse than expected. "Twenty-five hands in a row," Damon later marveled. "The odds were mind-boggling... There were professional gamblers in the place who were pulling back their chips until Clooney left."

Clooney did leave, but not before borrowing, and promptly losing, $600 of Damon's money. The next morning, Damon found an envelope which Clooney had slipped beneath his door and was impressed to find a check for $600 inside. Upon closer examination, however, Damon discovered that George had also filled in the "memorandum" section on the check and that, if he wanted to bank it, the cashier would think he had earned $600... for lap dancing.

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Hello Mr. Davis, All....

I have been out of the loop until now. I had my eyes replaced in TJ, Mexico in April and I just came back from the Costco, at the border, in TJ,Mx.

The ER Doctor wanted me to buy 10 pills to treat my gall bladder infection. I went to the Costco in Visalia, Ca. and several name brand Rx's ...they all wanted 300.00 for the ten pills...JESSSS....so...I bolted on the overnight bus to the Costco just over the border in TJ.

My cost for the 10 pills at the Rx in Mexico .... + $ 55.00 ! :banghead:

Mr. Davis the WBJ book we did the deal on is very confusing to me. Can I get the same 250.00 deal on the tapes and the BJ system book that you offered on another tread ?

Best Regards,


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