# Confused and frustrated new member

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Hi all,

I'm a new member and I'm sure you've heard this before but I'm just really confused and frustrated. I've gone over the manual more then a few times and its sinking in... but very slowly. The main things of confusion are:

1) at what point of the OR count (-2, -4, +3, +5) from the beginning do I decide which system to use?

2) is S40 at +2 or +3 or +4?, is F at -2 or -3 or -4? Is there a standard number we jump in at?

3) once we commit to a system and we see the OR count changing, when do we switch systems? Is there a standard range to switch at?

4) the other confusion is Modes and how to use them and how to switch between the different modes during a shoe.

Like I said I've read the manual and I know the answers for these questions are in there but I'm not a good learner from just "reading" rules. I'm a visual learner and need to see the rules explained in action on a score card for me to comprehend them. Can you guys please send me some sample score cards with notes showing OR count, what system used and modes used and where used. The more cards the better. I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

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Hi all,

I'm a new member and I'm sure you've heard this before but I'm just really confused and frustrated. I've gone over the manual more then a few times and its sinking in... but very slowly. The main things of confusion are:

1) at what point of the OR count (-2, -4, +3, +5) from the beginning do I decide which system to use?

2) is S40 at +2 or +3 or +4?, is F at -2 or -3 or -4? Is there a standard number we jump in at?

3) once we commit to a system and we see the OR count changing, when do we switch systems? Is there a standard range to switch at?

4) the other confusion is Modes and how to use them and how to switch between the different modes during a shoe.

Like I said I've read the manual and I know the answers for these questions are in there but I'm not a good learner from just "reading" rules. I'm a visual learner and need to see the rules explained in action on a score card for me to comprehend them. Can you guys please send me some sample score cards with notes showing OR count, what system used and modes used and where used. The more cards the better. I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

I'm sure others will chime in.......Here's my two cents:

For Q's 1,2 and 3.

In general, it's best to wait til mid-shoe before jumping in so you can see from the tote board what system - if any - applies best. Lot's of 1's a few 2's use S40, 2's and some 3's use OTB4L, 4 iar and higher use F.

That being said, I rarely have the luxury of finding a game in progress with an empty seat and usually have to start at a table with a new shoe. For me personally, I wait at least the first 4 hands if possible (or bet the min allowed if only player) then start to bet NOR. What I've found is that 90% of the time starting with OTB4L is best since the OR count is still low. Watch the hands as they progress, if you see the OR count floating in the -3 to +3 range, stay OTB4L. If the OR count "breaks out of jail" in either direction by going 2 points away from the range (5), CONSIDER switching to the appropriate system only after your THIRD bet has lost. The third bet is the OTR bet that follows the trend at hand. So if you happen upon a PPP and the OR count is now -5 or less switch to F and conversely, if you get a PBP and OR is +5 or more, switch to S40.

I wrote consider switching because I've also seen many a shoe OR count break out and then come right back in range meaning had I just took the 3rd bet loss and stayed the course, the OTB4L would have had the best yield.

4. For me, the Modes are used in S40 and F. The way I play them is like this:

If you are in F or S40 system and you lose 2 bets, you go OTR for 1 bet (follow the current pattern). You just tried Mode 2 OTR (2 losses following the system your in then 1 OTR bet following the pattern). If that bet loses, then the next time you lose 2 bets, bet one more time in the system you're in (3 in-system bets = Mode 3) and then make bet 4 if needed (or skip if you prefer not to make a 4 unit bet) going OTR (following the current pattern) for one last bet. The third bet is your key - if you lose 2 bets in-system play but win the 3rd bet in OTR, stay in Mode 2. If you lose your third bet in Mode 2, switch to Mode 3 since the third in-system bet would have won.

FWIW - I always make the first OTR bet a paper bet to see how the shoe MAY go. I say MAY because sometimes the shoe tells you what to do and sometimes the shoe plays out flip flopping between M2 and M3 and you seem to lose every time. But that's what your Loss Limit of 8 units are for (if you're already showing a profit, I'd make it a strict rule to never make a bet that would put you in the negative). Some shoes just can't be beat and you're better off deciding with your feet.

Edited by Quizzical1
typo

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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• Legacy Players
I'm sure others will chime in.......Here's my two cents:

For Q's 1,2 and 3.

In general, it's best to wait til mid-shoe before jumping in so you can see from the tote board what system - if any - applies best. Lot's of 1's a few 2's use S40, 2's and some 3's use OTB4L, 4 iar and higher use F.

That being said, I rarely have the luxury of finding a game in progress with an empty seat and usually have to start at a table with a new shoe. For me personally, I wait at least the first 4 hands if possible (or bet the min allowed if only player) then start to bet NOR. What I've found is that 90% of the time starting with OTB4L is best since the OR count is still low. Watch the hands as they progress, if you see the OR count floating in the -3 to +3 range, stay OTB4L. If the OR count "breaks out of jail" in either direction by going 2 points away from the range (5), CONSIDER switching to the appropriate system only after your THIRD bet has lost. The third bet is the OTR bet that follows the trend at hand. So if you happen upon a PPP and the OR count is now -5 or less switch to F and conversely, if you get a PBP and OR is +5 or more, switch to S40.

I wrote consider switching because I've also seen many a shoe OR count break out and then come right back in range meaning had I just took the 3rd bet loss and stayed the course, the OTB4L would have had the best yield.

4. For me, the Modes are used in S40 and F. The way I play them is like this:

a. If you are in F or S40 system and you lose 2 bets, you go OTR for 1 bet (follow the current pattern). You just tried Mode 2 OTR (2 losses following the system your in then 1 OTR bet following the pattern). If that bet loses, then the next time you lose 2 bets, bet one more time in the system you're in (3 in-system bets = Mode 3) and then make bet 4 if needed (or skip if you prefer not to make a 4 unit bet) going OTR (following the current pattern) for one last bet. The third bet is your key - if you lose 2 bets in-system play but win the 3rd bet in OTR, stay in Mode 2. If you lose your third bet in Mode 2, switch to Mode 3 since the third in-system bet would have won.

FWIW - I always make the first OTR bet a paper bet to see how the shoe MAY go. I say MAY because sometimes the shoe tells you what to do and sometimes the shoe plays out flip flopping between M2 and M3 and you seem to lose every time. But that's what your Loss Limit of 8 units are for (if you're already showing a profit, I'd make it a strict rule to never make a bet that would put you in the negative). Some shoes just can't be beat and you're better off deciding with your feet.

Nice Post.

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It is not you Bobby. Every member here went through that same initial total confusion. Some of those same members are now our best players.

Reread the 3rd bet rule in your manual. Wherever you played it, if your 3 bet won you are in the right mode so you stay in that same mode for the next run. If your 3 bet lost you are in the wrong mode. Change modes for the next run. If you didn't make your 3 bet, go by whether it would have won or lost.

We will teach you a better way to select mode later, when you are ready.

The OR count values are pretty much meaningless for NOR. It is the sign (+ or -) that is more important.

Mostly + signs is S40

Mostly - is F

Relax, you are supposed to be having fun. Everything will become clear to you soon enough.

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Thanks Ellis and Glenn for the replies. I really appreciate it. This helps but as I mentioned I learn a lot better from example. Could you guys please send me some sample score cards filled in with NOR that I could look over and study hand by hand. I know the light bulb will come on when I can see shoes actually played out on a card. The more cards the better. Even bad ones to see when not to play. Thanks again

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Hi Bobby, Check the thread by Quizzical1(Newbie here) you will find some there its a couple of posts down.

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Thanks Lou,

I did see those examples from that thread earlier. It's a good start and helps me visualise what to do but I would really like to see more examples. Would you have some you could share with me? Thanks.

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