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Just purchased MDB+ .... kinda confused

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Hello All,

I just purchased MDB+ a few days ago. Prior to this, I've been playing NOR for the past year in live casinos (mainly Vegas) and had some decent success with it.

Now, with MDB, I understand the basic concept of it after reading the manual, but what I don't understand is what type of play should I be playing? In other words, do I still play NOR and when I come across the "triggers" I then place my 1 unit bet at that time? But doesn't that go against NOR strategy?

To further clarify my question, with MDB, are you simply taking "free hands" (or let others in the table do the betting), until these "trigger" events come about and then I place my bet? I hope my question doesn't seem too dumb...


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Hello Dayvid,

MDB+ is not a bet every hand system - you become like a sniper and just bet when you see a trigger and your hit rate is very high.

If you play with NOR it should be played separately with separate bank in my opinion and the bets will probably conflict so it would make sense to bet the MDB bet as the hit rate is higher.

But the thing is it probably doesn't make sense to play with NOR as they were created for opposite reasons:

NOR taking advantage of bias - lots of 1's and some 2's and low other events = S40 etc etc

But what about when you cant see any clear bias?

1's and 2's are equal with 3's and 4's and 4+'s so what NOR strategy you gonna use?

That's what MDB+ is for

So to play both together it may not make sense you know?

More common net bet and MDB+ together.

or the new 2hi system which is net bet anyway

So you are right if you play only mdb+ you will have to sit and not bet every hand

Actually MDB+ in my opinion is a brilliant system which in the right situation will produce amazing hit rates.

Hope this helps

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Thanks so much Brad! So to clarify, NOR should be played with hand shuffled shoes? And MDB is designed for pre-shuffled boxed cards?

Also, are there any thread links that clearly define and explains how to utilize SAP and OR count? I know they must be buried in the thread somewhere, maybe some years back I'm sure, but I can't seem to find something with clear definitions. New members like myself have some learning curve adjusting to all the acronyms and lingo used in these forums.

Thank you!!

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Hi brad01

I have to have a small friendly disagreement about the pre-shuffled cards

My local casino introduced Angel Pre-shuffled cards on 01 February

For the first 2 weeks they were wonderful MDB+ shoes, plus 5 to 7

every shoe.

Then they changed and ever since have been exclusively NOR shoes

On Sunday one shoe had NO threes. The SAP counts are all over the


So I am now identifying the bias and playing under or over the bias.

In the case of the no 3's shoe, I played the 2's to stay 2, and

if the count did go to 3, I bet it would go to a 4.

So this just supports what Ellis says about designed shoes

Pre-shuffled shoes can be whatever the casino wants, and not necessarily

super random enough to be MDB+ shoes.

We must be on our guard and not try to play in a pre-determined way.



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Hi All,

I have to agree with Pando here.

Sydney The Star Casino uses pre-shuffled cards (designed shoe) on the touch games. I was doing pretty well on MDB+, until i got wiped out playing a perfect OTBL shoe, it had 8 3IAR without a 4IAR.

So now, i dont just jump in and play MDB+. Because this shoe maybe anti MDB+

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Just to stress the point, here is a shoe from today from a touch

game using pre-shuffled cards




There are only 2 x 2's in this shoe, and the 4+'s are way

more frequent than the maths tells us.

SAP Count 15/4/12/32/40



Edited by Pando
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ok agree with you we never know what to expect.

maybe I could say hand shuffle should follow expected mathematical sap count and preshuffled could be anything but the sap count will be determined by the order type.

still every day I try to be a better nor player but when mdb is hitting its like a dream

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