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I would like to contribute some actual industry knowledge here so that we can move on from conspiracy discussions of how casino management is manipulating shoe randomness whenever they want. Ellis is quite right in that to really randomize a deck you need to shuffle 7 times, and to randomize 2 decks it is 7*7 or 49 times; obviously, whether via 6-decks or 8-decks delivered packaged, or whether a Shufflemaster machine, or a 29-year old dealers hands, no one is shuffling enough to call it truly random.

Both the card companies and Shufflemaster use what are called software random number generators (RNGs) to determine a set level of randomness. If you do some serious research on the ol’ Interweb, you can even find the patents for both the pre-shuffled card process and for the Shufflemaster shuffling process. Both also are reviewed and certified by independent test labs, such as GLI and BMM (you can research those too); along with some regulators have their own test labs that approve, separate from using an ITL, such as New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Ontario. Some regulators do further testing after the ITL certification, such as Washington or Nevada.

Some further insight on the 6-deck/8-deck pre-shuffled cards… yes, each block has a code, not some secret code that tells anything to anyone – it is exactly like the code you will see on your medication prescription – in case you get a bad batch, they can track it back to the exact shift of people working on a given day in the manufacturing facility in Turkey. The casino cannot ‘order’ blocks of cards with varying degrees of randomness, nor can they order them set to a particular layout – in case they see a BTCF group forming in their lobby – if someone in the casino has told you they can – they are chuckling behind your back.

Same with the Shufflemaster machines – they just shuffle cards folks, set amount of shuffling time based on the RNG. They cannot be modified by the casino management to create more randomness (other than if someone re-shuffled a set of cards again immediately after shuffling them). Those units that can read cards are used at the end of a time period and can sort a deck into its order and advise what cards are missing, which aids research/audit if questions arise.

What I think we can say accurately is that the pre-shuffled groupings of cards are probably a bit more random, to a degree, than the Shufflemaster initial shuffling of a shoe of cards, and whole lot more random than what dealer Stephanie can do with 8 new decks by hand!

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An excellent report.

I'm not so sure about one thing: That a casino can't order cards in a specific card order.

Obvioisly when a casino orders SINGLE decks of cards, they are in a specific card order we call boxed card order -

just like the cards you buy in sealed boxes at any drug store. I'm not so sure they can't order 8 decks in any card order they want.

I think part of the problem is semantics:

A casino that "says" they are using preshuffled cards does not necessarily mean they are using factory preshuffled cards.

When a casino does their card prep away from the table they "call" those cards "preshuffled". WE would call those cards regular

(origionally boxed card order) that were merely prepped away from the table rather than at the table in view of the players.

When a casino preps their cards away from the table, we have no idea of what was done to those cards. Neither does any regulatory commission.

We are put in the position of having to trust a casino - not a viable position to be in.

This is likely why so called "preshuffled" cards in Atlantic City produce vastly different shoes than "preshuffled" cards in Vegas.

Atlantic City tends to be highly biased while Vegas preshuffled cards decidedly favor random.

For instance, over thousands of shoes in AC, I've never seen the SAP counts end up at 18 18 18 18 - usually a far cry from it.

But in Vegas I've seen equal SAP counts many times.

NOR still beats AC soundly but it no longer beats Vegas. Why not if both are using the same factory preshuffled cards???

MDB+ works well in Vegas and Macau but not so much in Singapore or Atlantic City.

I think you are being a little naive. You are believing in the public image casinos portray rather than their true proclivities.

I, on the other hand, have been dealing with outright casino cheating for more than 30 years and I can assure you

it is rampant and I'm not talking neighborhood casinos - I'm talking major casinos. The Bahama hole card trick, short decking,,

slipping the 5, replacing tens with 6's, the Foxwood breakdown trick, dealing seconds. I've spent hundreds of hours with the dealers learning their tricks over pitchers of beer.

I've played cards at major casinos that were so obviosly fixed I could correctly call the next card out of the shoe before it was dealt and, in fact, have been ejected for doing so. At one unnamed casino I counted 6s out loud - very loud - and got to 35 IN A 6 DECK GAME. They couldn't eject me because I had half the casino counting out loud with me. They closed the table. I've lived in the dark dingy world of casinos for many years. I know what they do first hand. I'm not swayed by the public image they try to portray - not in the least.

If you choose to be taken in by their public image party line, that is your prerogative - not me - not for a second.

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Hi Ellis,

I am in 100% agreement with everything you said, especially about casinos - they want our money and will do whatever they can to get it. I have experienced where a dealer tried to cheat me and I was too busy filling out my form but everyone else at the table caught it and yelled out! My post info had nothing to do with the casinos, your knowledge is paramount there. I'm only trying to give some background info on the Shufflemaster product and the "pre-shuffled" cards that casinos order from the card companies. I have no insight as to what casinos do behind their closed doors. I'm not buying any public image about casinos and I don't think I was projecting such in my post. See my personal IM to you for additional.

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An excellent report.

I'm not so sure about one thing: That a casino can't order cards in a specific card order.

Obvioisly when a casino orders SINGLE decks of cards, they are in a specific card order we call boxed card order -

just like the cards you buy in sealed boxes at any drug store. I'm not so sure they can't order 8 decks in any card order they want.

I think part of the problem is semantics:

A casino that "says" they are using preshuffled cards does not necessarily mean they are using factory preshuffled cards.

When a casino does their card prep away from the table they "call" those cards "preshuffled". WE would call those cards regular

(origionally boxed card order) that were merely prepped away from the table rather than at the table in view of the players.

When a casino preps their cards away from the table, we have no idea of what was done to those cards. Neither does any regulatory commission.

We are put in the position of having to trust a casino - not a viable position to be in.

This is likely why so called "preshuffled" cards in Atlantic City produce vastly different shoes than "preshuffled" cards in Vegas.

Atlantic City tends to be highly biased while Vegas preshuffled cards decidedly favor random.

For instance, over thousands of shoes in AC, I've never seen the SAP counts end up at 18 18 18 18 - usually a far cry from it.

But in Vegas I've seen equal SAP counts many times.

NOR still beats AC soundly but it no longer beats Vegas. Why not if both are using the same factory preshuffled cards???

MDB+ works well in Vegas and Macau but not so much in Singapore or Atlantic City.

I think you are being a little naive. You are believing in the public image casinos portray rather than their true proclivities.

I, on the other hand, have been dealing with outright casino cheating for more than 30 years and I can assure you

it is rampant and I'm not talking neighborhood casinos - I'm talking major casinos. The Bahama hole card trick, short decking,,

slipping the 5, replacing tens with 6's, the Foxwood breakdown trick, dealing seconds. I've spent hundreds of hours with the dealers learning their tricks over pitchers of beer.

I've played cards at major casinos that were so obviosly fixed I could correctly call the next card out of the shoe before it was dealt and, in fact, have been ejected for doing so. At one unnamed casino I counted 6s out loud - very loud - and got to 35 IN A 6 DECK GAME. They couldn't eject me because I had half the casino counting out loud with me. They closed the table. I've lived in the dark dingy world of casinos for many years. I know what they do first hand. I'm not swayed by the public image they try to portray - not in the least.

If you choose to be taken in by their public image party line, that is your prerogative - not me - not for a second.

Just google the words " Gempak preshuffled cards"

Not saying they are the only one...but in Vegas I do know that some casinos now " preshuffling in their back room"

You think they might be prone to a little hanky-panky???

Just talking out loud...

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Hi Ellis,

I am in 100% agreement with everything you said, especially about casinos - they want our money and will do whatever they can to get it. I have experienced where a dealer tried to cheat me and I was too busy filling out my form but everyone else at the table caught it and yelled out! My post info had nothing to do with the casinos, your knowledge is paramount there. I'm only trying to give some background info on the Shufflemaster product and the "pre-shuffled" cards that casinos order from the card companies. I have no insight as to what casinos do behind their closed doors. I'm not buying any public image about casinos and I don't think I was projecting such in my post. See my personal IM to you for additional.

Right pauld, I know you are totally in agreement with me. But I can't resist the urge to expound against the public perception of casinos whenever I get the chance.

The problem with all other forums, both BJ and Bac, and all other public approaches such as Basic Strategy and Card Counting and TB4L

as well as the problem with all gurus as well as honest Mathematicians such as Virtuoid, as well as all gambling books and movies and forums

IS

that they all start out with the same incorrect assumption - that the cards are RANDOM and casinos would never cheat for fear of losing their license.

Ha, how many times have we heard that one?

They live in a world of shit in - shit out. You simply can't make anything work when you start right out with a false assumption because

that makes EVERYTHING you say after that just as false.

BTC is the ONLY gambling source there is that begins with the real world basis you are actually up against.

They all teach you how to play the game.

We all know how to play the game but that is NOT the objective

We aren't up against the game.

We are up against the casino - the real world.

Every player in the world should be a member of BTC.

We are the ONLY site that has real winners

And that's because we teach how to play against the real world.

Everybody knows how to beat a computer. But that won't earn you any money.

What you have to know is how to beat a casino. And those are two wholly different things.

Edited by Ellis
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