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But MVS.......if you get it in the form of a gift card, I would be more than happy to receive your gift. LOL...............Jersey

It's my understanding that some states, including my state of NJ, are considering making online betting legal. In NJ, the website would benefit and be run by casinos here in Atlantic City.........Jersey

You dirty bastard. LOL

Bk......thanks for your input on how you are attempting to win over these trendless shoes you've experienced in your homeland. I've enjoyed over that last several months reading some of your newest ideas as well as some of the other you posted here prior to my arrival. I remember reading your System One and your Hit and Run methods. I believe you ran each system for 50 shoes each with losing a shoe. I guess at this point, I'm sad to say, that these well tested methods you worked with are no longer holding up based on what you've been saying. Unfortunately, this appears to be what happens in time with most of the systems posted here and in other baccarat forums. I know there was a guy by the name of Bryan over on the Baccart Forums who claimed to have a system of triggers which he was doing so well with. However, for whatever reason he tells everyone he has these triggers and he'd release them to whoever emailed him requesting them. I'm not sure if anyone ever really got them although some say they did. However, those who supposedly had knowledge of them said they didn't work. Baccarat is a game of opposites and repeats. That's all it comes down to. You hope to catch a string of or continuation of a streak or an opposite streak. No trigger or method has a high percentage of picking what the next hand is. Part of winning is unfortunately losing and you have to have more winners than losers. We hope to either get on one of these streaks or at least hope the very next bet we make will continue that streak or pattern for at least one more time. However, there is no trigger that can give a a higher chance of better than a 50/50 chance or actually slightly less of getting a win on the next hand. If you win, it's only because of luck. So I wouldn't be scared of letting out some trigger that's going to shut down the casinos. It doesn't exist. I wish I could do as you and win or lose 2 units and leave the table. I've got 2 tables going in my casino so I'd run out of places to go real quick. So whatever your trigger, you hold no advantage over anyone else whose playing streaks or whatever other system. You've got to be lucky your on the right side of that 50/50 bet and if you aren't, you're off that table real quick. You could have 5 or 10 streaks of 2 in a row. You'd say this is definitely a solid 100% chance of betting for a single to be a double next hand. It's still a 50/50 chance but you'd think you had the best chance in the world of winning that bet. You need to play what happens in most shoes and that's streaks of one kind or other. Hit them while they appear and get the heck out of there once you hit your profit goal for the shoe. Playing just a few hands in a shoe won't increase your chances of winning or losing. Discipline and good money mangement is a necessity along with some good luck. I wish you the best in your new endeavor and thanks for all your contributions to the forum..........Jersey

BK........when flat betting, what is your stop loss in a given shoe? And do you have a stop win in a shoe?................Jersey

Ellis.........Just curious as to why you selected going otr after 2 losses when I see the 3's are MC for the most part or is the sap count not relevant with otb4l. If we were betting sys40 we'd be looking to bet opposites after 3. With hindsight we know you're safe just betting one otr bet after the 2 losses but in general, when we don't know the results, what are the rules on going otr with otb4l. One other thing with this shoe. In starting it off, it would appear to be an F2 shoe. You have single 1's, we have 3's and a number of multiple. I can't see starting this shoe off in anything but F2. After the fact or after getting maybe 20 hands in the shoe we might then realize we can go otb4l but I can't see where you would start right from the beginning and say this is an otb4l shoe. I remember having illustrations of shoes starting off like this and starting with F2.. In the end we can say the one mode that would fit this entire shoe is otb4l but at the start, not knowing anything, this has to be the start of an F2 shoe. Wouldn't you agree Ellis.............Jersey

Audio.......they are the same shoe. Only difference is in the right hand winning method, I was keying off otb4l and tbl. Check the column. It's the same shoe only looking at it differently but using F2/3 to bet the patterns. You could do the same thing with opposites and repeats if you wanted to add them the mix. The key is decide on when to switch to another column......Jersey

I know right now why we weren't in agreement on some of these hands. Ellis told me that you based you F2/F3 changes based on the 2's and 3's on the weak or other side. So when as you say at hand 16 I should have bet B, since we just had a 3 iar, I didn't change because the 3 iar was on the side I was betting so I keep going with it and don't change modes. The next mode change occurs once on the weak side, after hands 17 and 18 and you get a confirmed 2 on the weak ( side, after that it changes to F3. I think this idea is better since as you pointed back at hands 13-16 you had a streak going and your rules had you jumping off it. Ellis's rules kept you in that run. I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but Ellis's rule on this one seems to be the better decision since you don't want to be in the middle of a good run and for no apparent reason jumping off it and going to the other side to take a loss.

Thanks for your input audio. Did you by chance play this shoe based on player/banker colums and did it turn into a loser as it did for me when playing by your rules........Jersey

Possibly Audionut and Ellis can play this shoe and see what they come up with. I know I must have made some mistakes and since you two have had good experience with this method and first shoe I do winds up a loser if you only consider the first two sets of columns which is the method as described but Ellis in his last post. I hope I got that wrong because Ellis told me he played BP yesterday for a few shoes and quite possibly this shoe. He had all winner with little drawdown. I hope I've stimulated some good thought and suggestions. Obviously there are better ways of playing this method other than just looking at P and B results. Ok pipe in Ellis and Audio........Jersey

Well I don't mean to complicate things, but possibly complicating things a bit, can improve upon our results. It's not something so complicated that you couldn't do this record keeping between hands and be able to get the next bet off. But what I'm about to show you, is going to stimulate some additional thought when looking at the F2/F3 methodology. If you're following the thresd, then you know we're betting F2 or F3, mostly on the strong side of your columns and you'll find that most of your bets will wind up on either B or P depending on what's stronger in the shoe. So I applied the rules Ellis last mentioned. Whenever I had to change sides, my first bet was for 1 unit. I know I screwed up some things as I sent along since this is the first time I've attempted this method. But if I screwed up a bit, the difference you'll see is significant regardless of whatever small errors I may have made. One thing I didn't do that I know I should have done is when making that 1 unit bet on switching sides and if it loses, the next time I bet a 2 unit bet on the switch and if that loses on next switch go to 3 units on a swich. I used a 1,2,3 up as you lose with no M2. If you look at the first two columns you know obviously what this is. Then I put an S at the top of the column indicating the balance of betting this method unit wise. However the next two column, which are labeled OT and TB in a green. The 0's under those coluns indicate if the winning hand was a OTB4L (OT) and TB4L(TB) The S after that is the cumulative result of having bet F2 and F3 as per the rules of the method. Take a look at the difference in the results. These 2 column, killed just betting P and B on an F2/F3 baisis on the same shoe. Now, in this shoe, it just so happens the second set of columns outdid the first two sets of columns. My point here is that if you want to get the maximum out of a shoe, bet F2/F3 on the columns that are winning the most. If you wanted, you could put up another set of columns which track repeats vs opposites, and once again go with what's hot and don't bet what's not. Maybe just the two sets of columns will suffice or maybe you add the opposites vs repeats. But keep using the F2/F3 method on all. Here's what the two sets of columns look like. The OT/TB columns blow away just betting P and B. And if I did it right, you had a losing shoe on the first set of columns. It had a high of +5 and wound up with a -2 but the low was -10. This shoe is from Bet Phoenix yesterday (Saturday). The second columns showed a high of +17 and wound up +7. I'm sure some other kind of progression could have done better, but comparing apples to apples, which columns would you have rather been betting on........Jersey PS Now the thing to come up with is what triggers you into another set of columns. Obviously you can compare them to each other but when do you decide to make the switch.

It's really strange but the same thing crossed my mind about a week ago, but I never sat down to put it on paper to see if it could actually work. Seemed to simple so I never really got into it nor did I think it out as far as you have as to how you should play these two combos. Thanks for the effort...........Jersey

Ellis.........I would think you are better off using the patterns rather than O/R count when you should shift over to otb4l. My reasoning is that if you see a couple of 2's running together it gives you and immediate sign for possibly changing. The O/R count might take a while before it kicks in due to a lag showing up in the count. With the p ttern showing you have immediate reason to change. Now this might be right or wrong but that's why they call this gambling...............Jersey PS...are we limiting the O/R count to a + or - 3 or do we just let it run. If we're letting it run, it makes change a little more difficult if we're at a +9 or - 9 count. PSS One thing I've done when playing is record the otb4l circles in red. So then I can see how often these bets are winning.

Oh that's what I thought you meant

A two bet progression opens the door to winning the 1st bet and losing the second bet.

The progression looks fabulous on this shoe. Gotta see how it does on a difficult shoe where you have chops and streaks and chops and streaks. In other words a typical shoe. LOLl Actually this shoe had a little of all these things but it just looks like it flowed easily from one mode to the other without a lot of interruptions in between. It's like as the modes changed, it stayed in that mode long enough to get a real nice return. It seems you didn't have a second thought about why you changed to another mode. But I hope I'm wrong. The other thing that helped in this shoe, and it's something I always like to see, but doesn't happen often enough and that's where you're betting opposites or otb4l and you have 2's as LC. This enables you to go on the run early and avoid all those losing bets waiting to get to 4's. When 4's are LC, it becomes much more difficult playing opposites and otb4l. Usually you get opposites until you reach 4 in a row and then you decide to go otr, and guess what, that's just when it decides to switch to the other side. So you lose 4 bets in a row............Jersey

Nice job PJ. I'm just wondering about using the O/R count for deciding to go otb4l due to neutral count. The thing that really made ot work at the point you went to that mode was the fact that 2's were starting to show up and you just had two sets of 2's in a row. If you look back at hand 16-20 the O/R count was stuck in a range just as it was at hands 49-53. You could have made a case for going ot at hand 20 or so but without the 2's it wouldn't have been the best choice. I think something other than o/r counts should be used for deciding to change modes. Probably a clump of 's might be the better reasoning. But I could be missing something here............Jersey

That's exactly why I wouldn't put my hard earned money on this thing. I figured the huge losses would eat up all the wins and then some.

It's worked every time I've used it. Here's what is going on. First the random results you see recorded are from another shoe he played at some other time. From there you are comparing the results from that other shoe to the shoe you are playing now. So your play today is the same as it was from the prior shoe. Once you have two consecutive losses which are disagreements with the prior shoe you start your bets in the unit size he's suggesting. You make 5 consecutive bets of 1,2,4,8,16 which totals 31 units. So far I've done a number of shoes and this wins every time. You are winning 8 to 10 units per shoe. Many times you hit on the first bet after the 2 losses. Of course the downside will be when you lose the 5 in a row. Maybe there is some other progression you can use to tamp this down. One person suggested to wait for 3 losses in a row before betting but the guy said this really cut down on the wins but your downside is a manageable 15 units leaving off the 16 unit bet. Amazing so far how effective it has been...........Jersey

I came across this baccarat system. At first I thought it was too good to be true and maybe it is, but I tried it on several shoes and as advertised, it won between 8-10 units per shoe. I'm posting this to see if anyone else ever heard of this method. This discussion is over a year old. Maybe it's good or maybe can be modified. See what you think. The link is http://vlsroulette.com/baccarat/random-baccarat-system/ Jersey PS They seem to think it works well on baccarat as well as roulette.

Maybe you could post a shoe you did from Hollywood with some notes as to why you changed modes...........Jersey

If you're only betting repeats, how do you stay out of trouble in a choppy shoe. At least if you're using F2 you can get around some of the chop but if you're not using that, how do can win in a choppy shoe?......Jersey

MVS...........what i've been doing is if I'm in the system 40 mode, I look to see what the 3's are doing. I like playing it the old way also which means you go otr after 3. If 3's are high or MC, then I won't play it that way since 3's are the killer when just as you're going otr it comes back to the other side...........Jersey

I've had this happen occasionally too but not that often...........Jersey

Ellis.................I pray for you and your son. This is just so unimaginable..........Jersey