zebra

Let me give a simple example. Suppose you come upon a shoe and you notice many 1's. This is a great S40 shoe. You start to play and after a while your SAP count is 7-2-8-4. Now you have PBB. You won the first B, lost the second. S40 is telling you to bet opposite for 2 units. In other words, bet opposite and the 2 will stay a 2. But the SAP count is telling you that 2's DO NOT remain 2's because 2's are LC. Also, 3's (or 3+'s) are MC. So SAP is saying bet B (repeat) instead of opposite. Notice that I never used the word "mode". Now as I said, this is a very simple example. It is often not so easy to see what your play should be. Experience and practice will help you make these interpretations. I have been playing this way successfully pretty much since NOR made its appearance. Hope this helps Paul

Sorry Witchy - I think you misunderstood me. SAP does not help determine the mode - it makes the modes unnecessary. Modes are used to determine when to go OTR and how long to stay OTR. For me the SAP count and LC and MC determine those bets, so there is no need to worry about modes. As Ellis has said, it sounds a lot more difficult than it is when playing Paul

The way I play the SAP count usually overrides the NOR decision. You must have a strong indication from the SAP count. If it is close I might ignore it and stay with the system. This is something you get the feel for after a while. SAP actually replaces modes for me. You don't need to know what mode to play if the SAP count is giving you LC and MC. I never worry about modes. Hope this helps Paul

Good suggestion Joey. Here is a quick summary of how I incorporate the SAP count into NOR play. First, let me say that this works best when a shoe is well underway. You can't tell too much from the SAP count early. I always like to enter a shoe after it has established its patterns, just as Ellis preaches. I will write all the plays onto my card and do a quick SAP count. I start my play with the system that best suits the shoe. I am looking for disparity as shown by the LC and MC. The greater the disparity, the surer my bet. So if my SAP count is 3,6,0,8 I am going to jump all over a 2 no matter which of the systems I am playing. If I see BB I am betting P even if the system calls for a B bet. What we are doing is betting that a 2 will not go to 3. If it does go to 3, I will now be betting that it will go to 4 to again try to take advantage of the 3 being LC. In certain situations my bet will be above the normal bet, just like PJ does on his second liners. Anthony likes to call them "boom bets". Just another way of exploiting a good shoe so you can get out faster. Keeping a SAP count may seem difficult, but it will become easy very quickly and I consider it well worth the effort. Paul

Hah! I have yet to find a cruise ship with a bac table.

(Originally posted in a separate thread - it belongs in this thread) The NOR seminar in Vegas this weekend was a huge success. There were more than 50 students in attendance with bac experience ranging from seasoned vets to rookies who never played the game. All aspects of the NOR manual were covered by Ellis who did his usual excellent job. Following the Sat. session we went to Luxor to play a shoe with many of the students gathered around. We could not have been faced with a more challenging shoe. After an opening 2, there was a straight run of 7, immediately followed by a zig-zag run of 7, and then immediatly followed by a run of 4 twos (8 plays). After being down 4 early, we rallied to pull out a +5. Ellis said such a combination of events was "impossible". It truly showed the power of NOR. It was great meeting all the new guys (and gal). I hope you all become contributing members here at BTC. Paul

The NOR seminar in Vegas this weekend was a huge success. There were more than 50 students in attendance with bac experience ranging from seasoned vets to rookies who never played the game. All aspects of the NOR manual were covered by Ellis who did his usual excellent job. Following the Sat. session we went to Luxor to play a shoe with many of the students gathered around. We could not have been faced with a more challenging shoe. After an opening 2, there was a straight run of 7, immediately followed by a zig-zag run of 7, and then immediatly followed by a run of 4 twos (8 plays). After being down 4 early, we rallied to pull out a +5. Ellis said such a combination of events was "impossible". It truly showed the power of NOR. It was great meeting all the new guys (and gal). I hope you all become contributing members here at BTC. Paul

I will be at arriving at GC early afternoon. Anyone getting there at that time give me a holler. If you expect to be there PM me. Paul

Just received the manual and gave it a quick read. Congrats on a great job. I agree with Ellis - concise and all inclusive. Easy to read and understand. Even the guys on BF could understand it! See you in Vegas Paul

I missed too many bets. I just have too many other things going on and when I checked the site I missed a bet or 2. The way it finished, I probably would have increased my winnings with the predominance of 1's and 2's, but it was a difficult shoe. I suggest that if we do this again (which would be nice) we do it in an hour or so like they did for the tournament at BF. Just a few minutes between hands so we can all post our wagers. We could use a recent shoe from anywhere and have everyone start at the same point, like hand 2. We just need someone to sit out and post the plays. Everyone can post their own scores as we go along with explanations for their wagers. How does that sound to you guys? Paul

2 on B - 3's go to 4's

I seem to be having a problem keeping track. I lost the hand that broke the B run of 3, then won when it went back to B. I thought B went to 4. In any case, I go back to opps and S40. So I am at +3 and continue to bet S40, so my next bet is 1 unit on P.

Right Bill - it is a tough shoe. I'm going back to P. 4's don't go to 5, back to S40 Paul

I also stay on B for 3 units - 3's go to 4's I am at +2

The SAP count tells me it is an S40 shoe. The runs will occur and we have to ride them out or perhaps take advantage of them. As of now I will continue to bet that 2's stay 2's and 3's go to 4's. If it goes to 4 I will stay OTR.

You're on the money, Money. I counted the first 2 by mistake. I'm sticking with my bet, however. I actually would have gotten into this shoe when the bank run ended. I was waiting for that, but Kat never gave me the chance. So my bets would have been B (lose 1) B (win 2) P (win 1) B (lose 1) B (win 2) P (win 1) B (win 1) P (Lose 1) P (2 units, waiting for result). I would be +4 at this point. Any shoe full of 1's and 2's should be a big winner for S40. Then SAP can guide us when it goes beyond 2. Thanks for keeping me honest! Paul

OK - time to enter the shoe. It is not a great shoe but maybe we can make a few units with NOR + SAP. Current SAP count is 12-10-4-12. So 3's are LC, 1's and 2's are high. This tells me to play S40 with 3's LC. Since we have BB, I will bet P because 2's usually do not go to 3. Should B win, I will stay OTR because 3's usually go to 4. If P wins I go to B because of S40 (bet opp). So my bet is 1 unit on P.

Congatulations Witchy Wow - what amazing shoes! I'm booking a flight to Singapore. First shoe was 29-26-8-4 and the second was 18-20-0 12. Are they always like that? Paul

OK - number of units bet = 311 units won before comm = 53 so PA = 5.87 does that make the record books?

Hi Guys. I just returned from Florida. In between working on my tan I made a few trips to Coconut Creek Casino. I played parts of 9 shoes over a couple of days. My results were as follows: 8 wins, 1 loss. In the 8 winners I averaged less than 21 bets per shoe, winning an average of 12.5, losing 8.1. So even if I was flat betting I would have been +35 units. I wound up +61, an average of about 7.6. I used NOR + SAP (NORSAP?) and handled both streaky and choppy shoes. The only losing shoe (-8) wound up with a SAP count of 20-20-20-12, so obviously there was no deviation to take advantage of. I was playing quarters and 123 prog, only going to 234 a couple of times, usually in turbo scenarios. All in all, a very successful trip. I was +$1100 after commission and spent no more than 4 hours total in the casino. Once again, thank you Ellis for making me a player. Paul

You are right - a lot of questions. I'll try to get to all of them. In the shoe you detail the SAP count at the time the run of 13 occurred was 12-8-15-4 I would have been in S40, so I would have won the 2 bets prior to the run and the first in the run. I would have lost the next bet. Looking at my SAP chart I see 2's usually go to 3, so I bet P and win the next bet (2 units). Next, seeing that 3's usually do not go to 4, I would bet B and lose the next bet (1 unit). At this point I might do one of 2 things: sit out a hand or jump on the run. If I sit out, I jump on the run next hand. Either way I am going to hit 8-9 wins. After the run I probably quit. I would not go to F based on one run. If I stayed in S40 I would be about even the rest of the shoe You are correct in all 3 examples of OTB4L. As far as the modes are concerned, with my use of SAP modes are unnecessary. I just go by the chart I like to join the shoe when I get a clear indication of what to play. That could come at any time. I don't have any rule as far as entering the shoe. You will get a feel for it as you gain experience Hope this helps. Paul

We usually go with the lower one (2 in this case) but my play would depend on what the other numbers are.

I'll try to answer your questions you don't have to copy the hands onto your scorecard - most players don't. On the other hand, I do! It takes very little time. I also do a SAP count and bring it up to date. I find it helps me to know how the shoe is playing. Great players like Ellis can just look at the board and know what is going on, but I find it is better to write it down. Like I said, it takes only about a minute. I do not use the O/R count - I use SAP instead. But the same is true for the O/R as for writing down all the plays - it is a personal choice. The O/R count can vary in different parts of the shoe, so you might just want to look at the last 20 plays. You are correct about the SAP count. Remember 1's count for 1, 2's for 2 and 3's and 4+'s count for 4. The count for 4+'s could never be 10 as in your example. In your example 2's would be the LC (8) and 3's would be the MC (16). If I was going to enter this shoe I would play S40 to take advantage of the high 1's, but when it went to 2 I would bet the same side, expecting the 2 to go to 3. This is my method of incorporating SAP into NOR. I expect to be demonstrating that method at the Vegas seminar. Hope to see you there Paul

If I HAD to bet I would go P, but I would still rather watch the shoe develop. I'll come back to this thread when it nears the end of the first column Paul

No bet - way too early I prefer to enter mid-shoe so I have a good idea where the shoe is going.