Team BJ Trip Reports

[CHAZ2024]

Hi Chaz,

You have to have the above play in the context of the entire game. Are there lone tens in the game? Was the last two rounds high? or low? how long are the clumps? Did the first base player stand with a pair of tens?

Lots of questions here for sure.

What changes have you made and what did you base those changes on?

Thanks in advance!

John

Hi John,

To answer your questions fairly I'll do my best. Of course in any game there always will be a lone wolf "ten" to screw things up. But in most cases the high card tens will be clumped just as Ellis says. I've changed my way of playing blackjack to the new style that Ellis suggests. I've been playing for over 30 years and have had my ups and downs. I along with Ellis have met the infamous Ken Uston. We

use to meet at the Jockey Club in Vegas and this was the first time I ever heard of team play. Than I met the ringleader of the MIT team Samyon Dukach in the early 90's. There method of team play was almost verbatim in the movie 21. I have mastered probably 3-4 very

difficult counting systems some balanced and some unbalanced. But I think Ellis has the right idea regarding clumping. I have done my

own research on clumping and some clumps will go to 10-15 cards in a row. It's amazing that so many cards will clump together. But as Ellis states once the cards have been played for maybe 4+ hours that's the time to enter the game.

If first base has two tens I always stay especially if the 3rd base last card is low. The problem with players 2,3,4 & 5 is that when player

two pulls a ten and the other 3 players have low totals they do not hit. This creates a problem. My answer is when player 2 hits and draws

a ten than the lowest total of the next 2-3 players hits one card only and than everyone stops. But this does not happen too often. Also

when 3rd base 2nd card is a ten and the dealer pulls a ten and busts my next bet is always 4 units in the progression. My observation is

that 64% of the time 1st base will get a ten. Any more questions feel free to send a message.

chaz2024

[johnnycs1]

How do you know if the cards at any particular table have 4+ hours of play ?

Also , have any teams developed following the Team BJ Seminar in Vegas , and actually playing and what results are you having ?

Thanks,

johnny/albuquerque

ps....anybody from the Albuquerque area ?

[Guest]

Hi John,

To answer your questions fairly I'll do my best. Of course in any game there always will be a lone wolf "ten" to screw things up. But in most cases the high card tens will be clumped just as Ellis says. I've changed my way of playing blackjack to the new style that Ellis suggests. I've been playing for over 30 years and have had my ups and downs. I along with Ellis have met the infamous Ken Uston. We

use to meet at the Jockey Club in Vegas and this was the first time I ever heard of team play. Than I met the ringleader of the MIT team Samyon Dukach in the early 90's. There method of team play was almost verbatim in the movie 21. I have mastered probably 3-4 very

difficult counting systems some balanced and some unbalanced. But I think Ellis has the right idea regarding clumping. I have done my

own research on clumping and some clumps will go to 10-15 cards in a row. It's amazing that so many cards will clump together. But as Ellis states once the cards have been played for maybe 4+ hours that's the time to enter the game.

If first base has two tens I always stay especially if the 3rd base last card is low. The problem with players 2,3,4 & 5 is that when player

two pulls a ten and the other 3 players have low totals they do not hit. This creates a problem. My answer is when player 2 hits and draws

a ten than the lowest total of the next 2-3 players hits one card only and than everyone stops. But this does not happen too often. Also

when 3rd base 2nd card is a ten and the dealer pulls a ten and busts my next bet is always 4 units in the progression. My observation is

that 64% of the time 1st base will get a ten. Any more questions feel free to send a message.

chaz2024

Good observations chaz! Right, particularly when the last 2 cards in the prior round are tens, the BP should definitely be making his high bet.

Right, new cards are not a good time for team play. 4 hours of card maturity is about right. 7 players will clump the cards up even faster. One team trick when they are looking for an empty table is to keep a watchful eye on all 6 and 7 player games. These are the tables most likely to empty out suddenly presenting a perfect Team Play opportunity.

What happens is the players, yet again, watch their 20s get beat by a dealer 6 or 7 card 21 and can't get out of there fast enough, often turning over chairs and not bothering to color up any remaining chips. Very common on Fri and Sat nights. Now we have an empty table ripe for team play.

Why did they lose so miserably? Because Basic Strategy leaves too many low cards in the game in clumped cards virtually handing the game to the dealer on a silver platter.

Yes, the Uston and MIT teams did OK at first if you consider 1% PA OK. Uston complained to Thorp that his 6% projections simply weren't happening - read his book. Uston was right. Thorp failed and is still failing to consider the effect of clumping. Clumping freaks out Basic Strategy. Then, new casino rules eliminated even their 1% and the teams were finished. Today the teams are reduced to writing books and trying to sell their system that no longer works at all.

But their so called team play was totally different from ours. They had counters running around the casino looking for high + count tables. Then they called their BP in W/O regard to where he sat or the number of players at the table - two fatal mistakes. A third fatal mistake is the count can be too high wherein the BP simply pushes 20s with the dealer.

But think about this realistically W/O all the hoopla. ONE freaking percent! So OK, lets say you have ten people on your team. First you have to cover all the expenses of ten team members. Then you split the remainder of the 1%. Just how far can you expect 1% to go.

Uston claimed in court, and in his book and to his death that their team profits were nowhere near what the casinos claimed. I know this to be true. I've had casinos exaggerate my own winnings. Pit bosses and casino Managers are always looking for something to blame it on.

Consider the Bac farce a few years back when the casinos came up with the absolutely ridiculous story that a team was photographing the shuffle machine under the table and relaying the film to a high tech van out in the parking lot who was deciphering the info with "high speed computers" and radioing the next play back to their player at the table, who so equipped, would win every bet.

The first casino collected from their insurance co. with this ridiculous story and then ten more casinos filed suit saying they were taken by the same, never caught, totally mysterious team.

COME ON, give me a break!

You can sit under the table and gaze at any shuffle machine, regardless of age, and I guarantee you, you will never see a single card value, let alone, photograph them, relay to your Bat Man van, decipher the next 5 cards to be dealt and radio to your player in time to bet the next hand. Yet no cameras or radios were detected. You've got to be shitting me.

Then there was the recent AC Bac scandal. I thought, at first glance, this was slightly more sophisticated. I thought someone was recording the order of the cards going into the discard shoe and then the dealer didn't shuffle. That would have been dumb enough. But no, it turns out the dealer was putting new boxed card order cards in the shuffle machine and then failing to turn the shuffle machine on. So the cards were coming out of the dealer shoe in boxed card order. But nobody noticed except the players who the casino is now trying to sue. Boxed card freaking order! The dealer didn't notice? The Pit Boss didn't notice? The cameraman upstairs didn't notice. Nobody noticed that EVERY player was winning EVERY hand for several shoes. And this is the player's fault? What were they supposed to do - tell the Pit Boss? Again, give me a break!

Our Team Play method is what used to be called "Table Takeover" in the old days. No resemblance whatsoever to the Uston and MIT teams. But Table Takeover didn't work because everyone played BS leaving the lows for the dealer. Our Team Play works BECAUSE we take the dealer favorable lows out of the game. No one ever thought of THAT before - dumb bastards!

Edited September 19, 2012 by Guest

[Guest]

Speaking of the number of lows in a row or the number of highs in a row, I recall a game in the Taj High stakes room. I was at First and Harvey Garrison was at Third. We had two or three other NBJ players in that eight deck game. We went half way through the shoe before we saw our first ten! We left and killed the next table. But one of our players stayed, played head to head, and killed the dealer. I asked him later why he stayed??? He said because I knew the rest of the game had to be nearly all tens. Hmmm, why didn't I think of that???

But here is another point about that game. It was early in the day. We were the only players in the high stakes room. Those cards had likely had very little play if any at all. So how did the cards get THAT clumped???

Now picture in your mind a large but empty high stakes room. There is the dealer standing there and there are the cards sitting there. The dealer has nothing to do....... And some think casinos would never cheat. Again, dumb bastards!

Suzanne relayed her story on a cruise ship. She was leaving the casino and stopped to watch a peculiar thing a dealer was doing at an empty high stakes table. Yep, he was separating highs from lows. So she walked over and said: "You should be ashamed of yourself!" The dealer just laughed and proceded with his artificial clumping.

My point is that casinos fully recognized the value of clumping to them long before I did. Yet we have the rest of the BJ world saying clumping does not exist. Don't any of these idiots ever actually go to a casino to see for themselves what is actually happening??? Like John says: Go to any AC casino on a Saturday night and watch ANY BJ table. Clumping is totally obvious even from the isle. You would have to have a completely closed mind not to see it. Usually all you need to see is ONE round. It is THAT obvious. Denying clumping is like denying air.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Guest

[Guest]

How do you know if the cards at any particular table have 4+ hours of play ?

Also , have any teams developed following the Team BJ Seminar in Vegas , and actually playing and what results are you having ?

Thanks,

johnny/albuquerque

ps....anybody from the Albuquerque area ?

Good questions Johnny! I'll take the first one. How do you know the cards are 4 hours old? Well, you could ask but could you trust the answer? How old the cards are is just a very rough indicator. What you really want to know is are the cards clumped? Recognize that in order for team play to function, you need to have lows in a row. That is the only way your sacrifice players can effectively take lows out of the game. Random (new) cards just won't do. So just watch the cards coming out. Are lows following lows meaning also that highs are following highs? Or are they coming out random?

"But", you frown: "If the table is empty, nothing is coming out." Look at the discard shoe. If partially full, the table has been played. Ask the dealer about how many shoes have been played?

But still, you won't know for sure until you start playing. So, OK lets say the cards turn out to be still random. Fine! The team members can play normally as individual players and play straight Basic Strategy. Remember, straight Basic Strategy beats random cards very nicely. So they play a few shoes until the cards ARE clumped and then switch to Team Play. The team can still divvy up normally afterwards. This evens out the individual play results.

This is a neat little trick for a team to know because it means that any team can walk in any casino at ANY time and still expect to beat them quite handily. Tricks of the trade.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Guest

[johnnycs1]

Ahhhhhhhhh !!! I SEE SAY'S THE BLIND MAN !!

I WOULD NEVER HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT !! Pretty neat , huh !

So if it's not clumped , it's random....so play BS , by which , should hold our own or the very least, hang in there ,

till the cards begin to clump ! And than spank them ! Think thats what you are saying ??

How in the heck did you figure all this out Ellis ! Ya not only good looking....ya smart also !

Thanks Ellis....thats great info !!

johnny/albuquerque

[Guest]

Ahhhhhhhhh !!! I SEE SAY'S THE BLIND MAN !!

I WOULD NEVER HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT !! Pretty neat , huh !

So if it's not clumped , it's random....so play BS , by which , should hold our own or the very least, hang in there ,

till the cards begin to clump ! And than spank them ! Think thats what you are saying ??

How in the heck did you figure all this out Ellis ! Ya not only good looking....ya smart also !

Thanks Ellis....thats great info !!

johnny/albuquerque

30 years of study and play. I'm sure I know more about this game than anyone alive.... or dead.... or half alive like me.

[daytrader77459]

Hi, Ellis, Keith, Aegis21, CarlosM, BTC members,

I have been using team BJ approach now for some time in Vegas - using 6 dks and playing 3 hds in spots 1,2,3. BP is spot 1. Then play as near to team BJ approach.

Normally start of playing basic strategy until at least 2-3 shoes to get rhythm of the 6 dks. BTW - I don't sit at tables where they have shuffle machines that switch out 2 different 6dk colored shoes. I sit at hand-shuffled 6 dk tables.

I have observed very frequently that no matter how many steps is tried, like add a spot, or remove a spot, or random vs dealer strategy, etc., it is best to play minimum bets for all BP and SP spots until there is real evidence that clumping has started or is already there.

Unfortunately playing 3 hds for myself, it can take at least 3-5 shoes minimum.

My question to the BTC members: is any of the BTC members currently and actively using Team BJ on a consistent basis? And recording detailed results, and observations? Aegis21? Chaz? Bluetri?

I believe aside from Ellis and CarlosM's exploits using WCB that playing team BJ is really the most simple and relaxing way to play. But I'd like to see if others have success in the east coast or Florida or the Gulf regions.

Ellis also mentioned that 8 dks should be good for team play.

I realize team BJ play is not easy esp if have to meet up with team members on routine schedules, etc. But, I'd love to really attack team play opportunities with BTC members who also have some desire to exploit team BJ. And record and debrief details!

Ellis - good opportunity for your own Team Ellis BJ movie? Or a good fun BJ book for game excitement reading like "Burning the Tables" genre?

Please post your team BJ exploits (if any). I believe there is much more room to explore team BJ (esp w 5-7 hds vs only 3 hds).

Regards,

Daytrader77459

[daytrader77459]

Ellis, Keith, BTC members,

BTW - the nature of my last post is to determine and meet up with experienced team BJ players that are active right now. I have yet to fully achieve the fantastic results that Ellis achieved with team BJ play in the Bahamas (although Ellis did mention the best team play is to combine team members plus some additional factors from NBJ/WCB - but this would complicate team BJ plays considerably).

I'd like to continue real-time active BJ team work to try and achieve the Bahamas results. My results are positive - but always wonder if playing 7 spots would significantly increase positive results.

I'd also like to record and debrief team BJ plays - without having to require all team members to be well-versed in NBJ or WCB.

I know Ellis, CarlosM, Mad Dog, would strongly recommend use of NBJ/WCB for solo play. But I prefer to experiment with more on team play BJ so it can be much more FUN and profitable still, to the many less experienced BTC blackjack enthusiasts.

Any comments or suggestions appreciated.

Regards,

Daytrader77459

[Guest]

Ellis, Keith, BTC members,

BTW - the nature of my last post is to determine and meet up with experienced team BJ players that are active right now. I have yet to fully achieve the fantastic results that Ellis achieved with team BJ play in the Bahamas (although Ellis did mention the best team play is to combine team members plus some additional factors from NBJ/WCB - but this would complicate team BJ plays considerably).

I'd like to continue real-time active BJ team work to try and achieve the Bahamas results. My results are positive - but always wonder if playing 7 spots would significantly increase positive results.

I'd also like to record and debrief team BJ plays - without having to require all team members to be well-versed in NBJ or WCB.

I know Ellis, CarlosM, Mad Dog, would strongly recommend use of NBJ/WCB for solo play. But I prefer to experiment with more on team play BJ so it can be much more FUN and profitable still, to the many less experienced BTC blackjack enthusiasts.

Any comments or suggestions appreciated.

Regards,

Daytrader77459

It is not really for me to say but this looks to me like a good invitation from a serious player.

[Guest CarlosM]

Yes Ellis, I agree what you have said about Daytrader. Hi Daytrader. I hope others will join in with input on their experiences with team play. Every table has an optimum number, wether playing in a team or solo. Team play usually works best with 4 or 5 players, but not always that number. Some games 3 players is optimum, but not always. In practice sessions against highly clumped cards, very long runs, very clean clumps, with 6 and 7 players and it worked out amazingly well. So, experiment until you find the optimum number at THAT table.

[kachatz1]

Ellis, Keith, BTC members,

BTW - the nature of my last post is to determine and meet up with experienced team BJ players that are active right now. I have yet to fully achieve the fantastic results that Ellis achieved with team BJ play in the Bahamas (although Ellis did mention the best team play is to combine team members plus some additional factors from NBJ/WCB - but this would complicate team BJ plays considerably).

Daytrader-

I plan to get educated a bit more B4 I am ready for additional team play, but soon we can get together and I will be your wingman...knowing we will clean-up with the BJ strategies, C.A.R.E.F.U.L.L.Y A.P.P.L.I.E.D ( and executed)

I live in NWFlorida, usually play Biloxi, but can travel...

Also,I have a guest house on my property you can hang out in while we plan our work...

[daytrader77459]

Hi, K1,

Very good - look fwd to some collaboration and play w u. Once u have studied NBJ, I'd suggest u focus towards WCB as it is a much easier tactical BJ game to implement and more consistent.

As Ellis, Keith, Aegis21, have all indicated - team BJ play is very possible and benefits from clumping (if shoes identified as such). However, team BJ plus a table full of NBJ/WCB players as 1 team (with some sacrifice hands) is a very strong way to go.

Rt now I play solo - BP in spot 1, SPs in spot 2 and spot 3. I play WCB in the BP spot 1 position. I try to play sacrifice hds in spot 2, 3 - but using WCB tactics also for spots 2, 3 (which is different than the more elementary guidelines from the Team BJ Parlor manual).

Pls keep us updated of your study and research/tests with NBJ, WCB - and when we can begin and record/document. Be a great fun project!

Thanks,

Daytrader77459