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Hi, Ellis, BTC members,

I have attached a PDF file that contains our first BJ Team Play results and debriefing details. It is rather long and I elected NOT to post it here in this thread - but instead to post it as an attachment to BTC members who may be interested in our results.

Please feel free to add your comments and insights. There is still much to be learned here! And, I hope to hear additional Team BJ trip reports from other teams. This can be a "lean forward" intel network for our BTC members who enjoy playing BJ.

Thanks to Ellis for your tireless efforts and comments and answers to my endless questions!

Regards,

Daytrader77459

BJ Team Play Results from 08.07.12 - Edited Version.pdf

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Congratulations for your winnings daytrader77459 and I hope you continue in that way!!

Can I ask you a couple of questions:

1. I see that you are a NOR Bac Player.. do you think that BJ Team Play is easier and more profitable than Baccarat game?

2. As I can see in your Trip Report and all the comments in here.. do you think that every day will be a winner day and you never going to lose a single day?

Thanks

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Ha, Daytrader had just asked me yesterday if 2 units an hour is feasible. Hell, that's what you should be tipping the dealer and waitress. I think he's been reading too many card counting books. I told him no, 10 or more. But his 19 and 16 per hour is a good start. I've been trying to tell you guys, I'm teaching you a whole different league of play. I left the card counters in the dust 30 years ago. Maybe what it takes is somebody else telling you. After all, I'm biased.

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Randy, I can't edit your attachment to post #1. All I can do is delete it. So would you please edit your attachment and delete all but your results in items 8 and 9. You can post those right here if you would. Remember, this is an open forum so I can't allow open discussion of the details of Team Play here. But save your whole attachment for reasons you will soon see.

But you seem very determined to form an open discussion Team Play group. What I might be able to do is give you a private Team Play forum for that purpose. After the seminar I suspect we will have about 100 Team Play members of all skill levels.

But results posting right here is fine and I hope you continue posting such posts right here in the open BJ forum. We probably have at least several members still contemplating Team Play here. And I'm sure they would much prefer hearing results from fellow members than from me.

But your complete post #1 plus your questions to me via private Email bring another point of Team Play up we haven't talked about yet.

While both you and I are both sticklers for play accuracy, note that you won anyway inspite of several beginner mistakes. Also recognize that in the Bahamas none of these 48 people had any knowledge of Team Play beforehand. Everything they knew about Team Play when they played the first night, they learned at breakfast that same morning. Many had never even played BJ before. So there were a few fiascos the first night. One team started with their BP in the wrong seat. In fact, a member of that team is still on this forum. That is how I found out they did this.

I couldn't be on ten teams at once so I simply BPed one team and a different team each night. But to make a long story short MANY mistakes were made. Yet we won anyway. But we had a powwow at breakfast each morning so play got better as we went.

But in spite of many mistakes every team won. Just as in your case, you won in spite of mistakes. This is normal for team play. You aren't depending on the nitty gritty of each and every play each player makes. And sometimes he has choices such as doubling. What you are depending on is the overall effect team play has on a shoe of cards.

Just as Basic Strategy eventually sets up the cards in the dealer's favor, in spite of player mistakes, Team Play quickly sets up the cards in the player's favor in spite of player mistakes. Especially the BP. You may or may not notice much in the first shoe. What you notice is that as you go, the shoe gets more and more player favorable. And this occurs no matter how they try to shuffle and even occurs if they skip the shuffle altogether, as they tried on my team the very first night. There is no casino defense that I know of. Believe me, they tried everything. Except I don't know about continuous shufflers. They might spoil the fun or they might have no effect. I just don't know.

My point is that Team Play is very forgiving. You win in spite of mistakes. And as you quickly found, you tend to win a lot. They longer you stay at a table the better your win rate gets. BUT also, the longer you stay at a table the more paranoid the casino gets. So you must avoid overstaying your welcome and learn to move around a lot. If you can call that a drawback, it is the only drawback I have found with Team Play. Besides, it was fun wasn't it. And it gets even more fun as a team plays and perfects their play. Once your play becomes automatic you enjoy yourselves that much more.

Edited by Guest
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Ellis,

Please note the edited trip report in post #1. I have focused the edited report on the results of the play. I have also emailed you the full trip report in RTF format.

Thank you for all of your time and help with my private questions and details!!!

Daytrader77459

Thank you! I have already talked to Keith about it and a private BJ Team Play forum is forthcoming. There we will be frre to discuss all details of this approach.

Also, the Team Play manual is now complete as of this morning and I sincerely thank the members who helped me get it out so Quickly. With their help we were able to write it from a players point of view. I think it is the best, easiest to understand manual I have ever put out. All who are signed up for the Aug 25th Vegas Team Play seminar will receive a copy in advance.

Anyone who wants a manual at the seminar price need only sign up for the seminar, whether they actually go or not.

Daytrader, I've already sent you a copy. Once you have had a chance to read it would you please tell the members here what your initial impressions are. I'm sure the guys would much rather hear this from you, rather than from me. Thanks in advance.

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Hello All!!

First, let me say thank you to Ellis, Keith and everyone else who gives great insight on this site. I am a new member of the baccarat side(NOR) and am still applying everything over there. I gave up on blackjack a while ago because I thought the 50/50 bac would be easier to beat. Wow, wrong. So this team play instruction seems very exciting. I already signed up for it.

Hey Daytrader, just a couple questions if I may...

1. When you played your 3 positions were there any stragglers limping in or was it strict team play at your table?

2. You must have had 2 or 3 players with you so why not play 4 or 6 positions from the start?

3. Did you already have all the info on team play before you started or is there more to be disclosed to you?

4. optional... Where are you from? I may want to join/start a weekly team in my area after I read the fine print in a couple weeks.(you can pm me--I would appreciate it)

Again, thanks everyone for everything that I have read so far on this and the baccarat planet. Sooooo much to still learn.

ps. I don't really know if my questions are out of line for the public forum, so delete them if need be Ellis.

Edited by kramden
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Hello, Ellis, BTC members, and new visitors,

I have reviewed the final Team BJ manual from Ellis this morning. I know in detail how much time and effort he put into this project! And on top of it all, he also had to be dealing with detailed questions and reports from me ad infinitum!!! Ellis has tremendous patience and energy to put it together like this.

My summary of the manual is this: NO ONE can decipher how to play Ellis team BJ play without the team manual. Second, all serious gamers should make every effort to attend the Aug 25th seminar:

1. This may be Ellis' last detailed seminar - and will include both Team BJ and NOR!!!

2. From a personal perspective, any manual CANNOT handle key questions on tactics and betting and risk mgmt. You must meet the man himself and others who have executed and played thru the vacillations of Team BJ play. I know a few former Team BJ members will also be there!

The manual itself is relatively short but you must read, and re-read, several times over, to make certain you did not overlook or misinterpret some details (I did misread few items).

The style of Team BJ play is very counter-intuitive and will open your eyes!!! I am sure quark711 can also confirm this, right?

I know Ellis and Keith are working on a Private Forum for Team BJ play - and this is a must for detailed trip reports, detailed briefs, sharing network info on tables and "heat", etc. Ellis and Keith are # 1 when it comes to support and ongoing continuing education.

I have all of the other BJ works like Zero Prox, NBJ, WCB. But, Team BJ is a more simple but highly focused strategy. Easier to learn and execute without errors after several practice sessions!

Thank you Ellis again!

Daytrader77459

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Hi, Danicito,

I tried Team BJ play just a couple of days ago - and already I have several sessions under my belt. Ellis has been helping to answer my research questions on tactics in great detail. He is an excellent and patient teacher.

Let me take your questions by the number:

1. I do think that Team BJ play is easier than NOR. From execution perspective, Team BJ play is fairly mechanical and consistent.

The NOR baccarat approach is not a mechanical system. It is a compilation of systems designed to exploit sections of baccarat shoe biases. This takes some experience and also always require the NOR baccarat player to have focus and situational awareness as to what exploit may be developing right now in front of his/her eyes. There is some judgment and bias that comes into NOR. However, when coupled with 123 4 progressions and table/shoe selection criteria, we have been able to have high win rates.

The Team BJ play approach is different in that there is really no key decision making except to follow the rules. The focus is to feed high cards to the dealer to increase the dealer break rate. My own play (however brief now after 9 sessions) has seen that it takes at least 2 shoes to begin to see some positive changes. Of course, I had some deviations of play. Ellis said it takes about 1 shoe to see changes begin to go against the dealer hands.

Summary: Team BJ play is "easier" than NOR baccarat.

2. Can a high performance gamer achieve wins every day? Well, certainly Ellis did! For me, it is a question of semantics. If I had several rough sessions in baccarat or BJ - but able to get back most of the loss or break-even for the day, I consider that a WIN.

Can a gamer hit a specific daily target like +5 units? or +50 units? or +500 units? Per day? Much more difficult here. Certainly setting a lower daily target is easier to reach. If you are playing for more than +15 units per day, then you must become an expert in table/shoe selection - for both BJ and baccarat!!! No getting around this - you must learn and develop the skill, situational awareness, to know "this is going to be a winning shoe" AND "I need to bail out of this shoe ASAP".

I personally have not won every single day from a $$$ perspective. But my results are better and my winning trip sessions are higher % nowadays. Plus, I debrief in detail on all sessions - BJ and Baccarat - so in that manner, I am in fact "winning" as I continue to review and implement lessons learned!!!

I hope this helps you gain some perspective - I enjoy playing both BJ (Team BJ and WCB) and NOR baccarat. One is not any better than the other - although complexities and bankroll variance and achievable targets may differ some.

My opinion is: eat it all up and enjoy!!! Know both and its details, and know yourself as a gamer in detail - and you will be much farther ahead than most gamers!!!

Regards,

Daytrader77459

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Hi, KR,

Let me take your questions in order.

1. When I played my sessions, remember that my rules had some deviations from the Team BJ manual rules. I had one other non-team player but he did not last very long. He busted out quickly. My play was not impacted by other players. HOWEVER - if you follow the Team BJ rules, Ellis is correct when he says other players will definitely leave quickly - believing that Team BJ playing tactics are completely off-base!!! So limpers would not be an issue with Team BJ play.

2. I played by myself - 3 spots in total. Primarily played 6 dk hand-shuffled shoes. I played 1 session (1 hr) that was 6 dk with dual shuffle machines. Boy, losing session. Could not get dealer bust rate up even after 1 hr. I don't know if it is just bad luck, or had anything to do with the dual shoe shuffle machine. But in any case, went to another casino with hand shuffle, and won my losses back and more. I must defer to Ellis and his experience with Team BJ play to determine if dual shoe shuffle machines had any adverse impact on team profitability.

3. Yes - I had some early "recon info" from Ellis himself on reading the drafts of Team BJ manual. I already had some ideas about it, but the real shocker is a strategic key deviation of the rest of the positions' playing tactics.

4. Ok.

I recommend that you buy the Team BJ manual - attend the Aug 25th seminar. Experience BJ and NOR players will be there to answer your detailed questions!!! Great learning opportunity. Hope to see you there.

Regards,

Daytrader77459

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I think the impact of dual shoe shuffle machines is that now you have to prep two shoes rather than one so it will take twice as long to get the game going your way. Best to stick with hand shuffle if you can. Many of the smaller casinos still have hand shuffled, just as you found.

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Hello, Ellis, BTC members, and new visitors,

I have reviewed the final Team BJ manual from Ellis this morning. I know in detail how much time and effort he put into this project! And on top of it all, he also had to be dealing with detailed questions and reports from me ad infinitum!!! Ellis has tremendous patience and energy to put it together like this.

My summary of the manual is this: NO ONE can decipher how to play Ellis team BJ play without the team manual. Second, all serious gamers should make every effort to attend the Aug 25th seminar:

1. This may be Ellis' last detailed seminar - and will include both Team BJ and NOR!!!

2. From a personal perspective, any manual CANNOT handle key questions on tactics and betting and risk mgmt. You must meet the man himself and others who have executed and played thru the vacillations of Team BJ play. I know a few former Team BJ members will also be there!

The manual itself is relatively short but you must read, and re-read, several times over, to make certain you did not overlook or misinterpret some details (I did misread few items).

The style of Team BJ play is very counter-intuitive and will open your eyes!!! I am sure quark711 can also confirm this, right?

I know Ellis and Keith are working on a Private Forum for Team BJ play - and this is a must for detailed trip reports, detailed briefs, sharing network info on tables and "heat", etc. Ellis and Keith are # 1 when it comes to support and ongoing continuing education.

I have all of the other BJ works like Zero Prox, NBJ, WCB. But, Team BJ is a more simple but highly focused strategy. Easier to learn and execute without errors after several practice sessions!

Thank you Ellis again!

Daytrader77459

And Thank You Daytrader for your continued and loyal support both here and at BF! You are greatly appreciated by both me and the membership!

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I really want to thank you guys for clarify my doubts.

Maybe this question has already responded. In the scenario 1 player playing multiple hands (3 or 4 hands) what would be the bankroll (in units)?

another... Does the manual have a glossary of terms? this is because my english is limited. My native language is Spanish.

Thanks

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member
Hello, Ellis, BTC members, and new visitors,

I have reviewed the final Team BJ manual from Ellis this morning. I know in detail how much time and effort he put into this project! And on top of it all, he also had to be dealing with detailed questions and reports from me ad infinitum!!! Ellis has tremendous patience and energy to put it together like this.

My summary of the manual is this: NO ONE can decipher how to play Ellis team BJ play without the team manual. Second, all serious gamers should make every effort to attend the Aug 25th seminar:

1. This may be Ellis' last detailed seminar - and will include both Team BJ and NOR!!!

2. From a personal perspective, any manual CANNOT handle key questions on tactics and betting and risk mgmt. You must meet the man himself and others who have executed and played thru the vacillations of Team BJ play. I know a few former Team BJ members will also be there!

The manual itself is relatively short but you must read, and re-read, several times over, to make certain you did not overlook or misinterpret some details (I did misread few items).

The style of Team BJ play is very counter-intuitive and will open your eyes!!! I am sure quark711 can also confirm this, right?

I know Ellis and Keith are working on a Private Forum for Team BJ play - and this is a must for detailed trip reports, detailed briefs, sharing network info on tables and "heat", etc. Ellis and Keith are # 1 when it comes to support and ongoing continuing education.

I have all of the other BJ works like Zero Prox, NBJ, WCB. But, Team BJ is a more simple but highly focused strategy. Easier to learn and execute without errors after several practice sessions!

Thank you Ellis again!

Daytrader77459

Boys and Girls:

Pay attention...this WILL NOT be Ellis' last hurrah!

Already added a NOR segment on to BJ seminar in Vegas...

Already have an NOR seminar planned for LA later same month, albeit with a mystery teacher we are about to get intoduced to by the Keith-ster!

Why do you think all the new shows are about vampires?

(BCUZ they smell blood!)

Ellis is in. As in All-IN!

Just like on TV!

Now, we have to get him that FC upgrade trip to Singapore...

Witchy, where are you?

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Boys and Girls:

Pay attention...this WILL NOT be Ellis' last hurrah!

Already added a NOR segment on to BJ seminar in Vegas...

Already have an NOR seminar planned for LA later same month, albeit with a mystery teacher we are about to get intoduced to by the Keith-ster!

Why do you think all the new shows are about vampires?

(BCUZ they smell blood!)

Ellis is in. As in All-IN!

Just like on TV!

Now, we have to get him that FC upgrade trip to Singapore...

Witchy, where are you?

Jeez, I've been desperately trying to retire for 15 years now. But then Keith calls. Seems to always be something left undone.

"But Keith, I can't walk!" "I know, I'll carry you!"

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Ellis,

Will you consider offering a team blackjack seminar in Atlantic City perhaps during the Fall season for us members who couldn't get out to experience the Vegas seminar. Thanks

I would like to. It depends on my health and how well I can get around at the Vegas seminar. I don't have any experience with this crippled stuff.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Boys and Girls:

Pay attention...this WILL NOT be Ellis' last hurrah!

Already added a NOR segment on to BJ seminar in Vegas...

Already have an NOR seminar planned for LA later same month, albeit with a mystery teacher we are about to get intoduced to by the Keith-ster!

Why do you think all the new shows are about vampires?

(BCUZ they smell blood!)

Ellis is in. As in All-IN!

Just like on TV!

Now, we have to get him that FC upgrade trip to Singapore...

Witchy, where are you?

Hah I'm still here! Just happen to see my name mentioned! I'm still looking into the legalities part so it may take a while. Of cos it will be great to meet Ellis in person as well as senior members from the states in Singapore!

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Hah I'm still here! Just happen to see my name mentioned! I'm still looking into the legalities part so it may take a while. Of cos it will be great to meet Ellis in person as well as senior members from the states in Singapore!

Hi Witchy! We are having a little problem with post notifications we are in the process of fixing so I didn't see your post until today.

Tell me, how popular is BJ in Singapore? Like how many BJ tables does a casino have compared to Bac? I think Singapore plays European BJ rules, right? In other words, they don't deal the dealer's second card until all play is complete. I have played this way, particularly Paradise Island (attached to Nassau by bridge) and in the Canary Islands. I see no difference in the outcome. It gives the 3rd base player more control over the dealer's hand but it eliminates any read of the dealer's hole card before you make your decision. About a wash. I found it highly beatable.

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I Have played your team play blackjack for the past several weeks and have made several modifications to your manual. Actually at your seminar in Vegas in August you actually insisted that the team play manual is not written in stone. If anyone is interested in the changes I've made you can reply to this message. Biggest problem in the manual is when player #2 receives a ten and the next three or four players have very low hands and stand.

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I Have played your team play blackjack for the past several weeks and have made several modifications to your manual. Actually at your seminar in Vegas in August you actually insisted that the team play manual is not written in stone. If anyone is interested in the changes I've made you can reply to this message. Biggest problem in the manual is when player #2 receives a ten and the next three or four players have very low hands and stand.

Hi Chaz,

You have to have the above play in the context of the entire game. Are there lone tens in the game? Was the last two rounds high? or low? how long are the clumps? Did the first base player stand with a pair of tens?

Lots of questions here for sure.

What changes have you made and what did you base those changes on?

Thanks in advance!

John

"If you don't think too good, don't think too much!!"

-----------------------

John

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