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Ellis: NOR Manual Additions/Corrections etc

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Can you please outline any additions or corrections or differences from the NOR manual from 2011 that have been made? I want to make sure I have all the correct up to date information and I'm sure others would benefit with this information as well.


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Well I can come pretty close:

1. While F was our streak system we reduced it to our Strong Side System.

2. We added TB4L as our streak system which has no modes and can only lose to 2s.

3. We simplified Mode decision to +OR count = Mode 3 and - or 0 OR count = Mode 2.

4. We can now clarify system selection to:

Hi 1's and Hi 1's and 2s = S40

Hi 2s and Hi 2s and 3s = OTB4L

Hi 1s and/or Hi 3+s = TB4L

Hi 4+s = TB4L

Lo 2s = TB4L

Lo 1's bet Repeats

Strong side by 2 to 1 or better = F

While some can tell which of the above a shoe favors, SAP gives us that information precisely.

Learn how to conduct a SAP count along with your OR count

While the basic prog for NOR is still 123 4 with a goal of +10

for particularly good NOR tables we added U1D2 betting with a goal of +20. We called that NOR+.

Then along came the advent of FACTORY preshuffled cards - particularly in Vegas and Macau.

We declared that while NOR is still the system of choice for regular cards (Most of the U.S.)

MDB+ is now the system of choice for factory preshuffled cards.

Don't bet a 2 until you have won a 1 bet.

345 is still the recommended prog for a high first bet hit rate.

I think that about covers it but if anyone sees anything I omitted.....

Edited by Ellis
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Hello. This is my first post. Just a quick question. When you say bet repeats, do you mean same as last decision each time, or bet that each new side will repeat once? Thanks in advance.

For maulding and ALL the new guys. Well, and for the old guys too: Hi Steve!

Same as last decision.

Repeat = Same as last decision. Decision meaning the side that won the last play.

Opposite = Opposite whichever side won the last play.

System S40 bets Opposites until it goes OTR (On The Run) either after 2 losses (MODE 2) or 3 losses (Mode 3) When it loses OTR it goes back to Opposites.

If our first OTR bet wins S40 stays on the run for 2 plays in Mode 2 but only one play in Mode 3

UNTIL and IF that proves wrong for the shoe at hand.

Mode 2 only stays OTR for ONE play if that proved correct last time.

But if getting off the run proved wrong we stay on all runs until we lose.

We do Whatever proved correct most of the time in the shoe at hand thus far.

But once a decision is made we stick with it regardless of what the shoe does from there on.

BECAUSE if we switch every time the shoe switches we COULD be wrong EVERY time.

While if we stick with our decision, we are usually right MOST of the time - if not ALL the time.

Only Systems S40 and OTB4L have MODES. TB4L has no modes.

You will learn the O/R count also referred to as OR Count. Opposites vs Repeats.

ONCE you learn the OR count THAT decides the modes for S40 and OTB4L.

An OR count that favors + is Mode 3.

An OR count that favors - or 0 is Mode 2.

You will find that keeps you in the right Mode most often and STOPS you from being wrong every time.

OTB4L bets OPPOSITE the Time Before Last which strangely is the same as saying OTB4L bets an Opposite will follow a Repeat and a Repeat will follow an Opposite.

TB4L (low 2s) Bets same as Time Before Last - that a Repeat will follow a Repeat and an Opposite will follow an Opposite.

NOR'S System F is only played when a Strong Side (SS) is winning 2 to 1 or more.

F Follows the SS until it loses twice F2 or 3 times F3

F can be a huge winner (+30) in those rare SS shoes.

System Selection: Use the SAP count to determine:

Lo 1's = Bet Repeats

Lo 2s is always TB4L

Hi 1's and 2s = S40

Hi 2s and 3s = OTB4L

Hi 1s and 3+s = TB4L ("3+s" means 3 or mores)

F = Strong Side

ALL of the above is NOR - Neutral, Opposite Repeat in a nut shell. Saves you from reading a thousand pages BUT read them anyway.

Uncle Ellis

Edited by Ellis
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Very nice recap on the rules for NOR. Thank you for doing this Ellis. I have the NOR manual, The NOR BootCamp Manual, and most recently upgraded to MDB. I do not see where there are the Rules for SAP. Is there a Manual for SAP or a post on the Forum that explains it? Thank you in advance!

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I've been reading from the "outside" for a few months and lots of stuff on the "inside" since joining last month.

Lots and lots of crap to sift thru all the threads, but most of it seems to be summed up by Ellis here. Thank you!!!

I still play a few practice shoes a day and have only gotten to the casino a couple times (about 3 shoes worth and a few bucks ahead total).

Two things -

1 - I've read thru half of the 60 pages of the NOR+ thread. Is that more or less the leading up to Million Dollar Bac? The additions to OTB4L seem insightful.

2 - It seems that NOR can be simply summed by what Ellis has stated here and don't play tough shoes.

Call me Mr. Obvious.

I think some people browsing on the outside could figure out how to use NOR and win on the easy shoes.

For me, the discipline of getting myself up from the table on tough shoes is still a work in progress. The thing that's makes this even harder is not having many choices of places to play in Hoosier land (table selection). When I can get to the casino, I want to PLAY!

Anybody else here play in Northern Indiana? Or down near Tampa? I'm heading down there later this month and was going to try the Hard Rock.


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Hello Druck

Some advice I could offer you that has helped me:

Practice a lot and when you do you should find you will favour one system over the others because either you like it or you find it easy to win with.

Look for shoes of that type because that is what you know and like and can win with the easiest.

If the tables you are playing don't show that type then wait till they do, if they change away from that then stop.

Meanwhile keep practising the other systems just as much or more as your opinions may change.

I hated OTBL when I started but now love it although at the moment S40 is the craze as I seem to see all choppy roulette tables and I'm just seeing $ signs with S40.

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  • 1 month later...

I finally got a chance to play recently at the Blue Chip. Did OK with S40 on a new shoe and was down a little at the end of an OTB4L looking shoe that changed at the very end.

Life should be slowing down some now and I am hoping to get to play more soon. Maybe we could meet up somewhere between Joliet and Mich City.

Looks like the Forum is changing. I can't seem to find some of the old posts / Forum Folders.


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