TomM

MVS, No problemo here. I hav'nt ask for a cash out yet though. I have heard of nobody on the net getting stiffed by these folks and it beats the hell out of smoking a pack of cigerattes per session at many B&M joints. I would just start with 2 or 3 hundred and play nickles and then get to dimes on their money and usually have 3 tables to chose from. It took me a while to get used to their format with having to rebet after every hand and tie but I was just to used to practicing at Dublinbet. I like to leave the sound on level 1 just enough so that I can hear the bet clock ticking down. Then if I don't hear the winning jingle I know I lost or it was a tie. I still forget to rebet sometimes after a tie when I am real tired, but I play easy nickel games watching TV a lot but turn it off for dimes and occasional green. I still tend to overplay my personal limitations online because it is so convenient. I find it best now when I am done with a session to turn it off, bcause when you are dead tired you tend to see the best shoe ever dealt and enter it just as it goes downhill. Hell, I've done that plenty in B&M joints too,so nothing new there. I find you have to create a whole new set of rules for online play because the shoes are just a mouse click away 24/7. Good luck and watch out for good exploit opportunities there. I wish I knew if more of these online casinos that use these big cards have a harder time producing consistant results I am just not familiar with the over-sized cards. Bph deals the most volitale shoes of anyplace I have ever seen online or B&M.

John, I am no shill for Bph but I scoured the internet before depositing there and cannot not find anything bad about them. I checked with the casinomeister and even though they have little input about Bph on the forum the few that I read were favorable. I am not planning a withdrawal until I have 20K in there and then I will probably leave 10K in. If you can confirm your suspicions let us know but check with all the sports betting forums. Some of those guys are hauling out considerable sums and no body is making any fuss about them that I head of. Hey anything is possible when it comes to money. I just can't find any concrete evidence that Betphoenix is stiffing there patrons. Yes they do market intensely so if you don't want a call from them don't give them your phone # when you sign up. After I made a small deposit I never heard from them again. I have called their support a few times and found them knowledgeable and competent. There is an post in one of the huge sports books forums about them having flown the operator of the forum down to the Bph compound and it is a large operation. They employ 100's of locals and the guy went on to say how impressed he was with the whole works. I wished I had bookmarked that but that was a 3 months or more ago anyway. I have tracked the dealers shifts, card rack and shoe position and the whole nine yards but can't find anything out of the ordinary even when they come back from there normal 5 minute break to reset the servers and the shoe always comes back to what I might expect from where it left off. If I can come up with some hard evidence that they are stiffing their patrons I will be the first to sound off right here but I am just not seeing that now. The link in Kills post above just takes you to something called Bookie something and the article is not dated and no byline so I tend not to give that much credibility unless some 3rd party that I have heard of can substantiate that. What chance do we have here in the USA with what’s going on (better yet..whats not going on in D.C) it could be years before the whole online gambling thing is even addressed. The way things are right now I will probably be dead before the law is even addressed let alone changed. If things were different I would be playing several different online casinos but that isn't an option right now. The shift changes have always gone flawlessly when I am on their site. Also when something weird happens (card doesn’t scan properly or something) the pit will replace it deliberately in front of the camera that is constantly showing CNN or something with real time news. I do have to put a post-it note over Larry Kings mug when he on the tube but other than that no problemo. If you are a citizen of the USA start calling your Congressman and Senators and tell the bums to start looking for new gig.

Here is a reply I wrote to the question that Ellis posed on Marks Maverick thread but by the time I got back online Mark posted his three shoes and an explanation of his system so I think being that this is focused on F-series betting I will just put it here for now. I don't think it is going to answer any specific questions just my overview of messing around with it for the last couple of weeks. As Below: Ellis, Getting a few more units out of the shoe awaiting the F3 signal makes good sense to me. I think if the 1’s were running long and strong I might attempt to play against the 3 and bet for the over and under ZZ’s to continue in some shoes. I guess it would just depend on the make up of the shoe up till then. If it was in the 1st column I guess it wouldn‘t make much difference how you played the 3 in a row. I think it is a good idea to use ladder betting on the ZZ’s if the 1’s are going long enough to support it. The nice thing about betting straight down on shorter ZZ’s is the prospect that the run will end on the side you are betting down on.. Strong sided shoes with lots of 1‘s and particularly solitary 1‘s are best played with F-series while avoiding the RD1 lone 1‘s problem. When the f-series is working well it takes almost all the decisions away. It seems as if all you have to do is set it up and then get out of the way. Once its on a roll all you have to do is decide if you want to up the stakes at some point. Some shoes are just so bizarre that it seems the more you think it out the deeper you go in. Just better to deploy F-series and watch for a game change. It is one of the few systems that seems to beg to be played more aggressively when it is easily working. Also at times I blew through where I should have switched to the other side…sometimes helped me sometimes hurt so my results aren’t pristine. Just my 2 cents.

It's easy to get enamored by the F - series and it does work very well if it is deployed properly. It will battle through stuff when RD1 and other systems are stalling out but in general look for high diparity...lone ones mixed in with other trash and it does just fine. I've been blinded by the light a couple of times when I was focusing on f2-3 deployment and forgot to see the less risky OTB4L staring me in the face. I think Ellis made that point in this thread or somewhere. I think that needs to be reemphasized because as a shoe begins to balance out and become more OTB4L/SKOR favorble you would be playing to a higher risk at those times versus just switching to OTB4L. I was over at Bph for a few shoes today and was struggling a bit so looked through all the tables there and all the shoes were putting out about the same. I looked more carefully and saw all my shoes were basically 3's and 4 opposites (counted correctly) and a mixture of other short stuff. Got a little frustrated and just started mindlessly playing System/zero and it went through most stuff without a care in the world and I just picked off some of those units... the low hanging fruit ones. If the shoe started putting out the 2's I used Otb4L as a filler or visa-versa and picked up easy units in those sections of the shoe. I fought those suckers for a couple hours before it dawned on me that all I was seeing was zero type shoes...DUH. F2 and F3 is pretty nifty when its working though!!!

PJ In the -10 shoe in post #144 it appears that if you use the rule to flat bet 1 unit until a +3 your worst posiion in the shoe is -5 and end at play #36 with -3 if I did this right half asleep. This seems to control drawdown in poor starts and increase survivability until the shoe changes or a new rule can be brought to bear in these rough starts. I don't believe the flat betting till a +3 will hurt you much in favorable shoes as it much as it helps in bad shoes. This is just a guess and hoping that holding to this similiar guideline in skor/ks, flat betting until +6 before firing 2 unit bets would help here. Either way this is a tough start without some intervention at -4 or something like that.

PJ, Congradulations on a great trip! Was the one muther of a shoe the result of a bad start or a consistant pounding of lone ones or something else? This appears to have the ability to power through most shoes if the start doesn't get you and maybe the lone 1's can be defused or even taken advantage of at times. In the shoe above it appears the 1's makeup would be hard to guess at. It winds through some pretty wierd stuff with lttle give back here. Is this consistant with most of your shoes from Tunica or do the scores fluctuate enough that you feel you might want to lock up a win at some point in the shoe? Do you think the lone losing shoe can be fixed somehow without upsetting the apple cart? Is there a losing sequence that is identifiable enough that the plug could easily be pulled if we don't manage to lose it in the 1st column? Thanks again for all the work you put into these systems. I couldn't function as well without seeing some of your shoes. When you find the time can you post the losing shoe ? A picture being worth thousand words and all that...

Sorry Bacc haven't found the time to practice with RD1/n yet. I'm still at one shoe played that way and holding. From what I see up to now it handles the shoes system zero likes nicely played as it is now or with the slight tweak with the v.1 Guidelines. That in itself is very encouraging. A 2 Hi system that can beat Zero shoes is something to be reckoned with. I am playing a lot online now trying to put a roll together for a road trip this summer. I figure cruising Canada and try as many of the smoke free joints and see if I can hook up with some of our Canadian members for some online and B&M play. I am looking for more posts from those that have the time to practice RD1/n straight or the version (incomplete) that I used. I think that when these oddball Zero shoes crop up just play a 2,3 negative prog., possibly with half units if you are getting more straight runs of 3 and rarely any straight runs of 5. Playing for half units makes sense for this here unless the casino is hitting you with these shoes consistently. Alternately you could play a full unit at 1.5 , 1. If you are winning the 1.5 unit bet getting a lot of 3's and 4 opposites (counted correctly) keep going and if it falters the shoe is producing more 4,s you only lose a half unit there and if that continues one more time you are most likely looking at a shoe that can be beat with RD1 or what I call RD/0 (adjusting for the lone 1's). I think this may be a practical way to get through these basically unreadable shoe types without a steep negative prog. This is simpler to do online because in the B&M joints the better players will bail these tables (if there is anywhere else to go) which typically leaves you heads-up or in a stare down contest with the last man standing as to who is going to play the off hands. It would be nice to see RD1/n tweaked so it plays well across all shoes types as this would solve a multitude of problems while keeping the game 2 Hi. Failing that the U1D2 version capped at 5 may be the way to go. I haven't tried that yet looking forward to PJ posting up some of his Tunica shoes. Also give Eliis a chance to go over those shoes with PJ and see what comes of that. There are so many good systems here that can be combined in this or that way that folks who want to stay 2hi can do so with good results and others that don't mind a steeper progression do even better. Proper discipline and MM is all that is required from then on. I am very interested to see how this whole RD1/n Antii-RD1 thing plays out in the coming days. Right now I am sticking with a list of initials at the top of my card that reads KS/BB/RD1-0/Z. I could throw in sys 40 and F2 and F3 except I was already playing a version of those from the margin anyway, while keeping up the slor/ks notation or playing single side betting with the emerging M&M method. I still like too use the SKOR prog as a roadmap and then add the others from the margin. It would be nice to have RD1/n working as a net betting base if it plays well in most Zero shoes.

Ok, Bacc will give it a shot Asap. I am still very slow playing this way so give me a day or two. Have to watch for the WLW's to avoid many mistakes. Once I can play this thing with any additional tweaks it may need probably testing against DB dealers on puppy-uppers will be the acid test for me.

Right Sam I believe Sys/0 ends at +19...Always quite a bit more of the "pucker factor" with Sys/0 but you can play it dead tired and usually win if the shoe appears Sys/0 ripe. Might play system zero in shoes dominated by 3 in a row and 4 ops (counted correctly) possibly with a 2,3 neg. prog at half units and forget doubling...if loss the prog see why you lost and resume with the appropriate system. I just started playing Bph with no card at times half watcing tv half playing Sys 40, OTb4L, and TB4L and that is a very comfortble way to play for me. I'm not recommending playing without a card but I was on the nickel table and allowed a 10 point spead and made a couple $50.00 bets to bail out of a couple bad situations. I was playing that in fun mode just to see if I could pull it off. Sys 40 and OTB4L wins a hole lot of most shoes and TB4L picks up the remainer. I don't even dream of playing skor/ks or now RD1/n 2Hi without a card. I usually have the tv on but muted and the phone riinger turned off but can see the light fash and caller ID if it appears urgent. Always nice to have some music plalying though. Still to early but it may be that RD1/n-2Hi may play just fine with some skor/ks MM guidelines lightened up. It's may be simiiar to skor/ks in that it hits sections of shoes that it stumbles in than step in and take your best guess flat betting to get back the loss, and then resume. Being that RD1/n handles the Zero shoes pretty well it should work better than skor/ks if my early guess is correct. Time will tell I quess.

Lennys shoe played with RD1/n-2Hi v.1 (Same shoe as in post #121) I am messing around with the same shoes as in the post above to see if a slight tweak would do any harm. This is still the only shoe I have tested with RD1/n and it is starting to click for me but still not at all fluid with it yet. I am attempting to have it conform to similar rules that I use for skor/ks only hopefully simpler. G-1 Start the shoe normal RD1/n betting except do not make a two unit bet until you have 3 units banked. G-2 Hit the Panic Button at -4 and try to examine the shoe and see why you are losing. If you lose two more bets whether normal RD1/n bets or your new bets lose reassess at -6 and try again one more time. Easy to change systems and play it from the margin flat betting one unit. If successful you are now back to zero or a little better. You can monitor what RD1/n has been doing and switch back or just wait for to consecutive loses to resume RD1/n net bets. Preliminarily -8 stop loss ends the shoe. G-3 Identify the strongest current trend in the shoe after hitting -4 or -6 and look to pick a Key entry point and flat bet it until it ends with 2 consecutive losses hits the stop-loss or recovers. That’s it for now. In this shoe things were going down hill right from the top so all red ink in the score column not to hard to figure would have to make a move to help out RD1/n. After hitting -4 and stumbling around -5 it started to regain a couple units but decided the lone ones still looked menacing so figured if play 18 wasn't a bank just bet straight down on player hoping the two-ones would continue or just player would stay strong for a few hands. If play 18 had been a bank I would have started betting OTB4L from the margin. It worked out and hit a high of 20 units from a low of -5 so this one worked out OK. Once it hit +3 and the two unit bets started winning in the threes it started taking off. The 2's returned in the 3rd but it went threw those OK with the RD prog suspended most of the column and finished with a couple 4's . Doesn't look like a very good RD1/n shoe to me on the surface but worked out here. I have no idea how this will work out over time but maybe an idea you can use in your play. I still haven't tried the U1D2 version yet so hope to see PJ's report on that when he gets back.

Test upload Lenny shoe replayed by Andrea: Well sounds like PJ is doing well with the RD1/n U1D2 version so I grabbed this from the ones Andrea replayed for Kill and Lenny to see if I could follow his play and I also pick a tough shoe so I could try out an idea that I had to keep a bad shoe within a reasonable stop-loss area. I was hoping to keep this one to a minus 8 but it went to a -9 before it turned around a little. Being this had such a horrible start under the current 2HI rules that Andrea played it by I decided to try something that has worked well for me in skor/ks and m&m thread. Here I just decided not to make a 2-unit bet unit I was ahead by 3 units. I used the margin to do this here. In this shoe I never got a 2 unit bet off by this rule but it controlled the drawdown a bit, keeping it from sliding into double digit loss before turning around. This is the first RD1/n 2 hi shoe I have attempted so I just followed Andreas shoe and from what I know of the WW and WLW rule it appears as if Andreas shoe is mistake free so I hope I didn't screw anything up at this late/early hour. I marked the WLW and WW so you can pick them out if you are having any problems there. It sounds like the good shoes take care of themselves so I thought to focus on the hard ones and see what can be done. This is very preliminary but perhaps flat betting until a +3 would help in bad starts. Reevaluate the shoe when you hit -4 or halfway to whatever the stop-loss may become for the 2HI version. This has worked well for me in the past for several systems. If you stop betting this shoe at -4 and look at what is beating you (the lone ones and 2's) I think it would be good to just play the emerging BP disparity at play #18 and bet straight down on P until B repeats and then resume RD1/n and see how it goes. This shoe is no barn burner for RD1/n but I think this shoe will resume and play to a double digit win this way with the biggest draw down being -4 in this shoe. Like I said this is preliminary and so see what you think...maybe give you some ideas anyway.

Not worried about PJ at all. He'll bring something to bear on them no matter what. That Harrahs Vegas shoe of res' that PJ replayed with RD1/n 2HI was not an easy shoe. I glanced at that thing yesterday and played System zero on it and it hit somewhere in the middle 20's before hitting the lone long opposite run at the end of the shoe. I think system zero played straight through with the 7 units 2,3 all in prog,ends about 17 or 18,if I did it in my head OK. I don't think too many systems could handle that type of shoe that well. mONGo inpressed. Matter of fact I think all of the shoes that res submitted from Harrahs look about the same with one 6 or more spoiler run for Sys/0. I wonder if Harrarhs has a patent on that shoe type because they were hitting that an awful lot in Tahoe in the hand shuffled game. In the 90's that is. Maybe they ripped a page out of Harveys hand shuffled nightmare. I think Harrahs goobled up Haverys in a feeding frenzy if I heard right. Anyway that is one of the reasons I would usually head over to Ceasars back then. Point being if System /0 liked that shoe it is usually a good indicator that it's going to a tough beat for most players. It would really solve a big problem for me if RD1/n can handle most Zero type shoes that well. I'm still goofing with M&M upgrades right now so I haven't had a chance to practice RD1/n yet. Looks good so far.

There goes my Research and Development theory all to hell. Anyway when the shoe is producing mostly lone 1's I just took to calling it RD/0 in the M&M shoe thread. Just stay on the strong side and bet straight down if the lone 1's pattern is consistand enough.I used to call that the drop down bet in U2. I'll do anything before committing to TB4L ! Looks like thinking caps are already on squarely here. I'll putter around in the M&M thread awaiting PJ's live report.

PJ, Likewise. Good luck. Looking forward to your report. SKOR is skip opposte repeat, OTB4L is opposite time before last, what does RD1 stand for?

MVS, Just screwing around with the multiquote thing that I have never used. Earlier tonight I posted a new thread and had a moment...it ended up in the public forum so I finally took the time to find the button to erase the pic. Took forever to backspace through all the text as I could'nt figure out how to undo it. Anyway you did good to get out with chips again. Good discipline. I personally would not jump up to U1D2M2 or stronger progs until the session profits could cover the drawdown potential. You got to be getting some grade A shoes before doing that or have plenty of their chips in your piile. I am working on a sort of hybred to Marks Maverick system that is showing good potential (still early) 2 hi betting with up-as-u-win ladder bets that only bets money already banked. If you are not playing one of those casinos that has figured how to never give you a decent run I expect this thing to average out between 15 and 20 units a shoe if you can wiin a few up as u win progs. It is still a mind grind and I can only last about 4 shoes but if things hold up that should be good enough. I am tentativly calling it M&M but who knows. I am just trying to break away from the net betting skor prog to make things less clunky and than I see the return of net betting with the new RD1/n thread. I haven't really had time to look at that yet. Time will tell I guess. Take the money and grub anyway you can get it from a casino. I worked in the slot department at Harrahs and Harveys for about 10 minutes combined and saw precious few jackpots paid. A million years ago I got hooked into slots when I was living in Reno and it actually paid me off at just the right tiime to get my kester out of Dodge. Hit one of the big bertha old mechanical machines for a grand with a couple hundred in the tray. They gave me a case of wine and corkscrew and some other crap too. That was the last slot machine action for me though. I used to bash those old machines to death in Reno and thought that helped at times. I can't believe I never got chucked out of a joint rocking those things. The old ones are built like shufflemaster machines.....need epoxy down the throat of those guys.

MVS, I agree with PJ. If you are comfortable with it do the MVS+ thread. Your play-by-play is great. You obviously have a winning approach even if it is not totally clear to you what direction to move. I find it helpful to just dump it out here as a form of therapy.

PJ, I'm for it. I say we keep MVS locked in his office and just slide bunches of Seminole casino score cards under the door occasionaly. Maybe let him out twice a week for live play testing down gator way !

MVS System MVS+ = Most Versatile System + (More to Come) I like this !

Andrea, Nice going. I thought this was a winner as soon as I saw it. I think MVS+ is good. Could stand for lots of things like Most Versatile System or Most Viable System or... I'm runing out of gas must get some eats.

Norm: Now you're talking. I actually never had a drink in a casino after 1994 (no foolin') damn cards just start looking to good after a couple belts. Much cheaper to leave the casino if you start to spin out of control. In Tahoe I would just hop a cab head over to the local watering hole...open 24/7 in Nevada ! Either that or head home where the bar never closed. At some point I started taking my magic markers to the table and color code and correct my cards between shuffles. That way it didn't cut into after hour activities. I would get some weird looks at the table but WTF. I remember one night I was playing Hurrahs in Tahoe with one of my short-lived partners and I was charting 3UC that makes some very weird up-as -you- win bets. As long as you are winning your bets just keep on growing but automatically trips out if it hits bump in the road and has a make up prog. Very clever deal this ladder betting angle but sometimes in the wee hours your brain seizes up. We got into a good shoe and I had my partner start pushing my bets out there so I could keep my head buried in my card figuring out the next bet and so on and the pit boss says to me…You have to place your own bets, SIR. So OK this joker is messing with my head so I am trying to figure out the next freaking bet and I have a brain fart and for the life of me I cannot figure out what the hell 32 nickels adds up too. Fortunately the dealer was on the ball and figured out my bet and gave me a chance to regroup. Easier to just play chip denominations that end in zero when ladder betting. The problem now arises when playing online at home. Where do you draw the line between casino and watering hole. They roll up the sidewalks at 2:00 am around here so local watering hole is usually out of bounds playing grave. Guess just adapt… play days hit the bar for happy hour or move to more civilized area. One thing I've learned on cross-country treks is stock your cooler up with cold brewski before hitting Texas state line as there are like three freaking counties in a row that are dry... probably 200 miles of dry. So you do the math.. 1 beer every 10 miles or so, it all adds up. Could cost you a six pack just changing out a flat. Remember boy scout motto and BE PREPARED.

Yeah Andrea I was kind of worried about that too..Maybe MVS+ or something like that. I definately withdraw My earlier MVP/BM (Most Valuable Progression/Bloody Mary) because after a second look it is not a good idea to end any system name with /BM It has certain connotations in USA anyway ! LOL Good luck over BOC way. I did real good the first few times there and then my alter-ego showed up and I forgot baccarat and started hounding the girls. When Cesar is dealing I always ask him for a twenty in a row off the top. I think he gets the signal from the director/pitboss to strip shuffle until the cows come home. I think I got to cool it over there in case they let USA players in I may be wearing out my welcome. Does bring up interesting situations of VIRTUAL CARD CONTROL. Usually by the time I get there it is like 4:00 AM local time and Cesar is already thinking of going home and pounding down a couple but still manages to get out the "Congradulations to all the lucky weiners" after every hand.....I bet he wakes up at night with that line. Real nice freindly crew there for the most part.

I want to change my vote to MVS =Most Viable system or Most Valuable system....or something like that. Saves on ink too ! OK got to have another cup, wait for brainstorm. Tom Most Viable Selection? Naw... still brain dead..more coffee

Hey Guys' Quick head over to the Bhp channel and check out Viviana. She is just waking up and smokin up the joint. I got to put a post-it note over the dealer chair when she is dealing...not fair. There are two Vivianas there is one is wearing the black outfit and the other the purple job today. Ok I'm on my way to San Jose ...DA..Da DADA..TA DA.............. Welll I don't know who shuffled that one but pretty good little mini streaker. I wonder if I will ever see a 20 in a row in this joint. It would seem they would have to screw up once in a while when Carolina does the chuncky shuffle when her nails are drying after lunch. Might be Carolinas day off, don't see her falling out off her clothes today. Bummer for daddy duke. I betcha tall smokin hot Viviana makes more in tokes a week than the president of Costa Rica. She damn well deserves every Peso too. Oh well check out one more shoe than reread MVS's instuction one more time. Enough from the peanut gallery for a spell. :banana:

Well Daza was dealing that one. I can never concentrate when shes dealing. Very mysterious that one. I think she may have a closet full of Crystals and Tarot cards. Hard to figure. Anyway I got back late started about play #18 was thinking System 0 because of bunch of threes off top but ones very high got started in top of second. It was so choppy I forgot what I was doing and fell into playing 112 on the chop. 27 singles in this one....one 5R and good for 15 units. Have to wake up and remember to bet after tie and read MVS's instructions until I get it down. Keep falling back into KS or 112 superchop betting and the like. Time for a break unless Viviana is back on the nickel table. They sure grow them good down there in Costa Rica... something in the water there? Maybe just cabin fever. Got to get down there some day and see what it feels like to be cussed out in Spanish.

OK Guys Over on Bph channel and Viviana is mixing up the big "Eat at Joes" cards. That last shoe had more 3 ops and three's in it. May actually have to put on thinking cap once in a while. Think I may of messed up a transition or two but what the hay. Anyway I gave back a couple units but I like I said probably screwed up. I was just dieing to slip into System Zero but thought I would hang tuff through the three's and 3 ops crap. Next time I put on the brake and hit them over ther head with Sys/0. I managed to scan the entire System 0 last night and it looks OK to me. I am just awaiting for John to send me instuctions on what to do with it. I hear the cards coming out over there so don't to keep the ladies waiting. Back in a flash with periodic updates.