witchygal
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Posts posted by witchygal
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Good Grief, you need to be finding these tables sooner! I'm glad we got the +22 thing straightened out though. But what about core???
I'll take a stab at it but probably wait until morning. As a diabetic, I'm smarter in the morning and it is all down hill after that.
Hmmm, I wonder if Singaporians would go to a seminar in the morning???
Yes Ellis! I am always late and always see these beautiful shoes and when i got to the table they have already gone by 20 hands. However are we supposed to observe the shoe for 15 to 20 hands before jumping in? OR and system to use is always established by 20th hand right? If i have entered from the beginning, i will not know which system to use.
Thank you i will wait for your posting on the shoe. Take a good rest.
Yes i suppose Singaporeans would attend a seminar in the morning if it is held on weekends (saturday or sunday)
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I have been considering the idea of coming to Singapore to do a NOR seminar. Certainly nothing definite yet. I would likely stay with John Malaysia and stay in Asia for a while, maybe a month or two. I would do several seminars in the major cities. The seminars would be bilingual, US English and John Malaysia Chinese.
Formal NOR bilingual manuals would be distributed to the attendees. Attendees would pay $1000 US and also receive membership to BTC. Of course current BTC members would not be charged anything. In fact I would likely put some volunteers to work. At the very least I would need a camera man and a couple workers to run credit cards at the door. Also, security and ushering.
There is a lot of groundwork that needs to be done first: Advertising, location, passport, legal permissions, lisenses, etc.
At this point it is just a foggy notion but I'd like to see your responses and hear your ideas.
Ellis it would be great to have you and Keith come to Singapore! I will volunteer to help out for the seminar too! As i know John will be heading to Vegas in Dec so perhaps your asia tour will be arranged next year?
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Ha, I'm old but I'm not that senile just yet.
Now the question is why didn't you guys also hit +22???
Yes i hit +22 Ellis.
Can i bother you one more time to play the following shoe?
P 1111112121111122
(i started after the above and scored -6 due to modes)
P 13241111413
B 131172131
P 1111232121
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Great work there witchygal, I always enjoy seeing people wining money out of casinos for obvious reasons: they are evil in disguised.
But I'd like to share with you my little experience. I joined this forum a year ago and bought the S40 membership as soon as it was released. I went through the learning curve as well as witnessing all the modifications by Sir Ellis in an attempt to fine tune it. I must say he's definitely an intelligent guru and extremely patient towards his fellow members be it experts or beginners. I felt the money was well spent based solely on this fact. At least there's someone to comfort me on those bad days right... haha.
So how did I do? Not very well I must admit. I don't blame Ellis and BTC though, despite my efforts in practicing table selection, OR count, SAP charts, lose limits and personal experiences from Ellis (such as morning new card preps and the history of previous shoes), the trend in RWS is simply too unpredictable. It fluctuates so often one simply loses the confidence to continue. You'd be extremely lucky to find a shoe that presents consistent bias. Perhaps S40 isn't really RWS-friendly. I did ask for help via the posts in private forum, although fellow members were kind enough to cheer me up which I was grateful, most of the answers and advises I received were simply to "look for a biased shoe". I felt they had missed my points. I distant myself from this forum 2 months later in disappointment. It wasn't until recently I revisited this once familiar forum from an email informing me the latest creation from Ellis, the NOR.
The shoes you selected were extremely rare, witchygal. In fact, they are so rare it'd attract large crowd in no time, and basic chop methods could easily beat it. I too had those lucky days and they are indeed some of my most glorious moment. As time goes on, you'd notice majority of the shoes are in fact not so favorable. As Ellis has always said, don't be carried away by these successful days for you'd soon find yourself in predicament if discipline is not exercised.
Perhaps we should play together and exchange our views.
As for NOR, I suspect it would be too different from S40 and that's the reason I'm still observing. After all, I've paid USD230 for S40, I don't think it's worth to pay another USD600 for a similar approach.
Hi fluppocinonys,
Great to know another Singaporean is here in the forum. I am trying to gather BTC players in asia to meet up for networking so as to improve on our game.
I have been able to find many choppy shoes at RWS in the past week. S40 works pretty well for some of the shoes. You are correct. Some beautiful shoes attract a large crowd in no time and i couldn't even squeeze in to bet not to mention to get a seat. However there are still quite ok shoes available. Trends in a shoe will change but we try to get out before falling into the trap.
I also learned from my mistakes and hope to improve on my next game.
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If I copied your shoe right, at least as I posted the shoe, there are 6 Banks starting at play 59, right?
Don't let the column change fool you.
OH YES!!! You are right! I'm fooled by the separate columns! Gotta be more observant hee hee. =)
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OK, here are my plays starting at play 2:
p1,b1,b2,p1,b1,b2,p1,p2,b1,b2,p1,b1,p1,b1,b2,p1,p2,b1,b2 = +12
p1,b1,p1,p2,p3,b4,p1,b1,b2,p1,b1,p1,b1,p1,p2,b1,p1,p2,b3,b1 = +19
b2,p1,b1,b2,p3,p1,p2,b1,b2,b3,p1,b1,b2,p1,p2,p3,b4,p1,b1,p1 = +18
p2,b3,b1,p1,p2,b1 = +22
OK, check where you differed and we will discuss those plays and post the shoe.
The actual shoe again was:
B 1212221112221
P 15211112141
B 132312512
B 411 = 66 plays
Can somebody please post it for us?
BTW, note that we got through the 6 in a row just fine:
Our score on the play before the 6 was +18
Our score on the play after the 6 was +21
There are no 6 in a row Ellis.
However i am able to get the same answer as you and i can understand the way you bet. I will practice on my other shoes.
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Here is another related thought: Whenever you stay in the same Mode regardless of the shoe, you are playing purely mechanical and purely mechanical merely breaks even in the long run.
P.S. I hear you've been talking to some of my friends over there. Good!
Yes Ellis i have! We are trying to network among Asia BTC members so as to help each other improve at the game.
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Yes! and an excellent question. This came up before with F. What if the shoe goes 232323 on the weak side. We have 3 options: 1.) Quit 2.) Play our modes backwards: Go to 2 when it says 3 and 3 when it says 2 or 3.) Stick to one Mode as you did. I hate it when that happens.
But here is another way to look at it: No matter how clever we think we are there is always the shoe from hell that does the exact opposite of all our clever thinking. That is what our -8 stop loss is for and always remember: Nothing says we MUST go all the way to - 8.
Yes Ellis that was what i've noticed in some choppy shoes. The modes are not consistent at all. That was why i lost my chips. I know how to handle it next time after your explanation. Thank you very much! =)
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Shoe #1
B113121241112
B1211211111111131
B6153212
B211312112
Shoe #2
P14121313121
B61612211
B251116121
P21216312
Shoe #3
P3112161122
P61411115
P1513523
P112125
I dont understand that ???
This is the way we write out the score
Shoe #1
B113121231112 (Banker is the first result of the play so 113121231112 is BPBBBPBBPBBPPPBPBPP)
We also write each line with 20 hands per line for easy recording.
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Hi guys, im kinda new here. I got like 2 years of experience in BAC I did a couple of trips to las vegas and for now I used to play at the Montreal Casino. maybe a trip to vegas soon.
first of all I would like to know what some abbreviation because I got some difficulty to understand.
thanks
-NOR ( I know NOR is a strategy but what mean the letter N O and R ? )
- +9
- -8 stop loss
- S40
-choppy shoes
- OBT neutral shoe
- 4's or 5's straight
thanks
Hi CasinoBankrupt,
Let me explain the abbreviations here
NOR - Stands for Neutral, Opposite, Repeats
+9 - means you are up by 9 units
-8 - means our cut loss is maximum 8 units ( never lose beyond that )
S40 - name of one of the system in NOR
Choppy shoe - alternate example BPBPBPBP This is call choppy shoe
OTB4L - Opposite before Time Last
4's or 5's straight - means 4 in a row or 5 in a row (BBBB PPPPP)
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OK, your shoe looks like this:
B 1212221112221
P 15211112141
B 132312512
B 411 = 66 plays
First, there are so many single 1's and 2s at the beginning I would also be keeping OTB4L in mind but the 5ZZ starting at play 10 would dissolve that thought. S40 it is.
So, starting at play 2 we start S40 with a 123 4 prog in Mode 3.
Why do we start in Mode 3? Why not the less treacherous Mode 2?
Because Mode 3 beats all 1's, 2s and 3s for sure which is 87% of all events. Mode 2 beats 75% of all events.
At the bottom of the first column (play 20) we find ourselves at +12 W/O ever betting more that 2. We could quit right there with a huge player advantage. 46%!
But let's say we are young and foolish and since we hit +10 already in the first column we keep on trucking. Ha, but also because I can't teach you anything if we quit in the first col.
So OK, here we are in Mode 3 and we get to play 25 where we make our first 3 bet and lose it.
OK, that losing 3 bet, by my rules above puts us in MODE 2 right then and there even though we win our 4 bet OTR at play26.
Now, since we were in Mode 3, We only stay OTR for ONE bet and therefore win our 1 bet at play 27. But now we are in Mode 2 so now we win our OTR 3 bet at play 39 (note I stayed OTR and lost my 1 bet so I go right back to opposites with a ONE bet)so we STAY in Mode 2 which causes us to lose our 3 bet at play 45 so we are now back in Mode 3 which causes us to win our 3 bet at play 50 So we stay Mode 3 which causes us to to lose our 3 bet at play 56 putting us in Mode 2. So we win our 3,1 OTR bets at plays 62 and 63 and finish the shoe with +22 at play 66.
Now, draw this shoe out and play it yourselves as I did so you can see for yourselves just how simple it was. You will very seldom see a shoe with as many Mode changes as this shoe had yet we came through it with flying colors. Such is the power of NOR.
If someone who came up with the same score I did wants to post this shoe, please do so and thanks in advance. Now I think we have Mode down to the same simplicity as the rest of NOR. Any questions?
Correct! But nevertheless there is no way for you to know that before hand. You are better off going by the latest information as I did. This particular shoe was exceptional because it had so many Mode changes and staying in one Mode would work well in THIS shoe. But most shoes have only one or two mode changes if any at all and latest information is best. Plus, it's simple. Sometimes you win no matter which Mode you are in like 5 in a rows. But I won against every run in the shoe except the 3 in a row ending at play 44 and you also lost that one. You will lose on every 3 in a row. This shoe only had two but what if it had 9???I understand why after you explained it. So once we lose on one mode, we will change to the other mode automatically correct? Are there any cases whereby the modes change back again? (example mode 3 we lost, change to mode 2 and lost again)
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OK, your shoe looks like this:
B 1212221112221
P 15211112141
B 132312512
B 411 = 66 plays
First, there are so many single 1's and 2s at the beginning I would also be keeping OTB4L in mind but the 5ZZ starting at play 10 would dissolve that thought. S40 it is.
So, starting at play 2 we start S40 with a 123 4 prog in Mode 3.
Why do we start in Mode 3? Why not the less treacherous Mode 2?
Because Mode 3 beats all 1's, 2s and 3s for sure which is 87% of all events. Mode 2 beats 75% of all events.
At the bottom of the first column (play 20) we find ourselves at +12 W/O ever betting more that 2. We could quit right there with a huge player advantage. 46%!
But let's say we are young and foolish and since we hit +10 already in the first column we keep on trucking. Ha, but also because I can't teach you anything if we quit in the first col.
So OK, here we are in Mode 3 and we get to play 25 where we make our first 3 bet and lose it.
OK, that losing 3 bet, by my rules above puts us in MODE 2 right then and there even though we win our 4 bet OTR at play26.
Now, since we were in Mode 3, We only stay OTR for ONE bet and therefore win our 1 bet at play 27. But now we are in Mode 2 so now we win our OTR 3 bet at play 39 (note I stayed OTR and lost my 1 bet so I go right back to opposites with a ONE bet)so we STAY in Mode 2 which causes us to lose our 3 bet at play 45 so we are now back in Mode 3 which causes us to win our 3 bet at play 50 So we stay Mode 3 which causes us to to lose our 3 bet at play 56 putting us in Mode 2. So we win our 3,1 OTR bets at plays 62 and 63 and finish the shoe with +22 at play 66.
Now, draw this shoe out and play it yourselves as I did so you can see for yourselves just how simple it was. You will very seldom see a shoe with as many Mode changes as this shoe had yet we came through it with flying colors. Such is the power of NOR.
If someone who came up with the same score I did wants to post this shoe, please do so and thanks in advance. Now I think we have Mode down to the same simplicity as the rest of NOR. Any questions?
Ellis thank you for this step by step explanation. I want to ask why do you bet 4 units on hand 47 and placed 1 on hand 57 instead?
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Thank you Ellis for the reply. You are right! The shoe had already gone 20 plays before i got there. So upon seeing such beautiful shoe, i jumped in but encountered the 3's and 4's after few hands and i made mistakes by the modes.
Now that you've explained, i know how to bet next time. However i have replayed the shoe again and if i choose mode 2, i will win most of the 3rd bet (3 units) and not mode 3.
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This is a little too technical for the public forum so I'll move this question over to the Private Forum and address it there. Also, the public should be aware that some of the play here, while mostly good, contains some important technical errors that I am addressing in the private forum. I say this for the sake of public members who may be attempting to copy the play presented here to the public. If you are going to learn this, learn it right. Winning Baccarat is very elusive and you must know exactly what you are doing and why. That is only taught in the private forum. But the good news here is that here is two private members that both won back their private forum membership tuition their first day out. We charge exactly what the average Baccarat player loses per day world wide and no more.
Ellis you've mistaken. I posted my questions in the private forum NOT public. =)
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well done Core... congratulations!!!
thanks to both you and witchygal for sharing your Trip Reports.
one question for both... are you guys using U1D2M2 prog. in some part of the shoes?
Hi Danicito,
I use prog 1234. To me it is easier and stress free. U1D2M2 may be a better betting system for more winnings. I will try it on my next trip.
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Hello witchgal,
Let me play your cards using my version.
Shoe 1. I will start play at hand 13 when at hand 12 shows OR 3. I played with 12345 progression and u1d2m2. At hand 22 i scored 9 points. Now there was 5 in a row. At hand 26, i won the fourth bet and my score was 7. At hand 29 i hit my target +10 and get out.
Shoe 2 is an easy s40 system. I think u jumped too late. Pls remember pattern changes. Be cautious. I will jump at play 5 and stop at play 15 with +10
I dont jump in if the OR count is too high or in other words too late.
Once again this is my version
Hope it helps
Thank you Core for sharing your version. However I only join the table when I walk around and chance upon potential bias shoes. After calculating OR and SAP then I join. So if you play from the beginning it will be different. If you start the hand same as me how will you play?
For the second shoe maybe you are right I missed the good part and started with the more difficult ones. But I didn't know it will appear like that since OR is so high! I must learn to conquer those 3's and 4's.
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Another question from me.
I understand that OTB4L is betting opposite time before last win. However when we are applying it on the tables, how do we bet after losing prog 1?
Example, it is BP so we will bet P right? But it turn out B so we lost the 1st unit.
Then it is now BPB do we bet OTB4L for B or continue to place 2 units on P following first bet? i am confuse here.
If it opens BPBP then we lost again cos this is due to multiples of 1's and 2 units are gone again.
I have seen and copied down shoes with 2's and 3's but suddenly multiple 1's came out and as i play them on paper, i lost.
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Thx ellis
Day 2
1. Tough shoe. Chop streaky chop streaky. [+ rm 1000 ]
I switched twice here. S40 - f2 - s40. It was a tough shoe but i managed to find a way out and produced some profit. Ellis, is it okay to switch twice??
2. Neutral shoes because the or count was hovering between -2 and 2. First i use f2 and switched to otbl. Bur i got the wrong perception. I thought otbl was follow the time before last. What an idiot. but produced some profit here. [+500]. i was supposed can win more.
3. Neutral to streaky. I used otbl and switched to f2. [+1000]
4. Chop. [+800]
5. Chop [+1000]
6. Neutral. I used otbl but once again i got the wrong perception. It supposed to be opposite time before last. I lose 3500 here. I hit the stop loss but didnt get up. Lack of dicipline. Idiot. After i lose, i was so pissed off. I want to make 1 bet of 3500 but i remember if i want to become a pro, that is not the way. It is a suicidal. So i decided to take a break and dinner and play as usual after dinner.
7. Streak [+2000]
8. Streak [ +1300]
Summary
Total shoes played 8
Bought in 2k
Winning 4500
Progression 12345
System selection s40, otbl, f2.
I made my day today and learn something
1. Dicipline. It costs me 3500
2. The more i play and practice, the more skillable iam. I can perform or, system selection with just seeing the toteboard. Ellis is right.
Well, nor is a very powerful system. Pls notice i am suppose to win all shoes. I suppose to win 7k. But the important thing is i learn my lesson today and i remember what ellis said. Rome wasnt built in a day.
It is so great when i walk in back to my room and know i make the day and walk as a damn fu-king winner. Oops, pardon my language. Iam so excite because with nor i made around 8k in just 2 days with only 1500 bought in in the 1st day.
Will be back tomorrow.
Cheers,
CORE
Still learning NOR
Hi Core,
I think you really product fast results! Congratulations! I think we can share this thread and post our experiences with the tables but since this is in public forum, we may not want to write too much about how to play the systems. I love to read your trip reports too!
Those who are interested and serious about the game should join the private forum. Anyway to get back the membership fees is easily achievable since both of us has done it! (A pat on the back for us)
I will post some questions in the private forum and hope you can add your share of how you play. 8k in 2 days is awesome! Thank you.
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I need a little help on how to place my bets after losing 3 times with prog 123.
As you know, when we lost 2 times with S40, the run is already 3 in a row. I always win the 1st circle but lost to 2nd and 3rd circle (so that will be prog 12 already) so if i make 3 the LC, does it mean that 3 circles already define that i should bet my 3rd hand on OTR?
Another problem is when i choose to stay mode 3 (lost 3 times) before going OTR, the run is already 4 circles and i have lost 6 units with 123 prog. Then i go OTR with 4 units and lost since the run stops at 4. I am confused that whether should i stay on the same side or go OTR with the 4 units?
Even when i choose a really bias shoe, i encounter the problem with mode 3. But i can't possibly choose mode 2 as there are no indications in the shoe.
Live shoe played yesterday:
B 121222111222115211
I saw the above and started playing. Does the 5 indicated anything?
Then came the following:
B 112141132312
B 51611
I was in +5 but since i hit the 4 i started to lose and ended up with a -9!!!!???!!! WTH!
Another beautiful shoe i found
P 1111112121111122
I jumped in after seeing the above
Then came the horror
P 13241111413
B 131172131
P 1111232121
I cannot understand why i score a -6 for this shoe??? The problem is i keep losing to the prog 123 on the wrong side and i did not bet the 4units or go OTR as my confidence was affected. When i did win on the ZZ 1's and 2's, i was only getting back my losses.
These 2 shoes really affected me yesterday. However i did win a +14 and +20 in 2 other shoes so overall still a win. However i want to learn how to overcome the 3 losses part and how to bet after prog 123? It seems tricky as the mode changes in the shoe.
Sometimes i win at 123 but sometimes lost and i am not sure how to bet the 4 units and stopped betting. When i start i always go back to 1 unit again and that's why i lose the shoe. What i mean is the mode changes in one single shoe and confused me.
Can anyone please enlighten me?
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Wow Core you did much better than me! Congrats on your win too! Let's learn together and become consistent winners!
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Thank you Danicito!
I will continue to study hard. =)
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Thank you MVSeahog for your encouragement and well wishes. Come to Singapore with Zebra! =)
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Excellent work Witchy. Everything right by the book. BTW, almost nobody goes to the 234 or 345 on their first day. Ha, some don't do it their first year.
I think the most important point your shoes demonstrate is that the more biased a shoe is, the more likely it will continue to follow that bias. You saw first hand the value of taking the time to find the most biased table. You would be amazed at how few players actually do this. Your shoes are decidedly outside the random envelope. But players ignore this huge advantage. No shuffle is perfect, neither by hand nor by machine.
It is very hard for outsiders to believe that members could win back their entire tuition their first day out but this happens very frequently.
Oh and happy birthday!
Now back to the business at hand:
The most common mistake members make at this point is over confidence. Don't even think about going there. Always keep it first in your mind. The casinos pretend to be nice to you but they are your enemy. They are out to beat you. Never let your guard down!
Thank you Dr. Ellis!
Yes i'm following your teachings strictly and making sure i double check everything before starting to play.
I will remember what you say and continue to learn and gain more experience.
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Congatulations Witchy
Wow - what amazing shoes! I'm booking a flight to Singapore.
First shoe was 29-26-8-4 and the second was 18-20-0 12.
Are they always like that?
Paul
Lol Thank you Paul i guess i was lucky to find these 2 shoes tonight! I was lurking around the tables like a hawk hahahah!
I saw some streaky shoes too but did not have the confidence to play them. The tables were very crowded and they turned out weird at the end.
Let me know if you are coming to Singapore! I would really be glad to play host and we'll go play together!
As it's my first time playing NOR, i am still not too sure how to spot a really bias table (those requiring OTB4L or F system) S40 is easy to find. I took some time to count the OR and SAP as well. People looked at me with puzzled faces.
For the 2 shoes played tonite, i was the only one recording the scores at the tables, the pitboss even asked me what kind of "secret weapon" am i using as my chips were going up! One guy sitting beside me asked if he could look at my scoresheet but he could not understand it. He asked why am i charting it vertically?? Lol!
How to bet after 3 losses?
in BeatTheCasino.com Q and A Baccarat and Blackjack
Posted
Yes Ellis i will learn how to identify the stronger bias tables. It is easy to spot them just by glancing at the tote boards. Maybe i hesitate too much sometimes as i always make sure i count OR and SAP before jumping in.
That is why players in Asia say the shoes are basically trendless or a mixture in both casinos in Singapore.