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NOR TIPS from Ellis


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1.) We prefer Mode 2 over Mode 3:

Whenever we find ourselves in a shoe that is pointing to two systems about equally but one is Mode 2 and the other Mode 3, we want to pick the Mode 2 system for two reasons:

A.) Mode 2 tends to keep our bets lower.

B.) Mode 2 affords us the opportunity to advance our progs to 234/345 while Mode 3 really doesn't. In Mode 3 we are better off sticking to the 123 4 because Mode 3 needs a 4th bet while Mode 2 doesn't.

2.) Should we ever play a Mode 1?

It is quite rare but sometimes we get shoes where we are better off to go OTR after 1 losing bet rather than 2 or 3.

These would be:

A.) S40 shoes totally lacking in single 1's and 2s We call these TB4L shoes

B.) OTB4L shoes totally lacking in straight 3s and double 1's. (All runs are going 4 or more)

C.) F shoes composed solely of straight runs of 2 or more following straight runs while lacking in 1's.

BTW, when we get these TB4L shoes they can be very high scoring when played Mode 1.

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Gee Ellis, I didn't realize there was a mode , as a matter of fact I do recall now talking to you 4 years ago about implementing modes going back to Twister.

I'm already tweaking the NOR with additional OR count from zero at start of first play and resetting back to +/- 3 after +/- 6 on my secondary OR count and currently find tracking to be a bit of a chore as it is.

My target is 10 units or greater per shoe without falling below 10 using a progression bet therefore I stop if the next net risks the 10 unit threshold after achieving 11 unit win or greater. My usual exit point is at range of 33 - 38 th hand with start point range of 6 - 10 th hand from top of the shoe with avg 23% PA

So far i am not tracking mode count but progress up to 4 units and if a 4 unit bet is won (seems to happen a lot when placed but rarely place a 4 unit bet), I go back to 2 units and progress to 234 5 but have not needed to go to 5 units as of yet in my testing.

So far this is working and I feel confident enough to tackle it in live play but still testing for now to confirm this approach.

I have found that your -8 units walk rule is valid as it is an indication of a bad shoe but does take discipline at live play to do.

I love the NOR approach and only tweaking it to calm volatility from unit swings by taking into account of primary and secondary OR counts along with SAP count to make decisions how to play next bet. I look at ut this way, primary OR count indicates long term bias and Secondary OR count indicates short term bias swings. I trade stocks as well and it is like using a shorter term moving average with longer term average to project up or down direction of price.

If I find that SAP is all even and I am not getting a strong signal from both OR counts, I pass on next bet an reset secondary OR count back to zero at next betting point.

If someone else out there could try this I would appreciate any feedback to their success or failure to validate this strategy or any thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks,

CC

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Hi Ellis- In the thread "How to bet after 3 losses?" 11-06-2011 08:01AM about half way down it states "Watch my lips. There are only two modes. We start in Mode 3 unless table history says otherwise." I have been trying to play this way with various results but I am learning. Now I see "We prefer Mode 2 over Mode 3." I see the reasoning here also. How do I start out playing a new shoe now? I am a bit confused but trying to get this. Thanks. Also, what is Mode 1? I must have missed this one along the way. Thanks again.

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Gee Ellis, I didn't realize there was a mode , as a matter of fact I do recall now talking to you 4 years ago about implementing modes going back to Twister.

I'm already tweaking the NOR with additional OR count from zero at start of first play and resetting back to +/- 3 after +/- 6 on my secondary OR count and currently find tracking to be a bit of a chore as it is.

My target is 10 units or greater per shoe without falling below 10 using a progression bet therefore I stop if the next net risks the 10 unit threshold after achieving 11 unit win or greater. My usual exit point is at range of 33 - 38 th hand with start point range of 6 - 10 th hand from top of the shoe with avg 23% PA

So far i am not tracking mode count but progress up to 4 units and if a 4 unit bet is won (seems to happen a lot when placed but rarely place a 4 unit bet), I go back to 2 units and progress to 234 5 but have not needed to go to 5 units as of yet in my testing.

So far this is working and I feel confident enough to tackle it in live play but still testing for now to confirm this approach.

I have found that your -8 units walk rule is valid as it is an indication of a bad shoe but does take discipline at live play to do.

I love the NOR approach and only tweaking it to calm volatility from unit swings by taking into account of primary and secondary OR counts along with SAP count to make decisions how to play next bet. I look at ut this way, primary OR count indicates long term bias and Secondary OR count indicates short term bias swings. I trade stocks as well and it is like using a shorter term moving average with longer term average to project up or down direction of price.

If I find that SAP is all even and I am not getting a strong signal from both OR counts, I pass on next bet an reset secondary OR count back to zero at next betting point.

If someone else out there could try this I would appreciate any feedback to their success or failure to validate this strategy or any thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks,

CC

No Modes? Did you mean to say that? Or did you mean to say you "didn't realize there was a Mode 1"? You have the Dec, NOR Manual, right?

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Hi Ellis- In the thread "How to bet after 3 losses?" 11-06-2011 08:01AM about half way down it states "Watch my lips. There are only two modes. We start in Mode 3 unless table history says otherwise." I have been trying to play this way with various results but I am learning. Now I see "We prefer Mode 2 over Mode 3." I see the reasoning here also. How do I start out playing a new shoe now? I am a bit confused but trying to get this. Thanks. Also, what is Mode 1? I must have missed this one along the way. Thanks again.

cdf

There is no Mode 1 as far as your Manual is concerned. This is because Mode 1 (going OTR after 1 losing bet) would be the same as TB4L and TB4L loses to the TT's (BB PP BB PP)

However S40 Mode 1 would do slightly better than F in a shoe type consisting solely of straight and ZZ runs with no 2s. But F does almost as well AND F3 handles the TT's while OTB4L loses every bet in the TT's with no escape route.

We changed from always starting in Mode 3 to always starting in Mode 2. We prefer Mode 2 because it keeps our bets lower while giving us the opportunity to advance our prog to the 234/345.

I mention Mode 1 only in a tips reference if you happen to get the above shoe type. But we very seldom get that shoe type because the casinos got rid of it through shuffle technology. It was their No. 1 loser and used to be the most common shoe type produced by the universally standard Bac shuffle used back in the late'80s - early '90s. That was back when we saw 20+ in a row both straight and ZZ on a daily basis.

By getting rid of that shoe type casinos, world wide, increased their Bac profits from 3% to 25% of drop.

Anyone who thinks shuffles randomize cards just hasn't been around the game long enough.

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Guess I missed that mode 1 but during development of twister I do recall that you and came to realize that at that time there needed to be two different type of play to bring us in sync with the shoe but that was when twister was a mechanical system. I much prefer NOR with counts and allows my mind to be somewhat creative to interpret the shoe therefore adjusting the decision instead of diving into a losing streak just because a mech system tells you to bet a certain way.

Yah I went to the casino last night on way home enough time to play one shoe, didn't get to place my first bet til hand 29 as result of getting my counts updated and wait to get a spot at the table. It was a bit tough at start but managed to squeeze out 4 units by hand 59 with 11.87% PA so I picked up and cashed out made it home without the wife knowing. He He He ....

Thanks to NOR I have the confidence to pull off a short session.

CC

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Guess I missed that mode 1 but during development of twister I do recall that you and came to realize that at that time there needed to be two different type of play to bring us in sync with the shoe but that was when twister was a mechanical system. I much prefer NOR with counts and allows my mind to be somewhat creative to interpret the shoe therefore adjusting the decision instead of diving into a losing streak just because a mech system tells you to bet a certain way.

Yah I went to the casino last night on way home enough time to play one shoe, didn't get to place my first bet til hand 29 as result of getting my counts updated and wait to get a spot at the table. It was a bit tough at start but managed to squeeze out 4 units by hand 59 with 11.87% PA so I picked up and cashed out made it home without the wife knowing. He He He ....

Thanks to NOR I have the confidence to pull off a short session.

CC

Ha, I had the opposite problem when my wife was alive. She would kick me out of the house to go to the casino. Of course I always gave her half my winnings.

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Ellis so do you mean that when we play mode 2 we should play the same mode for the whole shoe? Same for mode 3?

Previously we were taught to start mode 3 and if it lose, we would change to mode 2 next. So in 1 shoe, we would be changing modes a few times.

Either which, i feel that it is still 50/50 as there is no confirmation that modes can win consistently in a shoe.

Is it beneficial if we play 1 mode for the entire shoe?

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Ellis regarding the OTR I am seeing an advantage if we separate the P runs( streaky or ZZ) from the B runs ( I think Andrea mentioned that somewhere before). What I mean is to take the decision to go ORT based on the previous P runs if it calls for P bet placement( same for the B case) and not from the B run if it happens to be the last one. What do you think?

Thanks

kkriats

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Ellis so do you mean that when we play mode 2 we should play the same mode for the whole shoe? Same for mode 3?

Previously we were taught to start mode 3 and if it lose, we would change to mode 2 next. So in 1 shoe, we would be changing modes a few times.

Either which, i feel that it is still 50/50 as there is no confirmation that modes can win consistently in a shoe.

Is it beneficial if we play 1 mode for the entire shoe?

No, no, not at all. You start in Mode 2 if Mode hasn't been established yet (it often has already been established). But then you switch modes according to the 3rd bet rule. The manual is correct. You yourself pointed out that we are better off to start in Mode 2 because it keeps our max bet at only 3.

Forget I mentioned Mode 1. It only has a slight advantage over F in TB4L shoes only and those are extremely rare any more. All casinos know how to avoid them. I'm sorry I ever mentioned Mode 1. Stick to the manual.

However, per your manual , IF the 3rd bet rule keeps putting you in the wrong mode, then and only then, your best strategy is to stay in Mode 2 full time and play a 12345 up as you lose progression on your initial OTR bets only. A prog within a prog. If you get up to a 4 or 5 bet, you can go down 2 instead of always back to 1 but you still stay OTR for 2 bets when you win the first OTR bet because you are in Mode 2.

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Tip - Exploiting with NOR.

Since at least one player is playing NOR with an U1D1 prog.

I have been doing some research on the best way to Exploit with NOR and I can affirm that the best way to Exploit with NOR is to simply advance your progs to the 234 and 345 when faced with a really good shoe. In other words stick to your manual.

First I designed a perfect OTB4L column:

P11223311231

First the starting 1,1 already puts you in Mode 3 against ZZ runs and the question of Mode against straight runs never comes up because there are no 4+s which is most often the case in first columns.

Our OR count returns to 0 4 times and never exceeds +2 or -1 making this column perfect OTB4L

The column is very normal with nothing exceptional. 1's and 2s are running normal while 3s are high and 4+s are low. Very common.

If you play OTB4L 123 full out starting at play 3 you'll see that You make +11 at play 20 with a highest bet of a single 3 and a PA of 44%.

If you exploit with U1D1 you'll see that only one play changes, play 17 becomes a 2 bet rather than a 1 bet and you score +12. Your PA goes to 46%. Big whip!

Now if you know a thing or 2 about exploiting and you net bet Opposites vs Repeats with a 1234 prog U1D1 and start at play 2 because you can do that with net betting your score flys up to +15 while your total units bet remains the same so your PA flys up to 60%.

What could possibly ever beat that?

Well your current manual can beat it very soundly while staying very simple.

Again, start at play 3. Advance your prog to 234 at play 5. Then advance to the 345 at play 11 per your manual.

Your score goes to +19 at play 20 with a 37% PA.

NOTHING can beat that and all you did is follow your manual.

I rest my case!

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