uneek

Your O/R is right at 0 and been around there for the past few hands. Best bet is OT so I'd bet B

If you lose on a 1,2 progression on a high/low count, when is the best time to resume it again? After a paper win? WW? WLW?

Jaybird, Have you tried playing live yet?

I don't know exactly it depends on the shoe as well. It happens quite often though if the two are in conflict (High and Low). The high and low tend to tie on multiple occasions (i.e. 2/high or 2/low or 1/high/1low). You have to also be able to distinguish which are on the rise when they tie (the one you should jump on) and also I use the lower count when two spreads tie for the low. Sometimes the low spread becomes the new high count in which it'll be on conflict with itself (usually is at 3 or 4 in count). I just wait for it to become 5 so I can bet it as the high or wait for a new count to overtake it then I reevaluate my spreads. By then it's usually a strong side shoe where you're just betting the high side by then (sometimes you'll have a low count in one of your 4 counts but it's not the lowest spread in that situation)

Ellis, So far my testing has shown positive results in just using a 1,2 progression and using the rules you provided (start betting on the high when it hits 3 and then the low spread with count dictating whether to bet opposites or going moving toward 0). I assumed that's how you wanted it to be played using both the high and the low when they're in conjunction with each other and when they're not to not bet at all or if the low spread is 5 or over to just stick to the high.

Agreed. If things are going right then the flat bet at 2 is optimum. Although when using a 1,2 does leave you some extra room to get out of the hole if you're down early. Both I'd use a -6.

Double post. Ignore

Were you playing with a straight 123 progression or 1,2? I'm still debating on whether flat betting at 2 or a 123 progression is more efficient. Ellis? I can see the advantages and disadvantages to both but just can't wrap my head on what's more consistent and efficient.

I believe it means that when starting a shoe when the 1st count hits a +/-3 then you may start betting on the high side. I would think for starting on the low we would at least wait till hand 7 and then we go by the lowest spread for the low. If the low spread you're betting on is between +/- 2 then you bet opposite the last decision. If the low spread is +/- 3 or 4 then you bet that it'll go down toward 0. I hope this makes sense.

How about when two spreads tie for lowest? Which do we go with? Also I've noticed during some testing that the lowest spread will become the high count. So I'm thinking we would just disqualify it as the low once it goes to 5 or more or don't bet it until a new high count is established since the low and high will be in conflict

Jaybird, I appreciate your posting of your rules and so far it's the most consistent I've seen 4D being played so far. Keep us informed on any progress. My main concern now is it's shoe win rate. How's that coming along? I've done some testing of my own and my win rate is a little lower than yours (probably in the 70's) and most of my shoes weren't complete so I can't consider them for the full test. Once again good work and keep it coming! If I see anything that I can help improve on I'll definitely post it.

What I personally would have done Jaybird in your tough shoe is skip that first zigzag from plays 3-7 since it's just another run but in chop form. Then I would've waited for the run to end at play 8 and wait 4 new hands after that. Since a new streak developed I would've skipped that as well and waited another 4 after it ended at play 12. So starting at play 17 at 1,1 and hitting a high of +5 at play 32 with ending at a +4 at play 34.

I understand what you're doing now. Thanks for the clarification. Another question for you regarding runs. If you run into another zigzag/straight run that's not in the beginning but mid shoe, do you wait until the run ends as you would if it were to occur in the beginning? Or would you play it normally with the lowest spread until you lose a 1,4 or the spread hits 5? Lastly, what's your shoe win rate so far in your testing?

jaybird, Here's my question. 3. When you lose a 1,4 or if the count you're using hits a spread of 5 (keep calculating the spread from the last starting point which was 8 hands before you began your 1,1), go on the highest run (it may not be the offending run) for 1 unit. If you win, flat bet the run until you lose. For this is it just for the last 8 hands (running spread count) or total hands in the shoe so far? You mention spread and disparity count but I'm having a hard time distinguishing the two in your rules. Overall spread we know is the difference between the two counts and then the actual count is what is happening currently. Can you please be a little more specific cause it's a little confusing seeing that you interchange the two terms in your rules. Thanks.

Ellis, What's the recommended stop loss for the 1,2 and prog within a prog?

Ellis, I've been putting the rules that you posted per post #19 and I can say that this might be the best concrete rules up to date. Are we still implementing a -8 as a stop loss? The stop win should for sure be a +5 capture at +4 but probing for more definitely helps.

Can anyone play this shoe and tell me how you did? Thanks, Tom b121113112214 b231222233 b251112111221

Hey Frank777 I moved your question about Mode2 and Mode 3 here in this thread for everyone to see and answer. " Hi Ellis, Regarding Modes. To play mode 2 or 3 do you decide which mode by the LC ? If not what decides which mode to play ? In 123 betting system after a winning bet do you just bet a 1 unit or do you bet a 1,2,1,2,1,2, as the old 1-5 U1D2M2 ? Frank77

Hi Ellis need your help. I know how to play Sys 40 but i do not know what to do with the OTR part. When do you go Otr till you lose 1? WHen do you bet 1 Otr then go back to opps? When do you bet 2 Otr then go back to opps? Thanks Tom

Hi Everyone I have been out of the loop for some time now, so can anyone tell me what mode1 and mode 2 is? Thanks Tom

Can anyone tell me how to do the O/R count?> thanks tom

I was playing one shoe and it ended at play 47 WTF!!! okay so I go to the 10 dollar table and it ended early almost as the same as the other table I was on. Starting to Piss me off. If anyone else plays on Bet Phoenix and encounters this please give Bet Phoenix a call. Just like Nizmo said "If we get more players to call about this They will start noticing and hopefully they will change" Thanks Tom w/o the m - uneek

Dazza is it possible for you to post those 3 shoes? Tom

lets keep this going if possible Thanks Tom

HAPPY EASTER TO EVERYONE!!! Tom