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More NOR detailed training materials coming. Looking for some California Players


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I am hearing that many of you are having good results from the NOR seminar. Many have asked for clarification on some of the more detailed aspects of NOR. I am putting together an advanced training manual that covers the modes, streak, and OTB4L with practice examples that create the various scenario's. This way you can begin to get a better feel for how the system works and with the applied practice, have even more success.

I need some Cali playing partners. I have been spending time at Pechanga, but will be headed to Harrah's Rincon and Morongo next week. It would be great to have a team of players. Let me know if you are in the area. We can meet at the casino.

Keep on winning!!

Steve

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Steve; Are you going to schedule a future all-day Advanced NOR seminar in Las Vegas sometime after the one in LA? Enjoyed the short NOR seminar you gave here last month and the printed material you handed out has been very useful as an addition to the manual. I'd love to attend an all-day Advanced NOR, but can't make it to LA.

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Well 2 phone messages for 2 days no reply, lol. He probably isn't checking because there was little response to this thread at the start maybe? Or God forbid something happened to the guy?

I guess now I would just like to find out if this clinic is still on at all, it looks like I potentially could be the only one there if I sign up so maybe Steve would be kind of flexible with what the clinic would be about based on my experience with NOR?

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Well 2 phone messages for 2 days no reply, lol. He probably isn't checking because there was little response to this thread at the start maybe? Or God forbid something happened to the guy?

I guess now I would just like to find out if this clinic is still on at all, it looks like I potentially could be the only one there if I sign up so maybe Steve would be kind of flexible with what the clinic would be about based on my experience with NOR?

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I'm very happy to hear that Vic. I did poke my head in and answered a couple of questions at Steve's Vegas NOR seminar but I was monitoring Team Play at the same time for several teams playing in the separate table room. The Cresent School is definitely a great place for our seminars. I didn't get to hear much of Steve's seminar but I can tell you this much. The 40 or so attendees were very highly engrossed in the seminar. Steve had everyone's full attention and kept it right to the end. When Steve announced the seminar was over nobody got up. They sat there attentively waiting for more. Now that is the mark of an excellent instructor.

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I had several calls this week with nor members. We had good conversions about nor. I encourage everyone to master the OR and SAP count. That is a key to reading the shoe properly. Also, betting strategies become important too. These will be covered in the seminars. But feel free to email or post questions on the forum. Let's win! Let me know how I can help.

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In October, I'll be doing a full afternoon of more progressive NOR training. I want to be sure I tailor it to your needs. So please email your questions and items you need help with. I will be sure to include them as part of the workshop.

https://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/eventReg?oeidk=a07e6d40ogb69b2537f&oseq=

Edited by Keith Smith
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Hi, Stephen, BTC members,

With regards to your NOR instructions, what have you been suggesting for game starts? For example, I elect not to play until I see at least 4 events - or I see at least 9 hands. Then, if there is some bias from the O/R and SAP profile, I begin to look to apply the best fit NOR strategy. I know Ellis often starts as early as after 2-4 plays - especially if he strongly feels/identified a particular table/shoe bias such as early morning preps, etc.

In this start - the casino uses pre-shuffled boxed 8 dk bacc games. Once from the box, they go thru the routine of cutting in 1/2 decks, applying riffle shuffle, followed by strip shuffle. I have not been able to detect strong biases for pre-shuffled, boxed games. Certainly not anywhere near the consistency that Ellis saw in Tunica with early morning prep using handwashed shuffles.

I am curious - if you were to suggest a NOR start - what guidelines and which NOR strategy would you prefer with the following start? Note there are 4 events passed, and at least 9 plays into this start sequence:

B14131 O/R (-1)

Any other start guidelines/observations from BTC members?

Later - I will post the actual play and shoe from my perspective. Thank you.

Daytrader77459

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Daytrader, I don't think you should be looking for specific shoe start rules. I think you are better off looking at the overall situation. Especially in the US, we are seldom, if ever, playing in the blind. We need to look at everything we know about the game at hand, the situation at hand.

For instance:

Are we playing new cards and what shoe type does the starting card prep usually present at the casino we are playing.

What did that color shoe do last time?

How long have the runs been? (Especially night time play)

What did this tote board show and what are the others showing?

Does this casino seem to favor a certain shoe type at this time of day.

What do the player score cards on the table indicate?

Are we getting to that table mid shoe and what does the tote board indicate so far?

You know, I always study all of these situational factors BEFORE I sit down so that, God forbid, I'm never starting in the blind. This way I can usually start right at play 2.

I usually start only a play or 2 in and never more than 4 plays. I like to start when my single bet covers two different systems so I can keep my options open. But I tend to favor OTB4L if the information at hand doesn't rule it out. And about the only thing that rules it out are ZZ runs. Then I start with S40. And in spite of the fact that it is a little more expensive, I prefer to start with OTB4L-3 simply because it covers more events. For instance in the shoe start you posted, I would very likely already be at +3 and wondering why the other members are still thinking about it.

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Sorry for the late reply. I confess, I have been to the forum many times and overlooked your thread. I am considering doing an advanced NOR seminar in Vegas in early December. NOR Boot camp. And entire day of NOR with a dealer to practice. How is your game going?

STeve

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Hi, Stephen, BTC members,

With regards to your NOR instructions, what have you been suggesting for game starts? For example, I elect not to play until I see at least 4 events - or I see at least 9 hands. Then, if there is some bias from the O/R and SAP profile, I begin to look to apply the best fit NOR strategy. I know Ellis often starts as early as after 2-4 plays - especially if he strongly feels/identified a particular table/shoe bias such as early morning preps, etc.

In this start - the casino uses pre-shuffled boxed 8 dk bacc games. Once from the box, they go thru the routine of cutting in 1/2 decks, applying riffle shuffle, followed by strip shuffle. I have not been able to detect strong biases for pre-shuffled, boxed games. Certainly not anywhere near the consistency that Ellis saw in Tunica with early morning prep using handwashed shuffles.

I am curious - if you were to suggest a NOR start - what guidelines and which NOR strategy would you prefer with the following start? Note there are 4 events passed, and at least 9 plays into this start sequence:

B14131 O/R (-1)

Any other start guidelines/observations from BTC members?

Later - I will post the actual play and shoe from my perspective. Thank you.

Daytrader77459

Daytrader, is your casino introducing new cards every shoe or just the first shoe in the morning? Can you touch the cards?

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Well Daytrader, looks like the forum doesn't know how to answer your question -- or maybe they are all too busy trying BJ. Haha.

So on your shoe start (B14131), i rather like F due to the strong Player side with single Bankers. This also has the look a possibly devloping OTB4L shoe, so I would be ready to switch at first sign of trouble. It is likely I would have tested F betting after the first 3 or 4 players. How did the rest of the shoe play out for you?

Hi, Stephen, BTC members,

With regards to your NOR instructions, what have you been suggesting for game starts? For example, I elect not to play until I see at least 4 events - or I see at least 9 hands. Then, if there is some bias from the O/R and SAP profile, I begin to look to apply the best fit NOR strategy. I know Ellis often starts as early as after 2-4 plays - especially if he strongly feels/identified a particular table/shoe bias such as early morning preps, etc.

In this start - the casino uses pre-shuffled boxed 8 dk bacc games. Once from the box, they go thru the routine of cutting in 1/2 decks, applying riffle shuffle, followed by strip shuffle. I have not been able to detect strong biases for pre-shuffled, boxed games. Certainly not anywhere near the consistency that Ellis saw in Tunica with early morning prep using handwashed shuffles.

I am curious - if you were to suggest a NOR start - what guidelines and which NOR strategy would you prefer with the following start? Note there are 4 events passed, and at least 9 plays into this start sequence:

B14131 O/R (-1)

Any other start guidelines/observations from BTC members?

Later - I will post the actual play and shoe from my perspective. Thank you.

Daytrader77459

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Hi Stephen, I cannot make the NOR seminar on Oct 12 as I will be in Vegas for the weekend. If you are considering a more advanced program, I would be very interested in participating.

Sorry for the late reply. I confess, I have been to the forum many times and overlooked your thread. I am considering doing an advanced NOR seminar in Vegas in early December. NOR Boot camp. And entire day of NOR with a dealer to practice. How is your game going?

STeve

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Hi, Ellis,

Daytrader, is your casino introducing new cards every shoe or just the first shoe in the morning? Can you touch the cards?

We play primarily at the major Strip places - and these allow cards to touched, written on, wrinkled, folded, ripped, and eaten! :-)

Every new shoe comes in a wrapped 8-dk pre-shuffled package. I believe that these pre-packed shoes were originally shuffled and packaged and verified from overseas (Asia).

Many times, several tables would show different biases of OBL vs S40 vs F/SS simultaneously. On occasion, Way2Fast and I have been in high limit pit areas where ALL the tables may be showing strong biased shoes of OBL. Then these I usually pounce on with OBL - focusing on hitting the 2nds most often.

In the shoe start example I posted earlier on this thread - part of the challenge was to see how NOR players would best start - and when - if the tables do not have any strong bias. I know you often emphasize DO NOT PLAY unless we have strong bias recon info.

But - nevertheless - if we lean on the bias of OBL and S40 with the shoe start I showed below - then how and when would you begin betting, and what is your strategy/selection system?

Thank you for your time and input.

Daytrader77459

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Hi, Way2Fast,

Well Daytrader, looks like the forum doesn't know how to answer your question -- or maybe they are all too busy trying BJ. Haha.

So on your shoe start (B14131), i rather like F due to the strong Player side with single Bankers. This also has the look a possibly devloping OTB4L shoe, so I would be ready to switch at first sign of trouble. It is likely I would have tested F betting after the first 3 or 4 players. How did the rest of the shoe play out for you?

Great to hear from you! Hope you are getting in some relaxation time in between your travels!

Well, I agree with you on the bias towards OBL - even if an early 4 in a row suggests possible F/SS bias, we both know how often we are seeing and playing into OBL. At least if not OBL early on, then often OBL quickly becomes the dominant bias thru the shoes.

Plus, in this shoe start example, the oscillating nature of the O/R count suggested an OBL bias although at this point, 1s + 4s > 2s + 3s, from an SAP perspective, it can be argued for TBL or F/SS also.

In any case, I elected to play this shoe out using F/SS since my experience is more with SAP - but I monitored the O/R and 2s, 3s, events on weak side very tightly. When playing out F/SS - once the dominant side is over and the shoe switches to the new side, I have often just exited the shoe and lock up profits at hand. In other words, with F/SS - I have been playing only the dominant side. I have found that F/SS that switched frequently often turned out best to be played using OBL - especially if F/SS with primarily 4s and little or no 5+s. Shoes with many 4s can still be played well using OBL M3.

Way2Fast - I will PM you the shoe as it played out. Also, please PM your sched - definitely will enjoy meeting up and playing and having dinners again soon! BTW - many of my group friends got hit big time as 3 major Strip baccarat high limit pits all threw OBL shoes - and the players could not react to OBL shoe games! How unfortunate - they should have joined BTC and been NOR players.

But - as I've said before - most play for emotional gains/benefits. Only a few select players play to win.

Pls say hello to your "boss" also! Look fwd to see you again soon!

Best regards,

Daytrader77459

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High limit pits throwing out OBL shoes is like a gift from heaven. I'm sorry to hear the "group" got hurt by it, but I trust you managed your way through to some nice profits :) See you soon.

Hi, Way2Fast,

Great to hear from you! Hope you are getting in some relaxation time in between your travels!

Well, I agree with you on the bias towards OBL - even if an early 4 in a row suggests possible F/SS bias, we both know how often we are seeing and playing into OBL. At least if not OBL early on, then often OBL quickly becomes the dominant bias thru the shoes.

Plus, in this shoe start example, the oscillating nature of the O/R count suggested an OBL bias although at this point, 1s + 4s > 2s + 3s, from an SAP perspective, it can be argued for TBL or F/SS also.

In any case, I elected to play this shoe out using F/SS since my experience is more with SAP - but I monitored the O/R and 2s, 3s, events on weak side very tightly. When playing out F/SS - once the dominant side is over and the shoe switches to the new side, I have often just exited the shoe and lock up profits at hand. In other words, with F/SS - I have been playing only the dominant side. I have found that F/SS that switched frequently often turned out best to be played using OBL - especially if F/SS with primarily 4s and little or no 5+s. Shoes with many 4s can still be played well using OBL M3.

Way2Fast - I will PM you the shoe as it played out. Also, please PM your sched - definitely will enjoy meeting up and playing and having dinners again soon! BTW - many of my group friends got hit big time as 3 major Strip baccarat high limit pits all threw OBL shoes - and the players could not react to OBL shoe games! How unfortunate - they should have joined BTC and been NOR players.

But - as I've said before - most play for emotional gains/benefits. Only a few select players play to win.

Pls say hello to your "boss" also! Look fwd to see you again soon!

Best regards,

Daytrader77459

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Way2Fast,

High limit pits throwing out OBL shoes is like a gift from heaven. I'm sorry to hear the "group" got hurt by it, but I trust you managed your way through to some nice profits :) See you soon.

Yes - painful to watch Operation OBL being unleashed to the group. I did manage to continue do well with SAP, NOR, and focused OBL on 2nds and after 2-3 chops betting 2nds. Able to win 4 days, 1 break-even day.

Look fwd to our next "NOR mission".

Daytrader77459

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Ellis, Way2Fast, Stephen,

Played one shoe tonite - buy-in of 30 units playing high stakes. Saw 1st 4 hds being PPPP. Thought, hmmm, F/SS game.

Jumped in, two bets, shoe went P6. Then tie hand. Stopped betting after tie. Then 1 Bank. Waited, then another Bank. Thus:

P62 so far - or PPPPPP BB

Played Bank F2 - Bank went 4 more times, now +6 u for the shoe. Shoe is P66 or PPPPPP BBBBBB. Seeing a 6-6 pattern, elected to wait and see next outcome. Jumped to PP.

Now at P662 - played Player F2 - shoe went P664 - won 2 more bets to +8u, but lost 1 hd to +7u. Exited at +7. Shoe went ragged quickly into an OBL m2/m3 alternating sequence. Players lost all their winnings quickly and more.

I stopped play after about 20 mins of play w +7 u net.

Shows the power of waiting for a strong shoe bias as Ellis repeatedly instructed us for BOTH baccarat and BJ. See my brief BJ play in the BJ thread also.

Went back to hotel room to relax. This week, plenty of play left to attack. Also awaiting my NOR team colleagues like Way2Fast and HawaiiAl to join in our next NOR campaign weekend adventure very soon. Thank you Ellis for SAP, NOR.

Daytrader77459

PS - for newbies and non-NOR baccarat players - TAKE NOTE: NOR does NOT guarantee winning shoes. However, NOR does a fantastic job of "matching" lucky consistent shoe bias with very strong betting application. If unlucky and get a losing shoes we find out quickly and can often get out max (-6u), but much more often exit bad shoes at near break-even to (-2u). However winning shoes - NOR players can easily get +5 to +10 profits quickly. More aggressive NOR players (which I am definitely NOT a part of that group) can get +15u or more in profits.

PSS - Buy NOR, practice, ask questions, attend Ellis & Stephen NOR seminars, play with NOR players. Easy direct "recipe" for baccarat success. Ellis goes after 90% winning shoes! I am not there yet - but able to get in the 70% to 80% win rate! More to learn and improve! Always...

PSSS - Ongoing SAP, NOR baccarat focus: (1) look for and WAIT for strong shoe biases; (2) apply correct SAP/NOR strategy; (3) accumulate profits quickly; (4) look to exit quickly when NOR bias changes - I DO NOT change NOR strategy - I stick to my initial NOR strategy and then just exit/bail out of the shoe once the bias has changed with locked up profits; (5) bankroll mgmt, profit locks!

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