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60 shoes from may 6 vegas trip


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The attached file contains 60 shoes that I played in Vegas at three different casinos, the week of May 6, 2013 for you to practice with.

You should be able to print the scorecard.

The scorecard has an OT count as that is what I use when I play (not OR count)

there are four blank columns so that you could enter whatever count you want including the SAP count.

All the shoes were played on a MIDI table, (touch) vs MINI (no touch) with pre shuffled cards.

It is interesting to note that 20 shoes were obvious OTB shoes and 24 shoes were obvious F shoes,

The remaining 16 shoes were about 50% OTB and 50% F

(sometimes the first half of the shoe would be OTB and the second half be F or the other way around,

and sometimes it will alternate throughout the shoe (witch is the worst situation you could have)

Some of the shoes are only about 40 or fewer hands as I might have gotten out with my stop win or loss,

or the best hooker in the casino was available at that time.

Roulette was my first love and I played it for 30 years and did very well with it up to about 10 years ago

when the casinos starting using the new type of wheel you see today

and it got harder & harder to find a single “0†wheel with out a $100 to $500 min bet (as I will never play on a double“0†wheel).

This changed the way I would play and win, (but that is a whole other story). That is when I started playing Bac.

I also played 20 shoes or sessions on this trip of 40 to 80 spins for each session on Roulette (single “0â€)

BTW I play the high/ low using the same method that I use with Bac.

An extremely interesting observation was made and that is, the ratio of OTB, F and the 50% shoes were almost the same as with Bac.

What makes this so interesting is that the Roulette wheel is probably the best RNG you could ever have.

IMO this tells me that the pre shuffled cards are about as random as the Roulette wheel outcome.

I have about 40 more Roulette shoes from past trips, as soon as I find some time I will compile them in the same format as theses 20 shoes

to prove or disprove this theory further.

I will post the 20 Roulette shoes as soon as I can.

NormA

60 VEGAS SHOES 5:8:13.pdf

Norm A

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Norm! An excellent job of transcribing! Excellent notations! And an excellent contribution to the forum!

New Guys: This is an excellent opportunity to practice system selection:

First look at the whole shoe just as you would study a tote board in the casino. Your score card is a vertical tote board up side down. But the fact that it is up side down makes NO difference in system selection. Some casinos have vertical tote boards, some horizontal, some both, and some none. But all have player score cards you can look at.

First, look at the whole shoe to determine the bast system to play. Then start narrowing it down to the first several plays.

These are all touch games which means new, "factory preshuffled" cards every shoe.

Also recognize that nobody sits there at the factory shuffling cards. Just as a factory puts normal single decks in a prescribed order (boxed card order), they can put 8 decks into any order the casino specifies. And you can bet your bottom dollar that casinos are going to order card orders they deem favorable to the casino. Instead of a common trend throughout a shoe you are more likely to see changing trends more often.

Another difference is that you MAY lose any shoe to shoe consistency (table bias). On the other hand you may get enhanced consistency. For instance our Maccau players say that they get the same shoe type for 2 or 3 days and then it changes to another shoe type for 2 or 3 days catching everyone with their pants down. Each casino is going to use preshuffled cards to what they think is to their best advantage.

60 shoes in one trip! Wow! I used to do that but now I settle for 20. And 60 touch shoes at that! Touch games usually take twice as long to play.

So, are touch games beatable? Yes, as you will soon see. But I think new players should avoid them at least at first until they have developed some skills. Touch games are often harder to beat because prior shoes can be meaningless.

OK, I'll take the first 3 and show you what I would be noting and how I would play them. I'll start all 3 at play 2 as I nearly always do. You should probably wait for the first 2 events to complete which means you should start this shoe at play 6. This merely means I'm already up 2 units when you start.

NORM shoe #1:

B13211241221

P1321111212211

P233121112211

B323

OK this shoe is strictly OTB4L right from the get go.

How do I know that for sure? Any shoe starting with 1,3 is OTB4L at least so far. That much you should know cold.

We always start OTB4L in Mode 3 and OTB4LM3 beats single and double 1's, 2s, 3s, and 4s. You should know this cold from your own practice. Sure, it is in the NOR Manual but I don't want you knowing stuff from memorization. I want you knowing stuff from practice. So, not only does OTB4L beat the first 2 events, it beats EVERY event all the way to play #31 where you lose your first 3rd bet (it is also a 3 bet). So, since you were in Mode 3, you go OTR FOR ONE BET win or lose. You win your 4 and go straight back to OTB4L and win your 2 as well. Your pulse goes back to normal.

OK look, I know some of our best players like to stay on runs once successfully on them. But my rules will win the most bets overall and you will STILL beat the long runs no matter how long.

So, OK, in M3 you lost your first 3 against a ZZ run. What does that mean? The losing 3 bet means you are now in Mode 2 against ZZ runs. But you are still in M3 against straight runs because you haven't lost a 3 against ST runs yet and you never do in this whole shoe. So you are in M3 for ST runs the whole shoe but you are now in M2 against ZZs. This comes in very handy at play 55 because here your 3 bets goes OTR and wins. Your attempt to stay OTR for 2 bets per the rules loses so you are back to OTB4L and win your 2 bet and it is clear sailing to the end of the shoe and you score +31, down from +32. That is a 30% P.A. no matter where you started. About as perfect as they come. So much for touch games being unbeatable. We killed the shoe just sticking to our rules and never bet more than a single 4 bet.

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Norm shoe #2:

P112121111111222

P1414121114

B215241311

B4

OK we start S40 this time: The shoe starts 1,1. Not sure yet, Fine. It starts 112. Now you are sure!

OK, the first col gets to +14 with nothing more than a 2 bet.

Remember, the choppier a shoe the more you want M3.

So, you should win your 3 bet at play #22.

But you lose your 3 bet at play #25 putting you in M2.

You lose your 4 at play #26 but win your 5 at play #27.

Then you lose your 3,4 and win your 5 OTR again.

ANY time you get to a 5 bet you need to be checking your system. You just got to your 5 twice.

OK what the hell are we looking at that caused these problems? A 414. That is 8 Banks to one Player. That is SS (Strong Side) and SS means F3! So our 4 bet at play 32 has got to go on B.

Now we see SS as well as sporadic 1's. That confirms F3.

WHY? Why not F2? They both play exactly the same EXCEPT F2 ONLY beats sporadic 1's while F3 beats sporadic 1's as well as sporadic 2s and we usually get a 2 in there some place. And we do but big whip. F3 goes all the way to the end of the shoe and scores +33. See that? We not only survived a switch and 2 5 bets, we also killed the shoe.

I'm sure somebody is thinking: "Hey that is easy when you are looking at a whole shoe."

Look, I'm just playing by the rules I've set forth a dozen times.

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Norm shoe #3.

P114111314111

P1214291

P111337211

B23111

OK, this shoe starts with 1,1 perhaps putting you on S40 at first. But by play 6 you are looking at 5 Banks vs 1 Player. That is F loud and clear. The sporadic 1s and 2s put you solidly in F3 for the whole shoe. You are on Bank every play for the whole shoe except for one bet. And the smartest of you might not have even made That one P bet. Sometimes when a shoe is that SS some of us go to F4.

So OK you lose your 4 bet at play #50 (perhaps) so what do you do??? You play by the F rules and switch right back to Bank and win your 5,3. End of problem. But at play #64 you hit +30 for the 2nd time. Or, your highest score or half decade cash mgt. You quit! You end up with +25 or +30 depending on how soon you got to F3.

So back to the basic question:

Are touch games beatable?

Absolutely - Just don't expect to be going for +30 every time like these 3 shoes.

+20 is a good goal just like it says in your NOR+ thread.

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60 shoes in one trip! Wow! I used to do that but now I settle for 20. And 60 touch shoes at that! Touch games usually take twice as long to play.

Hi Ellis

The 60 Bac shoes and 20 Roul shoes were played over a 7 day trip, also keep in mind that about 25 of the Bac shoes were only played to half a shoe.

Also at the MGM there are about 12 Bac tables, I would play at a table that had no players and play head to head and let the dealer open all the cards as though it was a MINI game.

I try to avoid MIDI games where the other players are folding and taking forever to open the cards with there 2 spots, 3 spots bull shit and so on it drives me crazy.

This weekend I am going to Biloxi for 3 days and will be playing at the MINI tables to see how they compare to the Vegas Roul shoes.

No Roul on this trip no single "0" in Bilxi.

Norm A

FOLLOW THE SHOE

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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One other thing:

NORM got a good mix of S40, OTB4L, and F shoes at the touch only tables.

On my own trip I only played 3 touch tables but I saw no F shoes on any of the 20 that I played or on the 100 or so tote boards I saw in 4 or 5 casinos. This just goes to show you that Vegas likes to present a moving target. It will be different every time you go and you need to go by what you see when you are THERE.

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Hi Ellis

The 60 Bac shoes and 20 Roul shoes were played over a 7 day trip, also keep in mind that about 25 of the Bac shoes were only played to half a shoe.

Also at the MGM there are about 12 Bac tables, I would play at a table that had no players and play head to head and let the dealer open all the cards as though it was a MINI game.

I try to avoid MIDI games where the other players are folding and taking forever to open the cards with there 2 spots, 3 spots bull shit and so on it drives me crazy.

This weekend I am going to Biloxi for 3 days and will be playing at the MINI tables to see how they compare to the Vegas Roul shoes.

No Roul on this trip no single "0" in Bilxi.

Thanks Norm! Now I don't feel so old.

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Thanks Norm! Now I don't feel so old.

I wish that I did not feel so old, problem is that I do feel old , It gets harder & harder to keep going, remember we are the same age.

With some of the same medical problems.

Norm A

FOLLOW THE SHOE

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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One other point. When I was in Vegas for 5 days every casino I went to was favoring OTB4L with some S40 mixed in. I saw no F. So I could afford to start right at play 2. The same with Tunica. Look at PJs shoes. OTB4L was the name of the game.

BUT had I been in Vegas when Norm was there and saw shoes of all 3 kinds about equal I likely would have waited for the first 2 events to start.

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I wish that I did not feel so old, problem is that I do feel old , It gets harder & harder to keep going, remember we are the same age.

LOL

Yeah, tell me about it!

You know, I lived a rough life. Did everything possible to do and perhaps a few impossible. Yeah sure, I'm paying for it now.

BUT, everything said and done, I lived life to its fullest, not like some sort of milk toast..... Threw the most accurate snow ball, and baseball, held underwater swimming records, drove the fastest cars, skated with the fastest, slept with an M1, 26 countries on my passport, drank the oldest Scotch... I wouldn't trade lives with anybody!

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Yeah, tell me about it!

You know, I lived a rough life. Did everything possible to do and perhaps a few impossible. Yeah sure, I'm paying for it now.

BUT, everything said and done, I lived life to its fullest, not like some sort of milk toast..... Threw the most accurate snow ball, and baseball, held underwater swimming records, drove the fastest cars, skated with the fastest, slept with an M1, 26 countries on my passport, drank the oldest Scotch... I wouldn't trade lives with anybody!

Same here, but what the hell is a M 1, did I miss something in life ?? maybe its not to late.

Norm A

FOLLOW THE SHOE

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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Keith Smith

Thanks for the post Norm you're in Biloxi me Ellis and Vickie will be at Tunica this weekend playing

You can tell the winners and honest players by how many times they admit they lost 
not by how many times they say they won.

Need Information Messenger

https://m.me/beatthecasinodotcom

司奇士

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Same here, but what the hell is a M1, did I miss something in life ?? maybe its not to late.

It's a .306 military rifle. I'm pretty sure you're too late to join now. But you didn't miss much.

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It's a .306 military rifle. I'm pretty sure you're too late to join now. But you didn't miss much.

I see at first I thought M 1 was a #1 supper model that you slept with, I did not sleep with ether one myself.

I did not get the chance to be introduced to the M 1 as I was fighting fires that the low life's were starting in NYC,

they would start fires in the 5 and 6 story tenement buildings so that they could get a better free place to live.

Norm A

FOLLOW THE SHOE

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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I see at first I thought M 1 was a #1 supper model that you slept with, I did not sleep with ether one myself.

I did not get the chance to be introduced to the M 1 as I was fighting fires that the low life's were starting in NYC,

they would start fires in the 5 and 6 story tenement buildings so that they could get a better free place to live.

Geez, no wonder you are a Republican! Give them more guns. That will solve the whole problem - just as it did in West Memphis.

The M1 was a remarkable weapon! I could hit a tank turret with tracer bullets a mile away. Did that ever piss them off! I learned that there is no big future in pissing off tanks!

BTW, I was a medic in a tank battalion.

If I had it to do over again I'd be a life guard as I was in civilian life from age 15. But little did I know that life guarding is the best deal in the whole army - and you get a nice tan to boot.

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Hello Ellis

Thank You so much for playing the first 3 shoes this is exactly what is needed the play by play and your thoughts on what is happening at the start of the shoe and during the shoe if we need a change of methods..

Please can you keep playing more of these these are great learning tools

In those 3 shoes you played i have learn't so much already playing along with you and reading your comments

This is great stuff

Thanks Ellis

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Hello Ellis

Thank You so much for playing the first 3 shoes this is exactly what is needed the play by play and your thoughts on what is happening at the start of the shoe and during the shoe if we need a change of methods..

Please can you keep playing more of these these are great learning tools

In those 3 shoes you played i have learn't so much already playing along with you and reading your comments

This is great stuff

Thanks Ellis

Well sure, but how about somebody else playing the next 3. Zebra, PJ, Oz or how about one of the new guys. So you make a mistake or two - big whip - that is how you learn!

Norm has provided perhaps the best learning opportunity ever on this forum! So lets put it to good use.

The whole secret of Baccarat is knowing what each system likes and just as important - what they dislike.

Then , how the modes stretch what they like but also what they dislike.

For instance:

S40 likes high 1's - more than 1 every 4 plays

S40 likes 1's and 2s

S40 M3 lets you throw 3s into your list of victims

The chopier it is the more you favor M3 - high 3s vs low 4+s

The streakier it is the more you favor M2 High 4+s vs low 3s

S40 hates streak - long ST runs

F likes streak - long ST and ZZ runs

F likes SS - Strong side

F likes a high minus OR count

F likes sporadic 1s

F3 likes sporadic 1's mixed with sporadic 2s

F hates chop especially with equal Ps and Bs

OTB4L likes a 0 OR count - equal opposites and repeats - equal Ps and Bs - a high OT count

OTB4L Loves 2s and TT runs (PP BB PP BB)

OTB4L likes 3s

OTB4L likes runless shoes

M2 likes single 1's

M3 likes double 1s

Again, the chopier it is the more you favor M3 but the streakier it is the more you favor M2

OTB4L hates long runs and especially runs following runs - ST or ZZ

That covers every shoe type there is EXCEPT shoes that totally change their nature mid shoe like shoe #2 below.

But that is what the switch is for. When do we switch? When we are getting multiple high bets - 4 units or more - when our 1 and 2 unit bets are not hitting. What did the shoe change to? Which system likes what the shoe is doing now? And when you switch, be alert to switching right back. Shoes often return to their main nature. But not always. Shoe 2 changed to F3 and stayed there.

OK, that is Baccarat in a nut shell. If you can learn all of the above to the point you react automatically, you can beat Baccarat.

The shoes talk to you. It is as if they want you to beat them. The trick is to learn to listen. And the more you practice the louder their voice gets. Sometimes they shout at you. But are you listening?

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Guys, I'll be leaving for Tunica early tomorrow. Hopefully will be back Tues.

I'm hoping while I'm gone that some of you can take a crack at these shoes.

These are touch shoes. If you can beat these, you can beat anything.

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Guys, I'll be leaving for Tunica early tomorrow. Hopefully will be back Tues.

I'm hoping while I'm gone that some of you can take a crack at these shoes.

These are touch shoes. If you can beat these, you can beat anything.

It is very, very important that when you practice with theses shoes you do it in the following manner :

When you print out a shoe DO NOT LOOK AT IT cover it up with a piece of paper and start playing it by reveling one hand at a time.

NO PEEKING AT THE NEXT HAND

Anyone could win a shoe after the fact, when they see the whole shoe in advance. You need to play as though you were in the casino.

ONE HAND AT A TIME. I great way to do this is to teem up with a partner and one partner feeds the shoe to the other one hand at a time.

It could be done over the phone. PJ and I have done this several times.

If you don't practice in this manner you are only kidding yourself.

Also do not expect to get the same results in the casino as you get practicing at home.

In the casino you will have a lot of distractions and pressure, and might be rushed to place you bet.

It is a whole different ball game when you are playing a live game in the casino with money on the table.

Even the best seasoned player will make mistakes in a live casino game.

For the record in theses 60 shoes I won 48 shoes and lost 12 shoes

My highest score was +60. In the 12 shoes that I lost I got out at my stop loss witch is -7 or -8.

My average score over the 60 shoes was +10 unit per shoe.

I never made a bet more then 4 units and very few 4 unit bets.

I do not play the NOR system that is why you see the OT count on my scorecards,

and for this reason I will not post my played shoes as I don't want to muddy the waters,

as most of you are learning and playing NOR.

NOR is a good way to play, stick with it and MASTER it. do not jump from one new system to another if they come along.

All you need to do is MASTER one system no mater what that system is.

It took me 5 years and over 5,000 live casino shoes ( living in Vegas for 3 years I played every day)

to learn how to play the way I am playing now and I am still trying to MASTER it.

When you think you mastered it don't get over confident because it will bite you in the ass.

You must practice every day.

NormA

Norm A

FOLLOW THE SHOE

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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The shoes talk to you. It is as if they want you to beat them. The trick is to learn to listen. And the more you practice the louder their voice gets. Sometimes they shout at you. But are you listening?

Ellis, you have provided us with incredible teachings, both here on the board and in seminars, but this may be the most important statement you have made! For those who are still practicing and learning the NOR mechanics -- get the mechanics down cold, THEN come back and ponder on what Ellis says here. From my experience, THIS is what will make you a regular and consistent winner. Thank you Ellis!

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It is very, very important that when you practice with theses shoes you do it in the following manner :

When you print out a shoe DO NOT LOOK AT IT cover it up with a piece of paper and start playing it by reveling one hand at a time.

NO PEEKING AT THE NEXT HAND

Anyone could win a shoe after the fact, when they see the whole shoe in advance. You need to play as though you were in the casino.

ONE HAND AT A TIME. I great way to do this is to teem up with a partner and one partner feeds the shoe to the other one hand at a time.

It could be done over the phone. PJ and I have done this several times.

If you don't practice in this manner you are only kidding yourself.

Also do not expect to get the same results in the casino as you get practicing at home.

In the casino you will have a lot of distractions and pressure, and might be rushed to place you bet.

It is a whole different ball game when you are playing a live game in the casino with money on the table.

Even the best seasoned player will make mistakes in a live casino game.

For the record in theses 60 shoes I won 48 shoes and lost 12 shoes

My highest score was +60. In the 12 shoes that I lost I got out at my stop loss witch is -7 or -8.

My average score over the 60 shoes was +10 unit per shoe.

I never made a bet more then 4 units and very few 4 unit bets.

I do not play the NOR system that is why you see the OT count on my scorecards,

and for this reason I will not post my played shoes as I don't want to muddy the waters,

as most of you are learning and playing NOR.

NOR is a good way to play, stick with it and MASTER it. do not jump from one new system to another if they come along.

All you need to do is MASTER one system no mater what that system is.

It took me 5 years and over 5,000 live casino shoes ( living in Vegas for 3 years I played every day)

to learn how to play the way I am playing now and I am still trying to MASTER it.

When you think you mastered it don't get over confident because it will bite you in the ass.

You must practice every day.

NormA

All excellent advice from someone who knows!

An average of +10 units per shoe, W/O betting more than 4, while averaging -7 on losing shoes is professional level play pure and simple. It demonstrates that NOR alone, with a 123 4 prog already beats Baccarat. NOR+ is something you look at only when you have NOR mastered. NOR+ is really only a more aggressive way of playing NOR. It is not for everybody. Some will be more comfortable with NOR.

When you use -8 as a stop loss, sure some of your losing shoes will in fact be -8. But you will also have quite a few -7s, -6s and -5s and a few - 4s (you arrive at -4 with a 5 bet due). Personally, I also get a few -3s, -2s, and -1's because I strongly tend to leave a table where the game went to hell. I try to leave at +1 but that is not always the case.

A good statistic to keep is your avg winning shoe score vs your avg losing shoe score. Norm gave you his overall average. I'm going to guess that his avg winning shoe is about +14, while his avg losing shoe score is about -7.

Once your avg win is greater than your avg loss the trick is to win more than half your shoes. And Bac is a 50/50 game so that is not much of a trick. But Norm beat 50%. He hit 80%. That is pro level play.

Once you start looking at your average winning score vs your avg losing score you start protecting and striving to improve your numbers. All the better.

Baccarat is not about heroic bets. It is about making the most out of your good shoes while getting out early on your bad shoes. Know when to attack but just as important - when to retreat.

Think about this: most players make their highest bets in their worst shoes. How stupid is that?

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