Having trouble How would you play this?

[Guest]

Did you move from Vegas? I have often wondered if Red Rock removes some of the smaller cards so the dragon does not hit on the weekends. At the casinos in Chicago it hits about twice a shoe. An rare occasions there is not one in a shoe. One weekend when I was there it hit only twice in one day. The table had an extreme amounts of naturals like there were extra big cards in the decks. And the ss was player in both shoes. This was the same weekend that this shoe was played. I was there again later during the week and it was back to normal. But they are getting 72-76 hands in a shoe on a regular basis. I know they bring their cards out boxed and ready to go in the shuffler rather than taking them out of the boxes at the table. Guess that would be a sign that they have set them up to start out the way they want. Made sense to me when I read that it the manual and recalled that they didn't spread their cards. I am use to the casinos in Illinois. They take all the cards out at the table and spread them so you can see that they are all there and have not been tampered with.

That is called short decking. Unfortunately far too common in both BJ and Bac. Everyone used to have to spread the cards after all the players left the table. But that was back when I started and there was just Vegas and A.C.

It is very hard to prove but once in a while you CAN. Like the time I counted 6s out loud - VERY loud in an MN Indian casino BJ game. I got to 35 in a 6 deck game and there were still 2 decks to go! Half the casino was watching, including the Casino Mgr and his whole staff. If I didn't have 40 guys with me I probably would have been put out of my mysery. It's a good thing mysery loves company!

But it is still going on! Last month I was playing 6 deck BJ at a major casino. I was playing NBJ First Base. You make your high bet when the last round had more highs than lows. Such a round never occurred playing head to head. That is completely impossible. They probabley replaced 10s with 5s and 6s making the game impossible to beat. I left the casino - for good!

Ha, then I have to listen to these totally naive guys who say casinos would never cheat. Idiots, we are surrounded by idiots!

Then I was playing in the Canary Islands at a privately owned neighborhood type casino. It quickly became obvious that these guys never heard of pro BJ players and had no tactics against me. I won every shoe handily all night long. But I tipped well!

The same thing happened to me in a bar game in Blackrock Col. I ended up nearly owning the bar. But I tipped well!

Then the same thing happed to my staff when we filled a table at the Blackhawk casino. We won every shoe. Finally they paid us to leave. Ask Keith or Ron or the Laverys or Doc.

And the same thing at a Carson City casino/bar. I guess I've played just about everywhere. But I tipped well!

[moneybac]

well since your on the subject,i was at the casino yesterday,me and another player who's probability played more baccarat than you ellis,and maybe keith together,we kept seeing how you could lose with a 7,there's only 2 cards that can beat you,if you didn't lose ,it would be a tie,move to another table same thing,ive seen this happen before,certain days,then it would disappear the next time you went there, no one else notice,that i could see,but yesterday it was unreal,play 12 hands with a 7,you might win 1 maybe 2 ,how do they do that,same way with the 6's,we do have match plays,besides tie,maybe they left themselves wide open for something else

Edited July 16, 2013 by moneybac
left out words

[ECD]

I am use to the casinos in Illinois. They take all the cards out at the table and spread them so you can see that they are all there and have not been tampered with.

Shereevanest, I had a question about the Bac cards in Illinois. Are you saying they come to the table in 8 separate boxes, or is it one box of factory pre-shuffled that is spread on the table. If 8 separate boxes, do they manually shuffle or use a machine? Do you know when during the day they bring new cards? Do you have any experience at River's near O'hare? Sorry for all the questions, but I will have a few hours to kill there in a couple weeks and was going to check out Rivers.

[shereevanest]

Yes. I purchased many systems and never found any that worked. However I am very excited about this one. It is totally different and you back it up. I have been practicing and reading the manual over and over. I find something new each time that I have run across in my practice. I do have a question. I played a shoe last night that even though it had a positive OR count (S40) did better with (SS). Is that common? Would SS overpower S40 the majority of the time?

[shereevanest]

I worked at a casino in Milwaukee for three years. I know for a fact they cheated. Also, we had shuffle machines that could put the cards back in the same order they came out of the box. It was amazing. They wouldn't let put the cards back in order on the machine in front of the customers because they did it once and the customers freaked out.

[shereevanest]

Try Horseshoe instead. They have a wonderful Bacc room. Probably 30 tables. Yes. They bring the cards in the original factory box that is still sealed with plastic wrap around them. Open them up in front of you and spread them all on the table for you to see. The room at the Horseshoe is soooo nice. They even have an Asian restaurant that is open 24/7 inside the bacc room. They call it the Noodle Bar. You can get some great food there. I never when to River's. It was just opening when I left the area.

[moneybac]

shereevanest your right about the shufflemaster machine,put the cards back in order,they say the save money.don't have to pay dealers to do that.i wonder what else they can do with shufflemaster,they have updated with newer models since then.

[shereevanest]

I am sure if they can be programmed to put the cards back in order they can be programmed on how to shuffle the cards. They did use it to save money because before they had the machines that would sort them, the dealers had to sort them back in order at the end of each shift so they were paying employees to sort the cards. The shuffle machines could do it in a quarter of the time.

[Guest]

well since your on the subject,i was at the casino yesterday,me and another player who's probability played more baccarat than you ellis,and maybe keith together,we kept seeing how you could lose with a 7,there's only 2 cards that can beat you,if you didn't lose ,it would be a tie,move to another table same thing,ive seen this happen before,certain days,then it would disappear the next time you went there, no one else notice,that i could see,but yesterday it was unreal,play 12 hands with a 7,you might win 1 maybe 2 ,how do they do that,same way with the 6's,we do have match plays,besides tie,maybe they left themselves wide open for something else

Then he should know there's a saying in Baccarat: "7 never wins".

[Guest]

Try Horseshoe instead. They have a wonderful Bacc room. Probably 30 tables. Yes. They bring the cards in the original factory box that is still sealed with plastic wrap around them. Open them up in front of you and spread them all on the table for you to see. The room at the Horseshoe is soooo nice. They even have an Asian restaurant that is open 24/7 inside the bacc room. They call it the Noodle Bar. You can get some great food there. I never when to River's. It was just opening when I left the area.

You mean 8 individual sealed boxes, right?

[Guest]

I worked at a casino in Milwaukee for three years. I know for a fact they cheated. Also, we had shuffle machines that could put the cards back in the same order they came out of the box. It was amazing. They wouldn't let put the cards back in order on the machine in front of the customers because they did it once and the customers freaked out.

Pretty scary!

[Wendel]

Nice thing about baccarat is that once the cards are in the shoe, they are in the shoe and the only

thing we have to worry about from that point on is dealers with quick hands .

I was playing blackjack at our local casino, when I asked one of the people in the pit if the CSM could read the values of the cards. The reply was "oh no, but that one over there, (pointing at a different table game

across the pit) it can put the cards back in boxed card order."

[ECD]

Try Horseshoe instead. They have a wonderful Bacc room. Probably 30 tables. Yes. They bring the cards in the original factory box that is still sealed with plastic wrap around them. Open them up in front of you and spread them all on the table for you to see. The room at the Horseshoe is soooo nice. They even have an Asian restaurant that is open 24/7 inside the bacc room. They call it the Noodle Bar. You can get some great food there. I never when to River's. It was just opening when I left the area.

Thanks for the suggestion. I am familiar with Horseshoe in Hammond -- they do have a great room there. Only I am driving from Whistling Straights back to O'Hare, so making the extra trip out to Indiana is not in the cards this time. So will go check out the new Rivers Casino. No loss if it sucks -- will be in Vegas this weekend and the weekend after the Wisconsin/Illinois trip, so not like I am missing much casino time these days.

[shereevanest]

Yes. Eight individual boxes straight from the factory.

[shereevanest]

I went to Whistling Staights to see Tiger Woods play one time. It is beautiful there. Right on the water too.

[Guest]

Thanks for the suggestion. I am familiar with Horseshoe in Hammond -- they do have a great room there. Only I am driving from Whistling Straights back to O'Hare, so making the extra trip out to Indiana is not in the cards this time. So will go check out the new Rivers Casino. No loss if it sucks -- will be in Vegas this weekend and the weekend after the Wisconsin/Illinois trip, so not like I am missing much casino time these days.

Sorry to say, I have not heard anything good about Rivers but I'd like another opinion. I'd also like to know if Horseshoe, Hammond is regular or preshuffled cards.

[Guest]

I think it is safe to say that if a machine can put cards back into boxed card order, they can put the cards into any prescribed order by simply changing chips. So you are up against what I call Designer shoes. Some Bac expert sits there and designs supposedly impossible to beat shoes and then creates chips for the best 300 or so. This is nothing new.

I used to have a pile of 300 or so such shoes. I went on retreat with this pile and worked on them for days at a desk on a balcony overlooking a golf course green, totally undisturbed. No, I didn't play any golf that trip.

And I came up with something interesting:

What do we know about such shoes?

Well putting myself in the mind of the designer he's going to throw a little of everything at you. You will get straight runs on both sides with runs following runs, ZZ runs, TT runs, Opposites = to Repeats and P = to B plus sporadic 1's and 2s. The idea is to prevent you from getting a toe hold on anything consistent. The only consistency is inconsistency. I fear that all preshuffled are such shoes these days.

What I came up with is sort of an F 4 kind of thing: I bet on the dominant side of the last 5 plays. This puts me on all straight runs either early or late. It keeps me on the same side for ZZ and TT runs and sporadic 1's and 2s.

I bet U1D1 but down 2 on winning bets of 7 or more. I also went down 2 when I won every other bet. For instance if I lost a 5, won a 6, lost a 5 and won a 6, I went to 4. This was very effective in achieving my goal of getting down to 2. My stop win was any winning 2 bet in the 2nd half.

I used a buy in, stop loss and stop win of 20 units. You need to be prepared for a real roller coaster ride.

You guys might want to experiment on your own.

But this worked about 90% of the time. Sooner or later you hit a run on the side you are on that gets you back down to a 2 bet. Usually. I played to a goal of +20.

[Guest]

Nice thing about baccarat is that once the cards are in the shoe, they are in the shoe and the only

thing we have to worry about from that point on is dealers with quick hands .

I was playing blackjack at our local casino, when I asked one of the people in the pit if the CSM could read the values of the cards. The reply was "oh no, but that one over there, (pointing at a different table game

across the pit) it can put the cards back in boxed card order."

Right, once the first card is dealt, the die is cast. This is why it is so ridiculous to play with the cards given you to turn over wasting everyone's time. Just turn the damn things over and toss them in. If they only knew how much the casino personnel laugh at such antics.... It is not a friendly laugh. More like laughing at idiots.

[moneybac]

i'v had them do a double shuffle on me twice,pitboss walks over and stare's at the machine looking more dumber than ever,dealer will look's at him,they mumble about the button. this is at the end of the shoe,then they press the button,and the dealer will say it's going to take 15min.of course he forgot to press the button.but that shoe was good for me,but the second time they did that another time, they got it right,i found a bunch of score cards the second time at the table.they were all chop,so i played.good shoe,then the double shuffle,i wasn't ready for this,because i did good last time,turned into a f on bank,then 25 hands later on player,then zig zag,then all over the place, cleaned everyone out.i learned some new words from china LOL.i wasn't going tell you about this,no one will believe it,i just had a bad day,the casino's don't cheat,there my friend.LOL.

[ECD]

Sorry to say, I have not heard anything good about Rivers but I'd like another opinion.

I will be at Rivers for a few hours next Wednesday and will give you a report.

[shereevanest]

When I was there they were regular cards. I have been gone from there for two years now. But they have a wonderful bacc room.

[shereevanest]

Yes. I can't play the big bacc tables either. It gets on my nerves. I have to have a faster game.

[shereevanest]

Yes. That was a bad thing to do. The dealer doesn't have to push a button. Once he puts the cards in the machine automatically starts to shuffle them. If it had not started the cards would have still been up out of the machine.

[ECD]

Yes. I can't play the big bacc tables either. It gets on my nerves. I have to have a faster game.

I can't figure out the attraction...at the $200 min tables, the players are bending and peeking at the cards and a single game can last over an hour and a half...but at the $50 min and ridiculously high max...the game moves at least twice as quick.

What's the difference between laying down $200 on the $200 min table and $200 on the $50 min table?...Go figure...LOL

[Guest]

I can't figure out the attraction...at the $200 min tables, the players are bending and peeking at the cards and a single game can last over an hour and a half...but at the $50 min and ridiculously high max...the game moves at least twice as quick.

What's the difference between laying down $200 on the $200 min table and $200 on the $50 min table?...Go figure...LOL

Once the first card of the shoe is dealt the die is cast. There is nothing anyone can do to a card to change its value. They just THINK they can. Meanwhile the casino is laughing up their sleve at them. Makes you wonder how such superstitious people made their money in the first place. We've got the blind leading the ignorant. Wealth is not necessarily a sign of intelligence.