# Having trouble How would you play this?

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B229112114

P11315321

P4433211

P12214251121

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I have a shoe,i'm having trouble to,so I guess this would be a good place to put it,here goes,b1,1,4,2,1,1,1,3,1,3,2,-b1,2,9,2,1,3,1,1 p1,3,5,8,2,1,-p1,3,4, would this be an rd shoe

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Come on guys, let's try to keep it in the correct format for all to use.

Just trying to keep it all the same for consistency.

Thanks.

Shereevanest Shoe:

B229112114

P11315321

P4433211

P12214251121

B229112111

B311315321

P44332121

B1214251121

Moneybac's Shoe:

b1,1,4,2,1,1,1,3,1,3,2,-b1,2,9,2,1,3,1,1 p1,3,5,8,2,1,-p1,3,4,

B11421113132

B12921311

P135821

P134

MVS

Edited by MVSeahog
Corrected Shereevanest transcription
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So you would divide the run of four on the end of the first row? Sorry I didn't realize that.

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Have decided this is one of the shoes you just don't want to play.

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So you would divide the run of four on the end of the first row? Sorry I didn't realize that.

Not a problem at all.

Thanks for posting it up.

MVS

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Come on guys, let's try to keep it in the correct format for all to use.

Just trying to keep it all the same for consistency.

Thanks.

Shereevanest Shoe:

B229112114

P11315321

P4433211

P12214251121

B229112111

B311315321

P44332112

B221425112

P1

Moneybac's Shoe:

b1,1,4,2,1,1,1,3,1,3,2,-b1,2,9,2,1,3,1,1 p1,3,5,8,2,1,-p1,3,4,

B11421113132

B12921311

P135821

P134

MVS

Right, use cols of 20 to match our score card system. Easier for us to transcribe.

We don't know what came before these shoes so we are playing in the blind which is a no no.

Don't know where you guys are getting these 9s but both of these are quit with a small win and change tables.

Sheree's you would probably start OTB4L M3 if you didn't know from prior shoes to start F. And you might very well switch to F when you hit your 4 on the 6th circle of the 9 because you are looking at 8 Banks vs 2 Ps. But either way, the shoe goes to hell and you keep going to high bets so you should protect your small win and quit the shoe. There are likely better tables.

Same with moneybac's. You'd likely start S40 and start OK but you keep getting to 4 bets at the bottom of the first col and the top of the 2nd. The shoe is telling you to quit while you can.

The other players are going to get killed on these shoes. But our greater skill says quit with a small win.

But both shoes do bring up how to play 9s. So OK, you hit the 9 in mode 3. BUT your 3rd bet rule switches you to Mode 2 even though you win your 4 bets. So, you do OK on the 9s. But you keep getting to 4 bets which is a definite quit signal.

The skill here is not fighting City Hall and getting out with a small win. That is a whole lot better than the other players will do. Find an easier table.

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thank's Ellis,all 6 tables were like that,this was in the afternoon,guess have to get there sooner,been getting some 10's and 11's in a row,we have one guy that just waits then kills them,lose one then stops,that's it,gets his orange and black chips out the dr.but he has a stop loss,could lose 6 times in a row,or 6 days then the 7th day here goes,always asking me about the game,one day he won 23,000 on 1 shoe,lost a couple of bets on the next shoe out the dr.fun to watch when it happens,i had him go pbpb 8 times,1 day and everyone saying what are you doing,and he said i told him to do that with a big smile on his face

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thank's Ellis,all 6 tables were like that,this was in the afternoon,guess have to get there sooner,been getting some 10's and 11's in a row,we have one guy that just waits then kills them,lose one then stops,that's it,gets his orange and black chips out the dr.but he has a stop loss,could lose 6 times in a row,or 6 days then the 7th day here goes,always asking me about the game,one day he won 23,000 on 1 shoe,lost a couple of bets on the next shoe out the dr.fun to watch when it happens,i had him go pbpb 8 times,1 day and everyone saying what are you doing,and he said i told him to do that with a big smile on his face

Yep, the more you study and practice, the luckier you get.

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Ellis nice write up on the shoes from hell,to me this is the real stuff,i can relate,no what to do next,no change,just knowning i'm on the right track,is such a big plus,more guys should take advantage of this stuff.you can only get so much out of the books.

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• Users

I took a cut at Sheree's shoe with Nor + U1D2 starting mode 3 .

I probably made an error somewhere, in which case both of us may learn something.

TIA

Play Bet Score Mode Comment

1 0 M3,Z3

2 0

3 P1 W 1

4 P1 W 2

5 B1 W 3

6 B1 W 4

7 P1 L 3

8 P2 L 1

9 P3 L -2

10 B4 W 2 M2,Z3 switch to M2 on lost 3 bet

11 P2 L 4

12 P3 L

13 B4 W 1 M2,Z3 Mode stays at M2

14 P2 W 3 I often forget the second OTR

Bet, so I left it.And will not play

a second OTR Bet until itstops working

15 P1 L

16 B2 L

17 P3 W 3

18 B1 W 4

19 B1 L

20 P2 L

21 B3 W 4 M2,Z3 Played this ZZ like the previous

so I am more or less still following

the rules

22 P1 L 3

23 P2 L 1

24 B3 L -2

25 P4 L -6 TOAST !!!!

_________________________________________

Draw a line and start over at Play 26

M3,Z3

26 B1 L

27 P2 W 1

28 P1 L

29 B2 W 2

30 B1 L 1

31 P2 W 3 M1,Z3 Up to this point I have

counted 2 4+ IAR and 1 3 IAR

Switch to M1

32 B1 L 2

33 P2 W 4

34 B1 L

35 B2 W 5

36 B1 W 6

37 P1 L 5

38 B2 L 3 M1,Z3 We still have more 4 + IAR's

Than 3 IAR's staying M1

39 P3 W 6

40 B1 W 7

41 B1 L 6

42 P2 W 8

43 B1 L

44 P2 W 9

45 B1 W

46 B1 W 11 We are + 5 for the shoe

47 P1 L

48 B2 W 12 M1, Z3

49 P1 W

50 P2 W 14

51 B1 L 13

52 P2 L 11

53 B3 W 14 M1,Z3

54 P1 L

55 P2 W 15

56 P1 W 16 M1,Z3 M1 is still working more or les

57 B1 W 17

58 B1 L 14

59 P2 L 12

60 B3 W 17 +11 for the shoe

61 P1 L

62 B2 W 18

63 P1 W

64 P1 W 20

65 B1 W 21

66 B1 L

67 P2 W 22

68 B1 L

69 P2 W 23

70 B1 W

71 B1 W 25

72 P1 W

73 P1 W 27

74 B1 L

75 P2 W 28

76 B1 L

77 B2 W 29

78 B1 L

79 B2 W 30 M1, Z1 I Think We lost enough 2 bets on ZZ

to allow mode 1 on ZZ runs

80 B1 W

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B229112114

P11315321

P4433211

P12214251121

WOW Is this correct 81 hands, I never seen a shoe go 81 hands??

Norm A

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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WOW Is this correct 81 hands, I never seen a shoe go 81 hands??

Shit happens - probably very few ties. I've seen it lots of times - even 83-84.

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Shit happens - probably very few ties. I've seen it lots of times - even 83-84.

We must be living on different planets.

With over 5,000 live casino shoes played I have see shoes that had no ties although that is very rare,

even those shoes did not go that long.

I wonder if this was a live casino shoe or an online shoe, God only knows what they do on line.

Norm A

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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WOW Is this correct 81 hands, I never seen a shoe go 81 hands??

NormA (and everybody else),

I just went back and double checked the posted shoe and it was 80 hands. Once I plotted out the shoe that Shereevanest posted up, the discrepancy showed itself.

With that said, I have seen a few shoes that have gone over 80 hands. Probably not more than 3 or 4, but they are out there. Throw out a lot of natural hands with minimal ties and you've got a shoe running over 75 hands for sure.

MVS

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NormA (and everybody else),

I just went back and double checked the posted shoe and it was 80 hands. Once I plotted out the shoe that Shereevanest posted up, the discrepancy showed itself.

With that said, I have seen a few shoes that have gone over 80 hands. Probably not more than 3 or 4, but they are out there. Throw out a lot of natural hands with minimal ties and you've got a shoe running over 75 hands for sure.

MVS

OK, You and Ellis get them but not I. I guess it's just the way the ball bonuced .

I missed the few that are out there. LOL

NornA

Norm A

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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• Users
We must be living on different planets.

With over 5,000 live casino shoes played I have see shoes that had no ties although that is very rare,

even those shoes did not go that long.

I wonder if this was a live casino shoe or an online shoe, God only knows what they do on line.

In my limited experience..."Live Dealer" 8 deck online shoes are in general 10 to 15 hands shorter than in Bricks and mortar casinos. Accordingly... I have to reduce my expectations when playing online. Playing U1D1M2 at the Sydney Casino ...I look for my winning shoes to be in the 30's...Online...I'm happy to get in the mid to high 20's. I wonder sometimes whether I should adjust my STOP/LOSS because of this anomaly. I generally play a -12 STOP/LOSS when utilising U1D1M2 for both online and real casino shoes but on reflection....Hmmmm?

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It was a live shoe and there were a lot of natural hands. It was played at Red Rock in Vegas.

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It was a live shoe and there were a lot of natural hands. It was played at Red Rock in Vegas.

I know the Red Rock very well, it was my second home when I lived Vegas (only 10 min. away) I was there every day.

All the dealers know me ask them if they remember me, (Norman Allen) I am sure they will, please say HI to them for me.

I am the guy who is responsible for them lowering the maximum Dragon bet from \$100 to \$50 because I was hitting it to often,

I got very good at knowing when it was coming, ask Shawn he will tell you all about it ( i think that is his name he is a very big guy and very nice)

I played mostly in the High limit room.

Please say Hi to Terry one of the shift managers also a nice guy.

And if you ever get to the MGM they all know me there also, that was my other hangout.

And don't get me wrong I was not calling you a liar about the 80 hands, just never saw it .

NormA

Norm A

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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Thanks MVS. I was making the same error without realising it (posting the 4 at the end of column one instead of limiting to a count of 20, then continuing on the next column with the remainder of 3).

Much appreciated.

Cheers

Chief

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In my limited experience..."Live Dealer" 8 deck online shoes are in general 10 to 15 hands shorter than in Bricks and mortar casinos. Accordingly... I have to reduce my expectations when playing online. Playing U1D1M2 at the Sydney Casino ...I look for my winning shoes to be in the 30's...Online...I'm happy to get in the mid to high 20's. I wonder sometimes whether I should adjust my STOP/LOSS because of this anomaly. I generally play a -12 STOP/LOSS when utilising U1D1M2 for both online and real casino shoes but on reflection....Hmmmm?

I don't play on line so I can't advise about that but I think -12 is a sensible stop loss for U1D1M2. I do have lots of experience with that and I also used -12 with that progression. I do not think our 10,000 shoe test of U1D1 M2 OTB4L was a fluke. The fact is, if you can get back down to a 2 bet ANYWHERE in the shoe, you won! And all you had to do to accomplish that is win half your hands which is the given odds of the game. For instance, suppose you lose a 1234567 and then win an 8765432: You only won half your hands but your score for that "bet pyramid" is +7 MINIMUM! And that is the lowest your score could be. For every bet you lose getting back to 2, you win an extra unit and it is highly likely you'll lose a few. That progression seems to defy the odds of the game. It seems to reward you for LOSING hands!

Also there may be more to the fact that Norm doesn't see 80+ shoes than meets the eye. Norm plays high stakes rooms exclusively and high stakes rooms are nearly always new cards every shoe. Think about it.

Yeah, I know, I'm always looking at the dark side. But that's my job!

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I don't play on line so I can't advise about that but I think -12 is a sensible stop loss for U1D1M2. I do have lots of experience with that and I also used -12 with that progression. I do not think our 10,000 shoe test of U1D1 M2 OTB4L was a fluke. The fact is, if you can get back down to a 2 bet ANYWHERE in the shoe, you won! And all you had to do to accomplish that is win half your hands which is the given odds of the game. For instance, suppose you lose a 1234567 and then win an 8765432: You only won half your hands but your score for that "bet pyramid" is +7 MINIMUM! And that is the lowest your score could be. For every bet you lose getting back to 2, you win an extra unit and it is highly likely you'll lose a few. That progression seems to defy the odds of the game.

Also there may be more to the fact that Norm doesn't see 80+ shoes than meets the eye. Norm plays high stakes rooms exclusively and high stakes rooms are nearly always new cards every shoe. Think about it.

Yeah, I know, I'm always looking at the dark side. But that's my job!

After thinking about it, another thing that causes me not to see 80+ shoes, is that I very seldom play to the end of the shoe as

I am out of the with my stop win or loss by then.

NormA

Norm A

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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Did you move from Vegas? I have often wondered if Red Rock removes some of the smaller cards so the dragon does not hit on the weekends. At the casinos in Chicago it hits about twice a shoe. An rare occasions there is not one in a shoe. One weekend when I was there it hit only twice in one day. The table had an extreme amounts of naturals like there were extra big cards in the decks. And the ss was player in both shoes. This was the same weekend that this shoe was played. I was there again later during the week and it was back to normal. But they are getting 72-76 hands in a shoe on a regular basis. I know they bring their cards out boxed and ready to go in the shuffler rather than taking them out of the boxes at the table. Guess that would be a sign that they have set them up to start out the way they want. Made sense to me when I read that it the manual and recalled that they didn't spread their cards. I am use to the casinos in Illinois. They take all the cards out at the table and spread them so you can see that they are all there and have not been tampered with.

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Are you going to the seminar in August? I have a lot of questions and Clifton said I should attend it even though it is for roulette. Will be nice to put faces to posts and meet others that are using this system. It is nice to have a system that is actually played and backed by real people that you can talk to.

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Are you going to the seminar in August? I have a lot of questions and Clifton said I should attend it even though it is for roulette. Will be nice to put faces to posts and meet others that are using this system. It is nice to have a system that is actually played and backed by real people that you can talk to.

Good points Sheree! I will be there God willing. The seminar is not so much about Roulette as it is about NOR. The advantage of playing NOR on a roulette table is you can play for lower stakes. This makes casinos far more comfortable for many members. Another advantage is you can play 3 cards at once And you can "trade bets". For instance when a big bet comes up, you might want to make that bet on the card that is winning the most rather than on the card that is losing the most.

We had a 72 year old member who ONLY played S40 on 6 cards at once by standing between 2 Roulette tables. He claimed that he never lost even so much as a single shoe. I suspect that was true.

But also I want you guys to hear what Dennis Foley has to say. He lived with the dark side of the table. What I say is hearsay. But Dennis talks right through the horse's mouth. And he is a complete who'[s who in gambling. He can rate me better than anybody can because he knows everybody else.

Sheree, it is normal to be a little skeptical at first. Most members here were scammed before they came here to BTC. BUT, they are still here - some, like Dennis, for 20 years or more. Nobody on this planet is right about everything! But given enough time you will figure out that I'm right the most often, perhaps because I have had the most experience.

Most players start out doing exactly the wrong thing. Then they go to some "pro" who gets them playing even worse. Then, if they are lucky they find me. And this is where they stay. You'll see.

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